D&D Edition Wars

[J1M]

3e refers to the player as "she" so it was broken from the start

True, actually this kind of resurrected an old random thought I had:
What do yall think about female heroes in fantasy? Not the she-hulk/"really a dude" type, but decently and above written/portrayed ones? Do you think a female wizard or fighter are acceptable? Can they be successful protagonists/participants in a campaign/story/game/you get it/etc.? Ofc going under assumption that none of the "modern audiences" and/or feminist writing is present. I'm not particularly well acquainted with pieces of media like that (I got the impression it's very common in anime, almost to the point of some 90% of the cast being female, but that's not necessarily what I'm talking about), most of the games that come to my mind are either more recent additions that don't qualify, games with chargen when the character is (let's be honest) a dude in writing regardless, and maybe something like old old Tomb Raider which I'm not so sure qualifies (although feel free to correct me).

I've not made up my mind on the topic yet, since I feel like I don't have enough examples. Going off some modern writing the answer is sure simple, but we all know it and it's a boring topic about a fleeting thing that will surely pass given time (smh passing something something...). Anyhow, I dunno what do I think about it in normal media with good writing since I barely seen any, so yall pitch in.

If it is a fantasy setting and there is a justification for heroic feats, such as the heroes having "unusually strong spirits" or "draconic ancestry", I'm fine with it. The same way I'm fine with Rogue being stronger than Cyclops in X-Men.

If we are pretending the heroes are just ordinary people, then reality has a lot to say about what makes sense and what doesn't.

[Tangerine]

3e refers to the player as "she" so it was broken from the start

True, actually this kind of resurrected an old random thought I had:
What do yall think about female heroes in fantasy? Not the she-hulk/"really a dude" type, but decently and above written/portrayed ones? Do you think a female wizard or fighter are acceptable?

Assuming humans, female fighters are never acceptable. Magic plays by different rules so female wizards are tentatively ok.

[Acrux]

An alluring sorceress is fine. I can be okay with a sneaky lady thief or archer sometimes.

[WaterMage]

About female fighters, it depends. In a medieval feudal historical society, it makes zero sense. In a mythical version of Amazon, where they have some bizarre mutation or blessing, it could work.

[Cipher]

An alluring sorceress is fine. I can be okay with a sneaky lady thief or archer sometimes.

Assuming a mundane, low magic medieval setting, sorceress or thief is fine. Archer requires a lot of upper body strength. I know its a common "female" weapon because it lets female warriors "kill enemies softly" from afar instead of brutally engaging in melee but female archers would be extremely weak because their bows would have to be low poundage.

Without an in-narrative justification, women are just not meant for combat, period. Sure, magic changes things, "ki powers" and anime martial arts change things, superhero powers change things. That's why a thief, not a 'rogue', would make sense. A sneaky character with a knack for detecting traps, using her feminine wiles to get her way makes sense. Not a "damage dealer" with light armor, like what WotC did to the class.

[Cipher]

3e refers to the player as "she" so it was broken from the start

True, actually this kind of resurrected an old random thought I had:
What do yall think about female heroes in fantasy? Not the she-hulk/"really a dude" type, but decently and above written/portrayed ones? Do you think a female wizard or fighter are acceptable? Can they be successful protagonists/participants in a campaign/story/game/you get it/etc.? Ofc going under assumption that none of the "modern audiences" and/or feminist writing is present. I'm not particularly well acquainted with pieces of media like that (I got the impression it's very common in anime, almost to the point of some 90% of the cast being female, but that's not necessarily what I'm talking about), most of the games that come to my mind are either more recent additions that don't qualify, games with chargen when the character is (let's be honest) a dude in writing regardless, and maybe something like old old Tomb Raider which I'm not so sure qualifies (although feel free to correct me).

I've not made up my mind on the topic yet, since I feel like I don't have enough examples. Going off some modern writing the answer is sure simple, but we all know it and it's a boring topic about a fleeting thing that will surely pass given time (smh passing something something...). Anyhow, I dunno what do I think about it in normal media with good writing since I barely seen any, so yall pitch in.

Gooner bait not withstanding, the reason anime gets away with female warriors is because they are almost always still very feminine and behave like women. Like @J1M said, Rogue from X-Men is really strong but because she has the southern belle personality and specially the drawback of her actual powers, it doesn't bother me as it fits with the narrative of the story.

[Acrux]

Archer requires a lot of upper body strength.

Everyone knows that skill with bows requires DEX, which every good female should have.

