Savescumming, respeccing, and cheating in RPGs

[Xenich]

Essentially, this game is quite easy in a lot of ways so every time there is an update or DLC the devs try to make it harder. When it first came out I reinvigorated the roman empire and I don't remember there being this much gay stuff. If you've played their other games they do the same thing, the base version is easy and there are not many features and then they keep adding stuff (for better or worse).
There's a ton of different things you can do if your son is gay. For instance, one thing you might do is to murder your gay child. But obviously if you aren't playing a high intrigue character that's going to be very difficult and you will get found out. One other thing you'd do is force the gay son to join a holy order or become a priest. The devs are so smart and really want to balance the game so they added a BS mechanic to counteract you from doing stuff like that and you are pretty much forced to play with the gay son. If it was just a symbol that showed he was gay you might be able to ignore it, but there are events where characters do gay stuff and other weird stuff.

Does the game progress if you are found out or does it just basically cause you to lose? If it allows for an alternate progression from that, might be cool, though the game suspiciously sounds like it is a propaganda jerkoff release to "educate" people on the evils of being a bigot , basically DLC Veilguard style.

The only lose condition is if you die without an heir, so having a son who isn't gay and is having a lot of sex is ideal. You absolutely can keep playing the game if you are found out for murdering your son you just get several bad modifiers. As I said, the original modifiers of the game weren't that bad they just kept adding more, they added something called legitimacy that always seems to take a hit during stuff like this.
I would just argue that having a gay son shouldn't be in the game at all but these Europeans kept jerking off to Yuri(which one is the gay guy one? I should ask Vergil) porn and watching GOT so everything is about incest and gay sex.

There should be some positives for even being ruthless as such. Execute the son publicly should cause negatives, but also instill fear and garner support from any kingdoms who have intolerances to it. Though as you have described, this isn't a kingdom simulator, but a ***** jerkoff fest for "modern audiences" it seems.

[Nooneatall]

Does the game progress if you are found out or does it just basically cause you to lose? If it allows for an alternate progression from that, might be cool, though the game suspiciously sounds like it is a propaganda jerkoff release to "educate" people on the evils of being a bigot , basically DLC Veilguard style.

The only lose condition is if you die without an heir, so having a son who isn't gay and is having a lot of sex is ideal. You absolutely can keep playing the game if you are found out for murdering your son you just get several bad modifiers. As I said, the original modifiers of the game weren't that bad they just kept adding more, they added something called legitimacy that always seems to take a hit during stuff like this.
I would just argue that having a gay son shouldn't be in the game at all but these Europeans kept jerking off to Yuri(which one is the gay guy one? I should ask Vergil) porn and watching GOT so everything is about incest and gay sex.

There should be some positives for even being ruthless as such. Execute the son publicly should cause negatives, but also instill fear and garner support from any kingdoms who have intolerances to it. Though as you have described, this isn't a kingdom simulator, but a ***** jerkoff fest for "modern audiences" it seems.

I think I can rest my case here

[Faceless_Sentinel]

I'm struggling to think of an RPG I last played that actually had traps. I guess Wasteland 3, but it's just on containers.

You don't naming games, Rusty, you loosing argument. At least name this rpgs that you played.

You're asking me to prove a negative.

You assumed that save scumminh ruined RPGs because devs start developing games around save scumming but you can't name any RPG that is developed around save scumming.
I asked you to name "new RPGs" that you played that don't have traps in it, you also don't answer. You doing bad job to defend your position.

[rusty_shackleford]

I asked you to name "new RPGs" that you played that don't have traps in it, you also don't answer.

I stated that I'd be hard pressed to name ones that actually do have traps.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Does the game progress if you are found out or does it just basically cause you to lose? If it allows for an alternate progression from that, might be cool, though the game suspiciously sounds like it is a propaganda jerkoff release to "educate" people on the evils of being a bigot , basically DLC Veilguard style.

The only lose condition is if you die without an heir, so having a son who isn't gay and is having a lot of sex is ideal. You absolutely can keep playing the game if you are found out for murdering your son you just get several bad modifiers. As I said, the original modifiers of the game weren't that bad they just kept adding more, they added something called legitimacy that always seems to take a hit during stuff like this.
I would just argue that having a gay son shouldn't be in the game at all but these Europeans kept jerking off to Yuri(which one is the gay guy one? I should ask Vergil) porn and watching GOT so everything is about incest and gay sex.

