Does the Hero's Journey apply to video games?

[rusty_shackleford]

I dislike the concept of the hero's journey. I see it as an attempt to create something abstract enough that near any story that features a young male hero can fit.
But if we look at video games, a lot of them don't actually embody it at all. Perhaps some of the early ones when stories just started being put into games more regularly(e.g., Zelda OoT). But in general, most games don't fit the mold.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

It's academic nonsense trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

[rusty_shackleford]

It's academic nonsense trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

Nonsense or not, we know it has been used to guide the design of a lot of stories for the past half-century.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

It's academic nonsense trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

Nonsense or not, we know it has been used to guide the design of a lot of stories for the past half-century.

There is a lot of stuff that institutions push on people and try to pretend that they are "the" way to write. The "Save the Cat!" formula has been the Hollywood scriptwriter's playbook which is why all Hollywood movies feel the same and you can predict exactly what is happening by X minute mark. "Okay, at X minutes into the movie, the hero will be having a dark night of the soul moment, which will be followed by this next scene where the hero comes up with a plan and sets off for the final battle. Camera cuts to what the bad guys in power are doing...". But that gets more into the overall issues with the entertainment industry.

If you go back to the age of TV, there was an immediate feedback loop for the quality of shows. Low quality shows got low nielsen ratings, which means that the TV broadcasting company couldn't charge as much for their advertising slots for that show, which means that bad shows get axed and good shows lived. Nowadays, the entertainment industry has been captured from the bottom up through the HR department, and now writing positions are largely nepotistic, handed out to reward loyal followers to the cause or friends and family. Bad writers fail their way upward. That's why despite movies having a budget of hundreds of millions of dollars, they can't be bothered to spend a few ten thousand dollars or a hundred grand contracting a good writer to write a good story. You also have the production process issue where even if there are somehow good writers on the "writing team", the scripts get "redrafted" over and over until they lose what might have made them unique in the first place.

[Oyster Sauce]

stop tabbing out and finish your movie you zoomer

[rusty_shackleford]

stop tabbing out and finish your movie you zoomer

I have multiple monitors

[OnTilt]

As a story model it's fine and probably the most successful overall. I think trying to adhere to it too strictly as a formula runs the risk of feeling predictable and derivative -- but the urge to avoid this intentionally is exactly what causes the "subvert their expectations" crowd, which I find to just be telling bad stories on purpose. Some things just work.

I don't think it applies to videogames in general. It can, but probably only in games that are very linear, where the player doesn't actually have an impact on the direction the story takes. If you were to try to force it upon a story where the player is supposed to have agency, it's going to end up feeling forced and railroaded.

[Oyster Sauce]

stop tabbing out and finish your movie you zoomer

I have multiple monitors

even worse, you're just missing chunks of the movie instead of pausing

[Val the Moofia Boss]

"Subverting expectations" has nothing to do with some model. It originates from spite towards the audience ("you expected your franchise movie about heroic characters to have heroic characters? Well have THIS!") and loathing towards what is good and holy. Or being afraid of being mocked for portraying what is good aka cowardice. The "subversions" aren't even novel anymore. People have been subverting the superhero genre for 30 years now. Evil Superman was already done back then.

It's now "subversive" to have a story about an intact family. It's now subversive to have a story about a hero who is confident and punishes wrongdoers severely. Telling stories about virtuous characters is subversive at this point.

[Tangerine]

It's academic nonsense trying to fit square pegs into round holes.

Nonsense or not, we know it has been used to guide the design of a lot of stories for the past half-century.

There is a lot of stuff that institutions push on people and try to pretend that they are "the" way to write. The "Save the Cat!" formula has been the Hollywood scriptwriter's playbook which is why all Hollywood movies feel the same and you can predict exactly what is happening by X minute mark. "Okay, at X minutes into the movie, the hero will be having a dark night of the soul moment, which will be followed by this next scene where the hero comes up with a plan and sets off for the final battle. Camera cuts to what the bad guys in power are doing...". But that gets more into the overall issues with the entertainment industry.

If you go back to the age of TV, there was an immediate feedback loop for the quality of shows. Low quality shows got low nielsen ratings, which means that the TV broadcasting company couldn't charge as much for their advertising slots for that show, which means that bad shows get axed and good shows lived. Nowadays, the entertainment industry has been captured from the bottom up through the HR department, and now writing positions are largely nepotistic, handed out to reward loyal followers to the cause or friends and family. Bad writers fail their way upward. That's why despite movies having a budget of hundreds of millions of dollars, they can't be bothered to spend a few ten thousand dollars or a hundred grand contracting a good writer to write a good story. You also have the production process issue where even if there are somehow good writers on the "writing team", the scripts get "redrafted" over and over until they lose what might have made them unique in the first place.

Do you disagree that this is a common story structure?

