Savescumming, respeccing, and cheating in RPGs

[Nooneatall]

Lol people still falling for the troll

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Lol people still falling for the troll

I think this time Rusty and Acrux are serious.

[rusty_shackleford]

"You take your hobby serious?! Wow, I can't even…"

Tourists.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

"You take your hobby serious?! Wow, I can't even…"

Tourists.

No, you don't take your hobby serious, you load your game when you lose fight and die.

[rusty_shackleford]

"You take your hobby serious?! Wow, I can't even…"

Tourists.

No, you don't take your hobby serious, you load your game when you lose fight and die.

You guys still aren't getting it.

I will ask again:
What happens when you die in Dark Souls?

[Faceless_Sentinel]

"You take your hobby serious?! Wow, I can't even…"

Tourists.

No, you don't take your hobby serious, you load your game when you lose fight and die.

You guys still aren't getting it.

I will ask again:
What happens when you die in Dark Souls?

This is only in dark souls, what about other games? Deus Ex(old and new one), Skyrim, Half Life 2, most jrpgs.

[maidenhaver]

I rage quit.

[rusty_shackleford]

No, you don't take your hobby serious, you load your game when you lose fight and die.

You guys still aren't getting it.

I will ask again:
What happens when you die in Dark Souls?

This is only in dark souls, what about other games?

It's not about losing or difficulty. It's about attempting to maintain one continuous thread of actions.

[Xenich]

Real Americans don't Reload!

[Faceless_Sentinel]

You guys still aren't getting it.

I will ask again:
What happens when you die in Dark Souls?

This is only in dark souls, what about other games?

It's not about losing or difficulty. It's about attempting to maintain one continuous thread of actions.

Than you have to start new game every time you die or even delete a game, otherwise you do not maintain one continuous thread of actions, it is the same as save scumming,

[rusty_shackleford]

This is only in dark souls, what about other games?

It's not about losing or difficulty. It's about attempting to maintain one continuous thread of actions.

Than you have to start new game every time you die or even delete a game, otherwise you do not maintain one continuous thread of actions, it is the same as save scumming,

No, that thread has been severed, it has reached its end. You go backwards to the last place the thread can continue from.

[Element]

Another reason why I dislike it is because there is now a game mechanic that is strictly superior to many others, which calls putting time into their proper implementation into question. What is the point of a skill that lets me spot bear traps and caltrops? I can save, take the damage, reload, walk around the trap, save, repeat. What is the point in a skill that makes me aware of enemy presence? Save, run around, aggro everyone, die, then immediately roll back the game state without any punishment, but with all the knowledge of what awaits you. Things like debilitating status effects ( a la lost limbs in F&H ) simply would not work in a game that lets you savescum. Ambushes become entirely irrelevant, and so on. So plenty of aspects of the gameplay that can be used to build tension, challenge the player's faculties and otherwise enrich the experience are simply sheared off with the savescum feature. You can play the 'bUt HoW dOeS tHaT cOnCeRn YoU?' card, but since there's only the one version of the game that's being shipped, either the game designers make the game with that feature in mind, or they don't. And if they have a quicksave at their disposal, their approach to designing the game will be different, which does impact me.

Lots of games experimented with saving in the early 00s. Operation Flashpoint and Black Hawk Down iirc both had one auto-save halfway through the level, and then 3-4 quicksaves available to you to use as you saw fit. Prince of Persia on the PS2 was a series that hinged on the uniqueness of this feature, with a limited in-game resource allowing you to rewind time and try again if you messed up. Des and DS had a rolling save with the strict bonfire system for restarts when you died ( + the loss of souls ), and this was offset with your inventory remaining unchanged after death, so you could still yolo towards good items if you didn't mind the restart.

There are ways to make interesting save mechanics that are lenient, but which avoid the brute forcing of F5. Big studios have lots of game designers. Designing interesting mechanics is part of their job.

[Nooneatall]

Lol people still falling for the troll

I think this time Rusty and Acrux are serious.

