Should WIZards use WISdom or intelligence?

[rusty_shackleford]

I'm just saying, they ain't called an intard.

[Oyster Sauce]

Might for damage, dexterity for attack speed, perception for interrupts, intellect for duration and area of effect, and resolve for concentration. This way, you can specialize your wizard

[rusty_shackleford]

This way, you can specialize your wizard

Feel like I could make a thread on this by itself. But I will think on it for a bit.

[Tweed]

Wizard means wise man, but you already knew that.

[Tweed]

This way, you can specialize your wizard

Feel like I could make a thread on this by itself. But I will think on it for a bit.

We already made a thread with you two sucking off Sawyer, we don't need another one.

[The_Mask]

Wizard means wise man, but you already knew that.

This is why in Planescape: Torment the wizard's most important attribute is Wisdom, of course.

Chris Avellone knew this thread would pop up a quarter of a century ago, and foresaw everything.

[Stack of Turtles]

I'm just saying, they ain't called an intard.

Demograph previously referred to the idea of a "Charizard", but I think it would technically just be a chard.

[Acrux]

Gnome abilities should be INT based as well.

[J1M]

Wizdom sounds like something you shouldn't type into a search engine.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Most mages in contemporary Western fantasy are not actually Wise like Gandalf. They do not have spiritual insight or divinity bestowed to them by God. The typical depiction of a wizard in modern fantasy is that he has studied books and memorized the incantations of spells. He just recites the incantation, maybe uses reagents like powders, and volia the spell is cast. So basically he has a good memory for formulas. Having a good memory for formulas ≠ IQ or intelligence or wisdom.

Eastern fantasy magic tends to be cast by willing the qi/mana/chakra/whatever inside your body. Ie, a swordsman wills the qi in his body to give his leaps more strength, or manifest it into a fireball. That too has nothing to do with intelligence or wisdom either, since even dumb people can do it. You typically open up the qi pathways by exercise, amass more qi by finding rare ingredients to craft and eat a pill, etc.

[J1M]

If D&D 5e changed Wizards to Wisdom they could remove Intellect as a stat.

[DemoGraph]

This way, you can specialize your wizard

Feel like I could make a thread on this by itself. But I will think on it for a bit.

Ars Magica already thought about it.

[Demonic Fate]

Attribute systems always cause far more problems than they solve, and the problems they do solve can usually be solved in other ways (eg. talents/flaws).

Skills-first is the way.

[rusty_shackleford]

Attribute systems always cause far more problems than they solve, and the problems they do solve can usually be solved in other ways (eg. talents/flaws).

Skills-first is the way.

Feel like I got a thread on this topic somewhere but it's very redundant to have to pick the wizard class then pick the wizard attribute.

Attributes(ability scores) made more sense when you rolled and THEN used them to pick a class. That is, attributes as usually depicted.

[rusty_shackleford]

Attribute systems always cause far more problems than they solve, and the problems they do solve can usually be solved in other ways (eg. talents/flaws).

Skills-first is the way.

Feel like I got a thread on this topic somewhere but it's very redundant to have to pick the wizard class then pick the wizard attribute.

Attributes(ability scores) made more sense when you rolled and THEN used them to pick a class. That is, attributes as usually depicted.

Being able to customize abilities is a fun form of progression, adding this to my list of "topics I need to make"

[Rand]

No.
Neither.

Magic is WILL work.

Intelligence just makes you live long enough to get decent at it by not doing anything stupid.

[rusty_shackleford]

Feel like I got a thread on this topic somewhere but it's very redundant to have to pick the wizard class then pick the wizard attribute.

Closest is probably this
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3660-meaningful-cho ... r-creation

[A Chinese opium den]

Wizards using the same stat as practically every other magical caster would be soulless and gay, they have to use int.

[J1M]

Wizards using the same stat as practically every other magical caster would be soulless and gay, they have to use int.

Looks more like they should be using CHA.

Bards, paladins, sorcerers, and warlocks use Charisma as their spellcasting ability.

[Stack of Turtles]

Wizards should use dex for the intricate hand gestures.

[Oyster Sauce]

Learning spells is 1% intspiration and 99% perspiration

[J1M]

Learning spells is 1% intspiration and 99% perspiration

For 50% of casters it is 100% about having clear skin.

[Eyestabber]

So ahn. Can we talk about Wisdom? What is it even supposed to represent? Faith? Perception? And don't be a ****** and quote some manual's definition of that stat, I read those and they suck. I can tolerate Charisma being a measure of how well people react to your presence, regardless of source (looks, leadership, "presence" or whatever), but Wisdom? How can a moron be wise? Why are clerics and druids better at seeing and hearing things? To me this has always been a failed stat and no wonder other systems don't bother reproducing it.

[Oyster Sauce]

How can a moron be wise?

[J1M]

So ahn. Can we talk about Wisdom? What is it even supposed to represent? Faith? Perception? And don't be a ****** and quote some manual's definition of that stat, I read those and they suck. I can tolerate Charisma being a measure of how well people react to your presence, regardless of source (looks, leadership, "presence" or whatever), but Wisdom? How can a moron be wise? Why are clerics and druids better at seeing and hearing things? To me this has always been a failed stat and no wonder other systems don't bother reproducing it.

They don't see and hear better, they know what to pay attention to.