A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Do you disagree that this is a common story structure?

A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.

Common today yes.

[rusty_shackleford]

It's vague enough that if you squint really hard most good stories will fit the pattern

[Tangerine]

Do you disagree that this is a common story structure?

A hero ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons on his fellow man.

Common today yes.

► Show Spoiler

The Odyssey:
Odysseus ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Cyclops, Sirens, Scylla and Charybdis are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow wisdom and rightful kingship on his fellow man.

Gilgamesh:
Gilgamesh ventures forth from the world of Uruk into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Humbaba, the Bull of Heaven, and Utnapishtim are there encountered and a decisive victory over mortality's meaning is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of wise rulership on his fellow man.

The Aeneid:
Aeneas ventures forth from the world of burning Troy into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces of gods, monsters, and prophetic visions are there encountered and a decisive victory over destiny is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of Roman civilization on his fellow man.

Beowulf:
Beowulf ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Grendel, Grendel's mother, and the dragon are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of protection and heroic legacy on his fellow man.

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight:
Gawain ventures forth from the world of Camelot into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces of the Green Knight and magical tests of virtue are there encountered and a decisive victory through moral knowledge is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of humility and wisdom on his fellow man.

Journey to the West:
Sun Wukong ventures forth from the world of imprisonment into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces of demons, monsters, and celestial bureaucracy are there encountered and a decisive victory of enlightenment is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of Buddhist scriptures on his fellow man.

Perseus:
Perseus ventures forth from the world of Seriphos into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Medusa and the sea monster Cetus are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of protection and kingship on his fellow man.

Jason and the Argonauts:
Jason ventures forth from the world of Iolcos into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like bronze bulls, the dragon, and clashing rocks are there encountered and a decisive victory over the Golden Fleece is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of rightful kingship on his fellow man.

If you want to argue it's overly broad to the point of being useless, that's one thing, but the hero's journey is not a "how to write" as it was an attempt to categorize a bunch of elements many stories shared under one label.

[Stack of Turtles]

Do you disagree that this is a common story structure?

Common today yes.

► Show Spoiler

The Odyssey:
Odysseus ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Cyclops, Sirens, Scylla and Charybdis are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow wisdom and rightful kingship on his fellow man.

Gilgamesh:
Gilgamesh ventures forth from the world of Uruk into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Humbaba, the Bull of Heaven, and Utnapishtim are there encountered and a decisive victory over mortality's meaning is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of wise rulership on his fellow man.

The Aeneid:
Aeneas ventures forth from the world of burning Troy into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces of gods, monsters, and prophetic visions are there encountered and a decisive victory over destiny is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of Roman civilization on his fellow man.

Beowulf:
Beowulf ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Grendel, Grendel's mother, and the dragon are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of protection and heroic legacy on his fellow man.

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight:
Gawain ventures forth from the world of Camelot into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces of the Green Knight and magical tests of virtue are there encountered and a decisive victory through moral knowledge is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of humility and wisdom on his fellow man.

Journey to the West:
Sun Wukong ventures forth from the world of imprisonment into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces of demons, monsters, and celestial bureaucracy are there encountered and a decisive victory of enlightenment is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of Buddhist scriptures on his fellow man.

Perseus:
Perseus ventures forth from the world of Seriphos into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Medusa and the sea monster Cetus are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of protection and kingship on his fellow man.

Jason and the Argonauts:
Jason ventures forth from the world of Iolcos into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like bronze bulls, the dragon, and clashing rocks are there encountered and a decisive victory over the Golden Fleece is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of rightful kingship on his fellow man.

If you want to argue it's overly broad to the point of being useless, that's one thing, but the hero's journey is not a "how to write" as it was an attempt to categorize a bunch of elements many stories shared under one label.

I know enough about enough of these stories to know you really have to torture them to get them to confess to this.

[Stack of Turtles]

Common today yes.

► Show Spoiler

The Odyssey:
Odysseus ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Cyclops, Sirens, Scylla and Charybdis are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow wisdom and rightful kingship on his fellow man.

Gilgamesh:
Gilgamesh ventures forth from the world of Uruk into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Humbaba, the Bull of Heaven, and Utnapishtim are there encountered and a decisive victory over mortality's meaning is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of wise rulership on his fellow man.

The Aeneid:
Aeneas ventures forth from the world of burning Troy into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces of gods, monsters, and prophetic visions are there encountered and a decisive victory over destiny is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of Roman civilization on his fellow man.

Beowulf:
Beowulf ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Grendel, Grendel's mother, and the dragon are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of protection and heroic legacy on his fellow man.

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight:
Gawain ventures forth from the world of Camelot into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces of the Green Knight and magical tests of virtue are there encountered and a decisive victory through moral knowledge is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of humility and wisdom on his fellow man.