Well they are pretty gay. I stand by if breaking the rules of the game or modifying it makes it more fun I'm going to do it and I don't care what other think about it. It's the same reason I'm removing gay **** from ck3. You could very easily make the case I'm making the game easier by getting more heirs. I don't give a ****

[Xenich]

You guys still aren't getting it.

I will ask again:
What happens when you die in Dark Souls?

This is only in dark souls, what about other games?

It's not about losing or difficulty. It's about attempting to maintain one continuous thread of actions.

I know, you discussed that, I even agreed in those situations, but also there are problems with various save systems that do not always fit well.

Games should be developed with the intent and focus as you describe, agreed... they should not chase after markets who cheat themselves out of various concepts of play... but... neither should they waste time trying to prevent it to any serious means.

I think I mentioned it before... but Underail didn't have a map system.. they added it later, which completely screwed up that sense of play (ie having to remember locations, chance of getting lost, etc...).

When I complained about this once, people said "well, just don't hit that button", which I didn't like, too tempting in play, but... if it were a setting at the start "turn off map" for the game that could not be turned back on, it would be fine for me personally (going out and looking up a cheat is far more effort and easy to avoid).

Same with the save system. Design the game like you said, put an option in the start of a new game that can't be changed.

Past that, why care?

[rusty_shackleford]

I think I mentioned it before... but Underail didn't have a map system.. they added it later, which completely screwed up that sense of play (ie having to remember locations, chance of getting lost, etc...).

When I complained about this once, people said "well, just don't hit that button", which I didn't like, too tempting in play, but... if it were a setting at the start "turn off map" for the game that could not be turned back on, it would be fine for me personally (going out and looking up a cheat is far more effort and easy to avoid).

Same with the save system. Design the game like you said, put an option in the start of a new game that can't be changed.

Past that, why care?

Because underrail 2 will be designed around you using that map.

[Xenich]

Lol people still falling for the troll

I think this time Rusty and Acrux are serious.

Well they are pretty gay. I stand by if breaking the rules of the game or modifying it makes it more fun I'm going to do it and I don't care what other think about it. It's the same reason I'm removing gay **** from ck3. You could very easily make the case I'm making the game easier by getting more heirs. I don't give a ****

See, you are playing CK3 wrong then. Didn't you say you found out one of your progeny became gay?

Don't cheat the game man... bad form...

Be better!

[Faceless_Sentinel]

It's not about losing or difficulty. It's about attempting to maintain one continuous thread of actions.

Than you have to start new game every time you die or even delete a game, otherwise you do not maintain one continuous thread of actions, it is the same as save scumming,

No, that thread has been severed, it has reached its end. You go backwards to the last place the thread can continue from.

Pussy pity cheater! Real gamers start a new thread, or accept that they are lose this one and do not lose in another one!

[Nooneatall]

I think this time Rusty and Acrux are serious.

Well they are pretty gay. I stand by if breaking the rules of the game or modifying it makes it more fun I'm going to do it and I don't care what other think about it. It's the same reason I'm removing gay **** from ck3. You could very easily make the case I'm making the game easier by getting more heirs. I don't give a ****

See, you are playing CK3 wrong then. Didn't you say you found out one of your progeny became gay?

Don't cheat the game man... bad form...

Be better!

That's true, the game designers did want my progeny to be gay and there's several events that enforce that. I guess I should give up this mod and just let everyone be gay, bi, and asexual.
You know, even worse, if I couldn't mod the game and then I save scummed when my heir turned gay.

[Xenich]

I think I mentioned it before... but Underail didn't have a map system.. they added it later, which completely screwed up that sense of play (ie having to remember locations, chance of getting lost, etc...).

When I complained about this once, people said "well, just don't hit that button", which I didn't like, too tempting in play, but... if it were a setting at the start "turn off map" for the game that could not be turned back on, it would be fine for me personally (going out and looking up a cheat is far more effort and easy to avoid).

Same with the save system. Design the game like you said, put an option in the start of a new game that can't be changed.

Past that, why care?

Because underrail 2 will be designed around you using that map.

If so, I agree. Like I said, but that is Styg being a ******* ****** designing the game around the map rather than it just being a "cheat" added for the ******* (oh here is a map, game isn't designed around it).