[UltraFan123]

I would replace the bow with a light crossbow for the female thief archetype, since you can have a negative Strength score and still use the crossbow effectively.

I suppose a female bard who avoids combat and only does support stuff would also make sense. And outside of combat she would sing in the towns and cities the party travels to in order to make extra money, for example.

[rusty_shackleford]

Slings are weapons mastered by children, no reason foids can't use one

[Tangerine]

Slings are weapons mastered by children, no reason foids can't use one

I don't want them to. That's reason enough.

[J1M]

Slings are weapons mastered by children, no reason foids can't use one

Slings are cool, but stereotypically women aren't known for being great at throwing things...

[rusty_shackleford]

Slings remain the most underappreciated weapon in RPGs imo
viewtopic.php?t=2463-sling-most-underre ... on-in-rpgs

Weird how they've almost fallen out of cultural memory despite seeing use up until only a few centuries ago

[WaterMage]

Hot take. One weapon that I want to see in RPGs is the slingstaff, mainly if the game has bombs/vials.

[Tangerine]

Hot take. One weapon that I want to see in RPGs is the slingstaff, mainly if the game has bombs/vials.

Lacrosse is still for **** even if you add explosives.

[J1M]

Hot take. One weapon that I want to see in RPGs is the slingstaff, mainly if the game has bombs/vials.

So throwing with extra steps?

[WaterMage]

So throwing with extra steps?

And much bigger range, energy and impact. BTW, about Slings, as much as I like AD&D, the fact that mages can use slings, a very hard to use weapon but can't use crossbows is silly imo.

[J1M]

So throwing with extra steps?

And much bigger range, energy and impact. BTW, about Slings, as much as I like AD&D, the fact that mages can use slings, a very hard to use weapon but can't use crossbows is silly imo.

Can you share any videos of this weapon being used properly? It sounds cool, but I don't think I have seen anyone using one.

[mercerxiv]

3e refers to the player as "she" so it was broken from the start

True, actually this kind of resurrected an old random thought I had:
What do yall think about female heroes in fantasy? Not the she-hulk/"really a dude" type, but decently and above written/portrayed ones? Do you think a female wizard or fighter are acceptable? Can they be successful protagonists/participants in a campaign/story/game/you get it/etc.? Ofc going under assumption that none of the "modern audiences" and/or feminist writing is present. I'm not particularly well acquainted with pieces of media like that (I got the impression it's very common in anime, almost to the point of some 90% of the cast being female, but that's not necessarily what I'm talking about), most of the games that come to my mind are either more recent additions that don't qualify, games with chargen when the character is (let's be honest) a dude in writing regardless, and maybe something like old old Tomb Raider which I'm not so sure qualifies (although feel free to correct me).

I've not made up my mind on the topic yet, since I feel like I don't have enough examples. Going off some modern writing the answer is sure simple, but we all know it and it's a boring topic about a fleeting thing that will surely pass given time (smh passing something something...). Anyhow, I dunno what do I think about it in normal media with good writing since I barely seen any, so yall pitch in.

If it is a fantasy setting and there is a justification for heroic feats, such as the heroes having "unusually strong spirits" or "draconic ancestry", I'm fine with it. The same way I'm fine with Rogue being stronger than Cyclops in X-Men.

If we are pretending the heroes are just ordinary people, then reality has a lot to say about what makes sense and what doesn't.

Ok, I think I'm most inclined to agree with this take - if there's some magical in nature explanation (or sci-fi explanation I guess?). That said I'm still sceptical of portrayals as great military leaders/other positions that don't fit well with their psychology and psychological proclivities. For example it would take considerable amount of suspension of disbelief to buy that a government (or any similar structure) that is run by mainly women would be better than one ran by men and wouldn't have the typical homemarks of feminine behaviors and proclivities.

You can magic away the power differential, but you gonna have to work a lot harder to get rid of typical behaviors.

[Cipher]

So throwing with extra steps?

And much bigger range, energy and impact. BTW, about Slings, as much as I like AD&D, the fact that mages can use slings, a very hard to use weapon but can't use crossbows is silly imo.

Can you share any videos of this weapon being used properly? It sounds cool, but I don't think I have seen anyone using one.

From what little I know about it, it allows the wielder to lob bigger objects, since you can use 2 hands. However, the range is not necessarily better than a regular sling, assuming similar skill levels. It is also considerably slower and less mobile.