Journey to the West:
Sun Wukong ventures forth from the world of imprisonment into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces of demons, monsters, and celestial bureaucracy are there encountered and a decisive victory of enlightenment is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of Buddhist scriptures on his fellow man.

Perseus:
Perseus ventures forth from the world of Seriphos into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Medusa and the sea monster Cetus are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of protection and kingship on his fellow man.

Jason and the Argonauts:
Jason ventures forth from the world of Iolcos into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like bronze bulls, the dragon, and clashing rocks are there encountered and a decisive victory over the Golden Fleece is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of rightful kingship on his fellow man.

If you want to argue it's overly broad to the point of being useless, that's one thing, but the hero's journey is not a "how to write" as it was an attempt to categorize a bunch of elements many stories shared under one label.

I know enough about enough of these stories to know you really have to torture them to get them to confess to this.

I don't want to spoil this for you but Beowulf does not come back with the power to bestow any boons on anybody

[rusty_shackleford]

hero's journey only applies to beowulf if you extract a subset of the story

[Stack of Turtles]

hero's journey only applies to beowulf if you extract a subset of the story

That's true for all of them. Most ancient stories are complex tales where things are lost that are never fully restored. There's not a single one of those stories that really goes like the pat description, in my opinion.

[rusty_shackleford]

hero's journey only applies to beowulf if you extract a subset of the story

actually not sure if I even agree with this because hero's journey doesn't really apply to beowulf unless we really reduce it to just a couple things near every adventure story has

[DemoGraph]

"Newton's laws are overrated and incorrect" the thread.

[ThulsaDoomer]

If you apply the Heroes Journey, or the Monomyth it's based on, rigidly to many video games then no, there isn't a cut and dry approach to the method. Not that surprising, however, since it's innately a guideline for newbies to follow that drills into you the foundations of what makes for a reliable progression or in this case, journey, of a protagonist. Add to the fact a lot of games allow the hero or player to outright deny certain steps of the guideline, and that muddies it further.

It has its place, and it always will, but I feel the focus is on subverting traditional ideas of literature now rather than trying to find new ways to spin those kinds of stories. Interactive media is in my opinion the best format available to immerse someone in a story, but currently it's being used for ideological preaching and ego driven indulgence. Add to the fact the heroes journey is seen as a traditionally male driven concept, and you'll see why its no longer touted around as much as it used to be.

[Tangerine]

hero's journey only applies to beowulf if you extract a subset of the story

actually not sure if I even agree with this because hero's journey doesn't really apply to beowulf unless we really reduce it to just a couple things near every adventure story has

It applies to the Grendel/Grendel's mother stories, since he goes into strange lands, kills the monsters, and comes back with riches and prestige for his people. The dragon story is where it doesn't fit.

[Tangerine]

Common today yes.

► Show Spoiler

The Odyssey:
Odysseus ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Cyclops, Sirens, Scylla and Charybdis are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow wisdom and rightful kingship on his fellow man.

Gilgamesh:
Gilgamesh ventures forth from the world of Uruk into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Humbaba, the Bull of Heaven, and Utnapishtim are there encountered and a decisive victory over mortality's meaning is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of wise rulership on his fellow man.

The Aeneid:
Aeneas ventures forth from the world of burning Troy into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces of gods, monsters, and prophetic visions are there encountered and a decisive victory over destiny is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of Roman civilization on his fellow man.

Beowulf:
Beowulf ventures forth from the world of common day into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Grendel, Grendel's mother, and the dragon are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of protection and heroic legacy on his fellow man.

Sir Gawain and the Green Knight:
Gawain ventures forth from the world of Camelot into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces of the Green Knight and magical tests of virtue are there encountered and a decisive victory through moral knowledge is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of humility and wisdom on his fellow man.

Journey to the West:
Sun Wukong ventures forth from the world of imprisonment into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces of demons, monsters, and celestial bureaucracy are there encountered and a decisive victory of enlightenment is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of Buddhist scriptures on his fellow man.

Perseus:
Perseus ventures forth from the world of Seriphos into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like Medusa and the sea monster Cetus are there encountered and a decisive victory is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of protection and kingship on his fellow man.

Jason and the Argonauts:
Jason ventures forth from the world of Iolcos into a region of supernatural wonder: fabulous forces like bronze bulls, the dragon, and clashing rocks are there encountered and a decisive victory over the Golden Fleece is won: the hero comes back from this mysterious adventure with the power to bestow boons of rightful kingship on his fellow man.

If you want to argue it's overly broad to the point of being useless, that's one thing, but the hero's journey is not a "how to write" as it was an attempt to categorize a bunch of elements many stories shared under one label.

I know enough about enough of these stories to know you really have to torture them to get them to confess to this.

Campbell used Arthurian legend and Greek myth to form his theories. That they're wishy-washy and can fit almost any adventure story is a product of him trying to get all his selected samples to fit together.