My position on the saves is the same. Don't design around it, just have it. I would say, hell... don't even do that... just offer a console command which requires a line option to unlock and a command to turn it on.

Then, it isn't even a known element for most players, but if those have issues with it, they can look up the console command and turn it on.

Game is designed with original intent and those who wish to bypass it have to take extra effort to.

Problem solved.

If a developer decides to go out of his way to attend to those types... well... you can't fix ******** and the game is likely ******** anyway.

[Xenich]

Well they are pretty gay. I stand by if breaking the rules of the game or modifying it makes it more fun I'm going to do it and I don't care what other think about it. It's the same reason I'm removing gay **** from ck3. You could very easily make the case I'm making the game easier by getting more heirs. I don't give a ****

See, you are playing CK3 wrong then. Didn't you say you found out one of your progeny became gay?

Don't cheat the game man... bad form...

Be better!

That's true, the game designers did want my progeny to be gay and there's several events that enforce that. I guess I should give up this mod and just let everyone be gay, bi, and asexual.
You know, even worse, if I couldn't mod the game and then I save scummed when my heir turned gay.

Hmm... ok.. not sure on the games features... but do this...

Set an arranged marriage, impregnate the wife yourself, send the heir off to some conflict you know he will die in. Problem solved. Line continues, bad seed removed.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

@rusty_shackleford give examples of the games, which were designed around save scumming.

[rusty_shackleford]

@rusty_shackleford give examples of the games, which were designed around save scumming.

Most modern RPGs no longer have traps because people just savescummed them, it became an obsolete mechanic.
Same with cursed items, unidentified items, etc.,

[Faceless_Sentinel]

@rusty_shackleford give examples of the games, which were designed around save scumming.

Most modern RPGs no longer have traps because people just savescummed them, it became an obsolete mechanic.
Same with cursed items, unidentified items, etc.,

Name games, Rusty. I haven't played a single rpg that didn't have traps.

Thanks God we got rid of unidentified items both in TTRPG and CRPG, this was waste of time.

[rusty_shackleford]

@rusty_shackleford give examples of the games, which were designed around save scumming.

Most modern RPGs no longer have traps because people just savescummed them, it became an obsolete mechanic.
Same with cursed items, unidentified items, etc.,

Name games, Rusty. I haven't played a single rpg that didn't have traps.

I'm struggling to think of an RPG I last played that actually had traps. I guess Wasteland 3, but it's just on containers.

[Nooneatall]

See, you are playing CK3 wrong then. Didn't you say you found out one of your progeny became gay?

Don't cheat the game man... bad form...

Be better!

That's true, the game designers did want my progeny to be gay and there's several events that enforce that. I guess I should give up this mod and just let everyone be gay, bi, and asexual.
You know, even worse, if I couldn't mod the game and then I save scummed when my heir turned gay.

Hmm... ok.. not sure on the games features... but do this...

Set an arranged marriage, impregnate the wife yourself, send the heir off to some conflict you know he will die in. Problem solved. Line continues, bad seed removed.

Essentially, this game is quite easy in a lot of ways so every time there is an update or DLC the devs try to make it harder. When it first came out I reinvigorated the roman empire and I don't remember there being this much gay stuff. If you've played their other games they do the same thing, the base version is easy and there are not many features and then they keep adding stuff (for better or worse).
There's a ton of different things you can do if your son is gay. For instance, one thing you might do is to murder your gay child. But obviously if you aren't playing a high intrigue character that's going to be very difficult and you will get found out. One other thing you'd do is force the gay son to join a holy order or become a priest. The devs are so smart and really want to balance the game so they added a BS mechanic to counteract you from doing stuff like that and you are pretty much forced to play with the gay son. If it was just a symbol that showed he was gay you might be able to ignore it, but there are events where characters do gay stuff and other weird stuff.

[Xenich]

@rusty_shackleford give examples of the games, which were designed around save scumming.

Most modern RPGs no longer have traps because people just savescummed them, it became an obsolete mechanic.
Same with cursed items, unidentified items, etc.,

Name games, Rusty. I haven't played a single rpg that didn't have traps.