And, bigger is not always better. A skilled slinger with a sling and some proper muscle can sling pebbles in a straight trajectory that can wreak an opponent with a headshot. And if proficient enough they would be accurate to the point of making those shots. From what I can gather sling sticks weren't necessarily better, but more of a "bow vs crossbow" situation. Easier to use but more expensive and not necessarily better at a high skill ceiling. A side grade, if you will.

[J1M]

And much bigger range, energy and impact. BTW, about Slings, as much as I like AD&D, the fact that mages can use slings, a very hard to use weapon but can't use crossbows is silly imo.

Can you share any videos of this weapon being used properly? It sounds cool, but I don't think I have seen anyone using one.

From what little I know about it, it allows the wielder to lob bigger objects, since you can use 2 hands. However, the range is not necessarily better than a regular sling, assuming similar skill levels. It is also considerably slower and less mobile.

And, bigger is not always better. A skilled slinger with a sling and some proper muscle can sling pebbles in a straight trajectory that can wreak an opponent with a headshot. And if proficient enough they would be accurate to the point of making those shots. From what I can gather sling sticks weren't necessarily better, but more of a "bow vs crossbow" situation. Easier to use but more expensive and not necessarily better at a high skill ceiling. A side grade, if you will.

Sounds like a catapult for poor people.

[DemoGraph]

Do you think a female wizard or fighter are acceptable? Can they be successful protagonists/participants in a campaign/story/game/you get it/etc.?

Yes, no (caveat), yes.
Caveat - there may be rare women that happen to be on the edge of normal distribution of physical fitness. Those may do as fighter special cases.

I'm ok with them as snipers, some pilots, anti-air operators, drone operators, managers, etc. Women are on average better then men on tracking several objects and some other spatial tasks.

[rusty_shackleford]

Women do abysmal at spatial tasks, it's one of their worst areas.

[Demonic Fate]

An alluring sorceress is fine. I can be okay with a sneaky lady thief or archer sometimes.

Assuming a mundane, low magic medieval setting, sorceress or thief is fine. Archer requires a lot of upper body strength. I know its a common "female" weapon because it lets female warriors "kill enemies softly" from afar instead of brutally engaging in melee but female archers would be extremely weak because their bows would have to be low poundage.

High poundage bows were important in history because they needed to pierce infantry or horse armour* after flying across a whole-*** battlefield.

In the typical medieval pastiche with a band of adventures facing off against some monsters at ten paces at best, a much lighter bow will still ruin your day. Plus the archetypical fantasy archer is an unusually skilled sniper who can nail you through the eyeball.



* Good plate armour didn't usually get pierced even by longbow, contrary to myth, but there were plenty of easier targets in the army.

[Cipher]

An alluring sorceress is fine. I can be okay with a sneaky lady thief or archer sometimes.

Assuming a mundane, low magic medieval setting, sorceress or thief is fine. Archer requires a lot of upper body strength. I know its a common "female" weapon because it lets female warriors "kill enemies softly" from afar instead of brutally engaging in melee but female archers would be extremely weak because their bows would have to be low poundage.

High poundage bows were important in history because they needed to pierce infantry or horse armour* after flying across a whole-*** battlefield.

In the typical medieval pastiche with a band of adventures facing off against some monsters at ten paces at best, a much lighter bow will still ruin your day. Plus the archetypical fantasy archer is an unusually skilled sniper who can nail you through the eyeball.



* Good plate armour didn't usually get pierced even by longbow, contrary to myth, but there were plenty of easier targets in the army.

Sure, because enemies never wear armor. And monsters don't have natural armor like tough scales, hard shells and thick pelts.

"Nailing you through the eyeball" at level 20 or equivalent, maybe... or on a critical hit. But the idea that every adventurer that uses a bow is movie Legolas is just wrong. Women archers are just inferior, considerably inferior than a female warrior using a spear. Spears don't really require much force to be effect and have reach to give the spearwielder an advantage but even then, still less reach than a man would have, less lung capacity and all the rest of disadvantages.

Women just shouldn't be fighters, period. Unless they have some sort of mutant power, psionics or any other sort of superpower then maybe, sure. Bard/Dancer, sorceress or thief are roles appropriate for a woman. A magical healer, like a druid or a priestess are also good options for a female adventurer. Contrary to popular videogame logic, archery is for strong and keen eyed men.

[Demonic Fate]

Assuming a mundane, low magic medieval setting, sorceress or thief is fine. Archer requires a lot of upper body strength. I know its a common "female" weapon because it lets female warriors "kill enemies softly" from afar instead of brutally engaging in melee but female archers would be extremely weak because their bows would have to be low poundage.