[Stack of Turtles]

hero's journey only applies to beowulf if you extract a subset of the story

actually not sure if I even agree with this because hero's journey doesn't really apply to beowulf unless we really reduce it to just a couple things near every adventure story has

It applies to the Grendel/Grendel's mother stories, since he goes into strange lands, kills the monsters, and comes back with riches and prestige for his people. The dragon story is where it doesn't fit.

Grendel shows up and crashes a party, Beowulf doesn't go anywhere, mythic otherworld or not.

You're asking for an interpretation of the concept so loose that every vacation slideshow is a Hero's Journey.

[aimlesshealer]

It's stupid, cultish nonsense that got trendy with Hollywood ****. The stories Joseph Campbell cites don't even fit into his own pattern, only bits and pieces of it. It's got about as much universal truth as Scientology. Completely unnessecary, and writers who buy into it are hamstringing themselves.

[ThulsaDoomer]

It's stupid, cultish nonsense that got trendy with Hollywood ****. The stories Joseph Campbell cites don't even fit into his own pattern, only bits and pieces of it. It's got about as much universal truth as Scientology. Completely unnessecary, and writers who buy into it are hamstringing themselves.

In fairness, **** steal anything the White man creates that isn't nailed down, inserting themselves into our cultural stories and myths is simply their parasitic nature. That doesn't refute the concept, I just personally feel it's a rather dogmatic system that as you point out, only limits serious writers. It's never a good idea to obey any kind of literary device to the letter and if your rhetoric and passion is there, people will read whatever it is you put out.

End of the day, the Heroes Journey was a way to explain certain story phenomenon or patterns, at least from what I know of its origins. In school there was this odd emphasis at the time about symbolism and such, which to me is bizarre, as most symbolism tends to be pure happenstance and most writers are not even conscious of all the connections within their own work. Speaking from personal experience and people giving me feedback privately, there are a lot of elements you could chalk up to these kind of systems that I didn't give a single thought towards when writing or planning things out. Often I believe there is a significant subconscious factor to plot writing and a lot of it is borrowed from your favourite authors and their own prose, designs, etc. For this reason, I'd say it makes it very difficult to attribute things like the Heroes Journey to a games plot unless the writer explicitly tells you.

[Tangerine]

actually not sure if I even agree with this because hero's journey doesn't really apply to beowulf unless we really reduce it to just a couple things near every adventure story has

It applies to the Grendel/Grendel's mother stories, since he goes into strange lands, kills the monsters, and comes back with riches and prestige for his people. The dragon story is where it doesn't fit.

Grendel shows up and crashes a party, Beowulf doesn't go anywhere, mythic otherworld or not.

You're asking for an interpretation of the concept so loose that every vacation slideshow is a Hero's Journey.

Beowulf goes to Geatland Denmark because of Grendel.

Edit: Corrected destination by @Stack of Turtles

[maidenhaver IV]

Campbell was on to something, but unless I'm mistaken, he was a low-down psychologist and grifter, so he didn't know why he was on the right track. It turns out, linguists can spitball the antiquity of a fairy tale, through narrative structure and grammar. Comparative mythology isn't universalist, but tied to languages and movement of races. Beowulf, the Grendel part, not the Dragon (a late addition), is a newer version of Jack and the Beanstalk, which is a story older than civilization as we know it. Jack and Faust are a couple of the fairy tales that predate belief in gods, and descended in varied forms, through Indo-European languages. In the earliest days, we believed in Sky Dad, giants, and heroes.

[SoLong]

It's just a highly simplified model describing character devolpment. You might as well ask if "beginning, rising action, climax, falling action, denouement" applies to video games.

The answer is: Yes, but only if the game has character development / a linear story structure.

It's important to remember that the hero's journey was developed for literature, not movies or video games. So people trying to apply the model as if every piece of entertainment media needs to fit the model are idiots and/or insane.

[Stack of Turtles]

It applies to the Grendel/Grendel's mother stories, since he goes into strange lands, kills the monsters, and comes back with riches and prestige for his people. The dragon story is where it doesn't fit.

Grendel shows up and crashes a party, Beowulf doesn't go anywhere, mythic otherworld or not.

You're asking for an interpretation of the concept so loose that every vacation slideshow is a Hero's Journey.

Beowulf goes to Geatland because of Grendel.

I was going to drop this because it seemed pointless to fight over it, but now Kalarion has jumped into the fray with reactions so I gotta point this out so he feels properly ashamed:

Beowulf is from Geatland. He goes to Denmark.

And if going to Denmark to attend a party at the mead hall of a guy who gets attacked by monsters makes a story a Hero's Journey, then so does any vacation slideshow where someone visited any place currently experiencing Cultural Enrichment.

[maidenhaver IV]

Correct, going outside is a Monomyth.