Most are hinderances, after thought designs though, nothing serious. Clever traps that carry diseases or items with curses, etc... are not very common anymore due to that problem.

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Most modern RPGs no longer have traps because people just savescummed them, it became an obsolete mechanic.
Same with cursed items, unidentified items, etc.,

Name games, Rusty. I haven't played a single rpg that didn't have traps.

I'm struggling to think of an RPG I last played that actually had traps. I guess Wasteland 3, but it's just on containers.

You don't naming games, Rusty, you loosing argument. At least name this rpgs that you played.

[Xenich]

That's true, the game designers did want my progeny to be gay and there's several events that enforce that. I guess I should give up this mod and just let everyone be gay, bi, and asexual.
You know, even worse, if I couldn't mod the game and then I save scummed when my heir turned gay.

Hmm... ok.. not sure on the games features... but do this...

Set an arranged marriage, impregnate the wife yourself, send the heir off to some conflict you know he will die in. Problem solved. Line continues, bad seed removed.

Essentially, this game is quite easy in a lot of ways so every time there is an update or DLC the devs try to make it harder. When it first came out I reinvigorated the roman empire and I don't remember there being this much gay stuff. If you've played their other games they do the same thing, the base version is easy and there are not many features and then they keep adding stuff (for better or worse).
There's a ton of different things you can do if your son is gay. For instance, one thing you might do is to murder your gay child. But obviously if you aren't playing a high intrigue character that's going to be very difficult and you will get found out. One other thing you'd do is force the gay son to join a holy order or become a priest. The devs are so smart and really want to balance the game so they added a BS mechanic to counteract you from doing stuff like that and you are pretty much forced to play with the gay son. If it was just a symbol that showed he was gay you might be able to ignore it, but there are events where characters do gay stuff and other weird stuff.

Does the game progress if you are found out or does it just basically cause you to lose? If it allows for an alternate progression from that, might be cool, though the game suspiciously sounds like it is a propaganda jerkoff release to "educate" people on the evils of being a bigot , basically DLC Veilguard style.

[rusty_shackleford]

Name games, Rusty. I haven't played a single rpg that didn't have traps.

I'm struggling to think of an RPG I last played that actually had traps. I guess Wasteland 3, but it's just on containers.

You don't naming games, Rusty, you loosing argument. At least name this rpgs that you played.

You're asking me to prove a negative.

[Nooneatall]

Hmm... ok.. not sure on the games features... but do this...

Set an arranged marriage, impregnate the wife yourself, send the heir off to some conflict you know he will die in. Problem solved. Line continues, bad seed removed.

Essentially, this game is quite easy in a lot of ways so every time there is an update or DLC the devs try to make it harder. When it first came out I reinvigorated the roman empire and I don't remember there being this much gay stuff. If you've played their other games they do the same thing, the base version is easy and there are not many features and then they keep adding stuff (for better or worse).
There's a ton of different things you can do if your son is gay. For instance, one thing you might do is to murder your gay child. But obviously if you aren't playing a high intrigue character that's going to be very difficult and you will get found out. One other thing you'd do is force the gay son to join a holy order or become a priest. The devs are so smart and really want to balance the game so they added a BS mechanic to counteract you from doing stuff like that and you are pretty much forced to play with the gay son. If it was just a symbol that showed he was gay you might be able to ignore it, but there are events where characters do gay stuff and other weird stuff.

Does the game progress if you are found out or does it just basically cause you to lose? If it allows for an alternate progression from that, might be cool, though the game suspiciously sounds like it is a propaganda jerkoff release to "educate" people on the evils of being a bigot , basically DLC Veilguard style.

The only lose condition is if you die without an heir, so having a son who isn't gay and is having a lot of sex is ideal. You absolutely can keep playing the game if you are found out for murdering your son you just get several bad modifiers. As I said, the original modifiers of the game weren't that bad they just kept adding more, they added something called legitimacy that always seems to take a hit during stuff like this.
I would just argue that having a gay son shouldn't be in the game at all but these Europeans kept jerking off to Yuri(which one is the gay guy one? I should ask Vergil) porn and watching GOT so everything is about incest and gay sex.