High poundage bows were important in history because they needed to pierce infantry or horse armour* after flying across a whole-*** battlefield.

In the typical medieval pastiche with a band of adventures facing off against some monsters at ten paces at best, a much lighter bow will still ruin your day. Plus the archetypical fantasy archer is an unusually skilled sniper who can nail you through the eyeball.



* Good plate armour didn't usually get pierced even by longbow, contrary to myth, but there were plenty of easier targets in the army.

Sure, because enemies never wear armor. And monsters don't have natural armor like tough scales, hard shells and thick pelts.

"Nailing you through the eyeball" at level 20 or equivalent, maybe... or on a critical hit. But the idea that every adventurer that uses a bow is movie Legolas is just wrong. Women archers are just inferior, considerably inferior than a female warrior using a spear. Spears don't really require much force to be effect and have reach to give the spearwielder an advantage but even then, still less reach than a man would have, less lung capacity and all the rest of disadvantages.

Women just shouldn't be fighters, period. Unless they have some sort of mutant power, psionics or any other sort of superpower then maybe, sure. Bard/Dancer, sorceress or thief are roles appropriate for a woman. A magical healer, like a druid or a priestess are also good options for a female adventurer. Contrary to popular videogame logic, archery is for strong and keen eyed men.

I was just responding to the idea that you need a heavy as **** longbow to be useful in a fight.

All sorts of traditional fantasy weapons were subpar or niche in historical medieval/renaissance battles, doesn't mean they can't pull their weight for a fantasy adventurer fighting random bandits. Unless the game is literally medieval ARMA milsim I'm totally OK with fighters wielding historically niche weapons like flails or tridents, even some ahistorical ones like Indiana Jones whips, so an archer zipping around with a light shortbow doesn't bother me at all.

A much better and more simple reason, IMO, why female archers are a bad idea is that they still need to be able to defend themselves with melee weapons if the enemy closes. It's not like they can turn invisible and gtfo like a sorceress.

[WaterMage]

Can you share any videos of this weapon being used properly? It sounds cool, but I don't think I have seen anyone using one.

I didn't found interesting videos about it. Testing it on armor and discussing it as an hunting weapon.

Women just shouldn't be fighters, period. Unless they have some sort of mutant power, psionics or any other sort of superpower then maybe, sure. Bard/Dancer, sorceress or thief are roles appropriate for a woman. A magical healer, like a druid or a priestess are also good options for a female adventurer. Contrary to popular videogame logic, archery is for strong and keen eyed men.

Cleric is also fine for woman. Druid too.

In warhammer, among vampire clans, Blood Knights which are the most martial focused clans, are near all males. Meanwhile Lahmia, an clan all about social manipulation, infiltration, and etc are near all females.

[Irenaeus]

Here's the sling on a staff for what is worth:

[rusty_shackleford]

Did you guys saw that Dark Sun is probably coming back to D&D?

Not happening. It might be called Dark Sun, but it will have almost zero relation to Dark Sun because the setting itself is inherently Problematic.

Something I still have trouble accepting is how ridiculous libtards treat slavery even in fiction. Libtards have some kind of brainwash sleeper asset programming that is activated by certain words. You can completely ward libtards off by putting up signs that say "SLAVERY" or "******" like warding off a vampire with garlic.

[WaterMage]

Did you guys saw that Dark Sun is probably coming back to D&D?

Not happening. It might be called Dark Sun, but it will have almost zero relation to Dark Sun because the setting itself is inherently Problematic.

Something I still have trouble accepting is how ridiculous libtards treat slavery even in fiction. Libtards have some kind of brainwash sleeper asset programming that is activated by certain words. You can completely ward libtards off by putting up signs that say "SLAVERY" or "******" like warding off a vampire with garlic.

I already said how it would be :

SUN OF COLOR

In the deserts of Athas, ruled and ruined by fascist sorcerer kings, you must join with a diverse cast of companions and fight fascist sorcerer kings or join a democratic progressivist city-state founded by a powerful strong woman female dwarf preserver. No half-elves because "half" is a problematic word, nor Muls. Fight for affirmative action, putting quotas for half giants in psionics schools and the Veiled Alliance. Fight for equality, where those who enforce equality are more equal than everyone else, and kill Borys, the dragon, in this level 1~6 adventure.

[rusty_shackleford]

What do yall think about female heroes in fantasy?

solid 80% of tabletop products that have a character on the cover are female now, the propaganda is tiring and it all has an opposite effect on me