There should be some positives for even being ruthless as such. Execute the son publicly should cause negatives, but also instill fear and garner support from any kingdoms who have intolerances to it.

There is no such thing in Crusader Kings 3, only negatives. Why killing gay son in medival age is a bad thing, ask ******* from paradox.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

I asked you to name "new RPGs" that you played that don't have traps in it, you also don't answer.

I stated that I'd be hard pressed to name ones that actually do have traps.

Name modern RPGs that doesn't have traps in them, Rusty, is this so hard? Also explain what do you mean by trap.

[Vergil]

I downloaded a trainer to give me infinite health to beat a boss in Lies of P the other day

[rusty_shackleford]

OK, I missed a lot of posts in the original thread(Splitting pages from 100+ page discussions isn't the easiest.) Let me know if I missed any others. There's two closely related but separate topics here if @WhiteShark wants to untangle it.

Moved those posts over because someone complained I only split off a part of the discussion.

[Tinky Winky]

I reload until I pick the npc's pocket for the item I want.

I reload until the loot table gives me the rare item.

I reload if the useless NPC I happen to like dies in battle.

I reload if I lose too much health in a fight.

I reload when I fail the speech check.

I reload if the boss doesn't die on the first round.

I reload when I don't get max stats on level.

I reload if the cool fight music bugs out.

I reload on accident.

I reload on purpose.

I reload and there's nothing you can do about it.

I don't know why most of the game devs don't just implement anti-savescumming functions in their products. Jagged Alliance 2 does save rng seeds which disallows players to just reload and re-roll the dice, and that was like 25 years ago. This should've become a standard instead of what we have now.

[Tweed]

Developing a game where consequences are an interesting part of the game instead of just a malus to be avoided takes too much effort.

[rusty_shackleford]

Developing a game where consequences are an interesting part of the game instead of just a malus to be avoided takes too much effort.

It's also something most people don't want because they want to cheat and never be inconvenienced.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Developing a game where consequences are an interesting part of the game instead of just a malus to be avoided takes too much effort.

It's also something most people don't want because they want to cheat and never be inconvenienced.

You also cheater, so it is not up to you to judge.

[A Chinese opium den]

Developing a game where consequences are an interesting part of the game instead of just a malus to be avoided takes too much effort.

It's also something most people don't want because they want to cheat and never be inconvenienced.

You also cheater, so it is not up to you to judge.

Might as well concede the point if that's all you have to say tbh.

[1998]

Lowering the difficulty mid-playthrough is also cheating btw

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Loading autosave in case you died is also cheating btw

[Element]

Loading autosave in case you died is also cheating btw

This is just low iq whining now

[rusty_shackleford]

Loading autosave in case you died is also cheating btw

This is just low iq whining now

I think it's a misunderstanding of the point. You continue until it's impossible to continue any further, and that's when you reload a game if necessary.
Ideally, games would have far less game overs and more things like in Gothic where you get knocked out and robbed when you lose a fight.

[1998]

Loading autosave in case you died is also cheating btw

Only if its mid-combat. Naheulbeuk let you save mid-combat and actually even created autosaves. So weird to die, auto-reload and find yourself back at a pretty safe, earlier stage during that encounter.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Loading autosave in case you died is also cheating btw

This is just low iq whining now

Same as complaining about other people savescumming.

[Element]

Loading autosave in case you died is also cheating btw

This is just low iq whining now

Same as complaining about other people savescumming.

The arguments against it were much more thorough than the conveyor belt of strawmen that were thrown about in response

[Faceless_Sentinel]

This is just low iq whining now

Same as complaining about other people savescumming.

The arguments against it were much more thorough than the conveyor belt of strawmen that were thrown about in response

The only argument that Rusty gave was that savescumming lead to absence of traps in modern RPGs, but when I asked him to name an modern RPG with no traps in it, he couldn't give an answer. It is you who create strawman.

[Xenich]

Same as complaining about other people savescumming.