A person with life experience can impart wisdom on you that a college student with high grades can't.

Etc

[Eyestabber]

So ahn. Can we talk about Wisdom? What is it even supposed to represent? Faith? Perception? And don't be a ****** and quote some manual's definition of that stat, I read those and they suck. I can tolerate Charisma being a measure of how well people react to your presence, regardless of source (looks, leadership, "presence" or whatever), but Wisdom? How can a moron be wise? Why are clerics and druids better at seeing and hearing things? To me this has always been a failed stat and no wonder other systems don't bother reproducing it.

They don't see and hear better, they know what to pay attention to.

A person with life experience can impart wisdom on you that a college student with high grades can't.

Etc

Same problem as with the previous post: the two things are not mechanically connected. A 15 y/o can have maxed out wisdom and a veteran warrior can dump it. Every attempt to justify the stat does so by attempting to tie it to something else, which just proves my point: WIS doesn't stand on its own.

[rusty_shackleford]

So ahn. Can we talk about Wisdom? What is it even supposed to represent? Faith? Perception? And don't be a ****** and quote some manual's definition of that stat, I read those and they suck. I can tolerate Charisma being a measure of how well people react to your presence, regardless of source (looks, leadership, "presence" or whatever), but Wisdom? How can a moron be wise? Why are clerics and druids better at seeing and hearing things? To me this has always been a failed stat and no wonder other systems don't bother reproducing it.

They don't see and hear better, they know what to pay attention to.

A person with life experience can impart wisdom on you that a college student with high grades can't.

Etc

Same problem as with the previous post: the two things are not mechanically connected. A 15 y/o can have maxed out wisdom and a veteran warrior can dump it. Every attempt to justify the stat does so by attempting to tie it to something else, which just proves my point: WIS doesn't stand on its own.

Some attributes are innate, some are partially innate and partially learned, some entirely learned. It's a bit of a mess.
There's no effective way to increase your intelligence outside of fantasy magic. It is pretty much entirely genetic past a certain minimum environmental threshold.

Intelligence often doubles for knowledge however, which is very different. Knowledge is learned. Likewise, wisdom(somewhat similar but not quite) is learned. Both are closer to skills than attributes.

An example that blurs the line is strength. Potential strength is genetic (ehh, let's ignore steroids), but actual strength is 'learned'.

Another good topic to do... Maybe mix with another one here...

[rusty_shackleford]

Perhaps not a good idea to to attempt to treat all characteristics equally. Lots of people liked that STR in D&D had a 18/xx %, it was unique. Maybe each characteristic should be treated uniquely.
Just a thought.

[Eyestabber]

They don't see and hear better, they know what to pay attention to.

A person with life experience can impart wisdom on you that a college student with high grades can't.

Etc

Same problem as with the previous post: the two things are not mechanically connected. A 15 y/o can have maxed out wisdom and a veteran warrior can dump it. Every attempt to justify the stat does so by attempting to tie it to something else, which just proves my point: WIS doesn't stand on its own.

Some attributes are innate, some are partially innate and partially learned, some entirely learned. It's a bit of a mess.
There's no effective way to increase your intelligence outside of fantasy magic. It is pretty much entirely genetic past a certain minimum environmental threshold.

Intelligence often doubles for knowledge however, which is very different. Knowledge is learned. Likewise, wisdom(somewhat similar but not quite) is learned. Both are closer to skills than attributes.

An example that blurs the line is strength. Potential strength is genetic (ehh, let's ignore steroids), but actual strength is 'learned'.

Another good topic to do... Maybe mix with another one here...

You can increase your intelligence by watching Rick and Morty and playing Paradox games. But anyway, we all know the answer on Wisdom: it's a gamey stat that groups together Perception (noticing things), Intuition and divine connection or "faith" or whatever. Sawyer and his ilk would later look into this and go "huh, I can make my own gamey stat" and that's how we got muscle wizard (the "power" attribute from Pillars of Eternity).

[rusty_shackleford]

Same problem as with the previous post: the two things are not mechanically connected. A 15 y/o can have maxed out wisdom and a veteran warrior can dump it. Every attempt to justify the stat does so by attempting to tie it to something else, which just proves my point: WIS doesn't stand on its own.

Some attributes are innate, some are partially innate and partially learned, some entirely learned. It's a bit of a mess.
There's no effective way to increase your intelligence outside of fantasy magic. It is pretty much entirely genetic past a certain minimum environmental threshold.

Intelligence often doubles for knowledge however, which is very different. Knowledge is learned. Likewise, wisdom(somewhat similar but not quite) is learned. Both are closer to skills than attributes.

An example that blurs the line is strength. Potential strength is genetic (ehh, let's ignore steroids), but actual strength is 'learned'.

Another good topic to do... Maybe mix with another one here...

You can increase your intelligence by watching Rick and Morty and playing Paradox games. But anyway, we all know the answer on Wisdom: it's a gamey stat that groups together Perception (noticing things), Intuition and divine connection or "faith" or whatever. Sawyer and his ilk would later look into this and go "huh, I can make my own gamey stat" and that's how we got muscle wizard (the "power" attribute from Pillars of Eternity).

"Power" is gamey but so is strength itself. What stops a wizard from just pumping iron and gaining a bunch of strength over the course of half a year?