The arguments against it were much more thorough than the conveyor belt of strawmen that were thrown about in response

The only argument that Rusty gave was that savescumming lead to absence of traps in modern RPGs, but when I asked him to name an modern RPG with no traps in it, he couldn't give an answer. It is you who create strawman.

I didn't see that as his argument. Rather what I got from it is that allowing save scumming renders many long term consequences of play a useless mechanic and due to this many games no longer have such mechanics.

Significant traps that create play hardship, cursed items, diseases, etc.. which were more common in early games of Wizardry, Might and Magic, etc... are no longer common in many modern games because developers realized people would simply "reload" if they ran into anything that was lasting.

Traps exist, but most of them are garbage minor annoyances that often are just straight low damage consequences to which most people will just take rather than reloading.

I mean, lets be honest here... how many people do you think are going to continue playing if for instance a trap has some disease, curse, etc... which creates hardship for the character until they find some way to deal with it? Most will simply reload and avoid it rather than carry that consequence later into the game looking for a resolution.

This is the same for all kinds of consequences. So, in those points, I agree with him, save scumming is detrimental to good game balance in risk vs reward systems, but there are issues with how saves are handled to stop this that create their own problems (KCD), and those are the ones I have problems with aside from the fact I could give two shits how people play their game, but I do agree that this behavior has driven game development and there needs to be a different approach that protects the integrity of the games design, but doesn't waste time trying to "libtard" people in play (ala Larian).

[Nooneatall]

In this thread I've learned that pretty much everything is cheating and I'm proud to say I'm a cheater.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Significant traps that create play hardship, cursed items, diseases, etc.. which were more common in early games of Wizardry, Might and Magic, etc... are no longer common in many modern games because developers realized people would simply "reload" if they ran into anything that was lasting.

I mean, lets be honest here... how many people do you think are going to continue playing if for instance a trap has some disease, curse, etc... which creates hardship for the character until they find some way to deal with it? Most will simply reload and avoid it rather than carry that consequence later into the game looking for a resolution.

May be because having trap that give you a curse that damages you every 5 seconds and give you –3 to all your stats until you visit priest in nearest settlement and nothing more is not actually fun or entertaining?

[rusty_shackleford]

Significant traps that create play hardship, cursed items, diseases, etc.. which were more common in early games of Wizardry, Might and Magic, etc... are no longer common in many modern games because developers realized people would simply "reload" if they ran into anything that was lasting.

I mean, lets be honest here... how many people do you think are going to continue playing if for instance a trap has some disease, curse, etc... which creates hardship for the character until they find some way to deal with it? Most will simply reload and avoid it rather than carry that consequence later into the game looking for a resolution.

May be because having trap that give you a curse that damages you every 5 seconds and give you –3 to all your stats until you visit priest in nearest settlement and nothing more is not actually fun or entertaining?

Neither is enemies doing damage, we should just remove it to not inconvenience players.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Significant traps that create play hardship, cursed items, diseases, etc.. which were more common in early games of Wizardry, Might and Magic, etc... are no longer common in many modern games because developers realized people would simply "reload" if they ran into anything that was lasting.

I mean, lets be honest here... how many people do you think are going to continue playing if for instance a trap has some disease, curse, etc... which creates hardship for the character until they find some way to deal with it? Most will simply reload and avoid it rather than carry that consequence later into the game looking for a resolution.

May be because having trap that give you a curse that damages you every 5 seconds and give you –3 to all your stats until you visit priest in nearest settlement and nothing more is not actually fun or entertaining?

Neither is enemies doing damage, we should just remove it to not inconvenience players.

No, make it interesting, like this: https://divinity.fandom.com/wiki/Tyrant's_Helm

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Significant traps that create play hardship, cursed items, diseases, etc.. which were more common in early games of Wizardry, Might and Magic, etc... are no longer common in many modern games because developers realized people would simply "reload" if they ran into anything that was lasting.

I mean, lets be honest here... how many people do you think are going to continue playing if for instance a trap has some disease, curse, etc... which creates hardship for the character until they find some way to deal with it? Most will simply reload and avoid it rather than carry that consequence later into the game looking for a resolution.

May be because having trap that give you a curse that damages you every 5 seconds and give you –3 to all your stats until you visit priest in nearest settlement and nothing more is not actually fun or entertaining?

Neither is enemies doing damage, we should just remove it to not inconvenience players.

Talk about creating strawman.

[Xenich]

In this thread I've learned that pretty much everything is cheating and I'm proud to say I'm a cheater.

well, to be fair, a lot of modern games have removed a lot of risk vs reward concepts which is why I think many have become bland.

People cheat in every way these days. They look up detailed mechanics, character builds, items, etc... to see what is optimal (not simply using a basic manual, but getting post-play feed back to see how implementations actually play out... ie "What's the most powerful class? Is this skill worth it? Are sniper rifles as powerful as melee later in the game?", etc...).

Then, they save anywhere making all consequence play pointless in various surprise situations, dialogues, or long term consequences.

It used to be that you found out these things as you played and the fun was dealing with the choices you made (I struggled in Wizardry VII when it released with some build choices, but in the end I wouldn't change a thing because a lot of the fun was trying to figure out how to deal with that).

[Xenich]

Significant traps that create play hardship, cursed items, diseases, etc.. which were more common in early games of Wizardry, Might and Magic, etc... are no longer common in many modern games because developers realized people would simply "reload" if they ran into anything that was lasting.

I mean, lets be honest here... how many people do you think are going to continue playing if for instance a trap has some disease, curse, etc... which creates hardship for the character until they find some way to deal with it? Most will simply reload and avoid it rather than carry that consequence later into the game looking for a resolution.

May be because having trap that give you a curse that damages you every 5 seconds and give you –3 to all your stats until you visit priest in nearest settlement and nothing more is not actually fun or entertaining?

Welcome to game play. Risk vs reward, consequence of choice, etc... "fun" is a useless word, subjective and a pointless balancing goal.

Games are about challenge, dealing with good and bad decisions, and unknown circumstances that create obstacles. Those things affect how you build a party or character, what equipment you bring, how you approach fights, etc...

Everyone these days just builds for DPS, fast fights, being the first to the finish line and see this as a viable approach to play, but this isn't a strategy, rather a result of poor development that does not implement proper risk vs reward, choice and consequence.

Maybe having a skill, character, etc... who specializes in traps was more important than that focus on all DPS? Maybe having a utility class who could cure a disease, remove a curse, etc... was a good choice rather than a full party of berserkers?

People don't game these days, they want to be entertained and this has turned games into boring repetitious no thought key spamming design.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Significant traps that create play hardship, cursed items, diseases, etc.. which were more common in early games of Wizardry, Might and Magic, etc... are no longer common in many modern games because developers realized people would simply "reload" if they ran into anything that was lasting.

I mean, lets be honest here... how many people do you think are going to continue playing if for instance a trap has some disease, curse, etc... which creates hardship for the character until they find some way to deal with it? Most will simply reload and avoid it rather than carry that consequence later into the game looking for a resolution.

May be because having trap that give you a curse that damages you every 5 seconds and give you –3 to all your stats until you visit priest in nearest settlement and nothing more is not actually fun or entertaining?

Welcome to game play. Risk vs reward, consequence of choice, etc... "fun" is a useless word, subjective and a pointless balancing goal.

Games are about challenge, dealing with good and bad decisions, and unknown circumstances that create obstacles. Those things affect how you build a party or character, what equipment you bring, how you approach fights, etc...

Everyone these days just builds for DPS, fast fights, being the first to the finish line and see this as a viable approach to play, but this isn't a strategy, rather a result of poor development that does not implement proper risk vs reward, choice and consequence.

Maybe having a skill, character, etc... who specializes in traps was more important than that focus on all DPS? Maybe having a utility class who could cure a disease, remove a curse, etc... was a good choice rather than a full party of berserkers?

People don't game these days, they want to be entertained and this has turned games into boring repetitious no thought key spamming design.

If "risk vs reward, consequence of choice, etc." mean stupid debuf that do nothing more than makes you backtrack, your understanding of "risk vs reward, consequence of choice, etc." quite primitive.
Good job ignoring this argument:

No, make it interesting, like this: https://divinity.fandom.com/wiki/Tyrant's_Helm