Don't bring a sword to a gunfight: the official thread™

[Magick]

Just get rid of "Melee builds" in any game that heavily features firearms, and have melee be in the game, but as a backup. Job done.

For magic, that's usually dealt with via cast times, low defense and limited resources.
But guns (non-muzzle loader kind), eh. Melee focus builds are pointless.

[Tangerine]

But what if I'm playing in modern day Yookay?

[Magick]

But what if I'm playing in modern day Yookay?

The melee build is the paki attacking you with his pork (HARAM!) sword.

Anyways this thread is about games. Melee builds are stupid in settings that heavily feature post-muzzle loader guns. They just shouldn't exist. Adjust the setting or just take the melee out besides it being a backup weapon.
I did miss melee in X-Com 1 (besides the MEC), but I wouldn't have used it primarily even if it was there, because shooting is superior.

[rusty_shackleford]

rule of cool

[maidenhaver]

Just get rid of "Melee builds" in any game that heavily features firearms, and have melee be in the game, but as a backup. Job done.

For magic, that's usually dealt with via cast times, low defense and limited resources.
But guns (non-muzzle loader kind), eh. Melee focus builds are pointless.

They don't need to be pointless. Good encounter and level design can save melee builds.

[Tangerine]

Anyways this thread is about games. Melee builds are stupid in settings that heavily feature post-muzzle loader guns. They just shouldn't exist. Adjust the setting or just take the melee out besides it being a backup weapon.

Are you familiar with the 21-foot rule?

[maidenhaver]

Anyways this thread is about games. Melee builds are stupid in settings that heavily feature post-muzzle loader guns. They just shouldn't exist. Adjust the setting or just take the melee out besides it being a backup weapon.

Are you familiar with the 21-foot rule?

121 Foot Rule

[Magick]

Anyways this thread is about games. Melee builds are stupid in settings that heavily feature post-muzzle loader guns. They just shouldn't exist. Adjust the setting or just take the melee out besides it being a backup weapon.

Are you familiar with the 21-foot rule?

Yes but that's just one on one lol. Usually in games and other settings, there's someone else with a gun too. You may get one person, then the other would just blast you.
Melee is a SECONDARY when firearms are involved, so a whole "build" focused around it is silly in such a setting.
Can be fun, but eh... It's correct that such builds are **** in comparison.

[J1M]

Gunkata

[WaterMage]

But guns (non-muzzle loader kind), eh. Melee focus builds are pointless.

I would say that even muzzle loaders can make melee pointless.

Nock 6 Barrel Flintlock. If when invented there was means to mass produce it, goodbye melee.
Nock 6 Barrel Flintlock

The unique RPG that I saw where you can play as a cavalry with a multibarrel carbine is Bannerlord with the old realms mod.

IRL, range is a ludicrous advantage. You can hit the enemy while they can't hit you. Even with a very slow reload time. Afghans with their Jezail had a ludicrous advantage over the typical British with the Brown bess muskets.

[Norfleet]

If I was in the worldbuilding stages of a role playing game that had plentiful guns, magic, and swordsmen then I'd begin with the assumption everyone in the world knows that. I'd assume dungeons and castles eschew long passageways for tight corridors, with many right angles.

They kinda already do that in real life. Dungeons and castles have a whole host of features designed to maximize defender advantage, like staircases which coil so that a right-handed defender can attack unimpeded while a right-handed attacker finds himself blocked by the staircase column.

I'd telepaths are highly valued.

Valued and/or hunted by death squads, most probably. Do tinfoil hats work vs. telepathy?

How mundane is the magic: can magic shields stop bullets?

Well, they do in D&D, since bullets are just normal missiles, and thus subject to protection from missiles. As far as wizards are concerned, arrows are just as if not more threatening than bullets, anyway. Either will kill you, either can be fired from range, but bullets are largely line-of-sight weapons and arrows, well, can be arched.

Are elven or dwarven deathsquads with infrared vision Judge Dredding people through walls with enchanted bullets?

Perfectly normal bullets can already do that in real life, really.

I think Arcanum mostly worked around these issues by making the two incompatible. Guns and magic don't cooperate with each other and cancel each other out by existing in proximity, with the stronger effect overcoming the weaker.

But ultimately, letting the players directly operate magic immediately sucks the magic out of this, because the technolergically indoctrinated mind cannot help but use magic as just another form of technolergy otherwise. It's no longer magic if you can use it.

[Magick]

They kinda already do that in real life. Dungeons and castles have a whole host of features designed to maximize defender advantage, like staircases which coil so that a right-handed defender can attack unimpeded while a right-handed attacker finds himself blocked by the staircase column.

This one is a myth, apparently. They often coil either way in real castles, and there's not much difference to the fighting per the direction. It can actually be harder to attack from the top of a staircase!
They'd have apparently avoided fighting on the (VERY narrow, and I can only imagine how slippery when wet) staircases wherever possible, whether defender or attacker. Defender would have to lean VERY far down, unless they had some kind of short spear, while attackers could slash at the legs or unbalance them.

I've been in many castles and the stairs are barely there, you have to REALLY watch your step, even when dry / daylight.
Defenders would be better off barricading the very TOP of a staircase, rather than attempting to fight directly on it.

I think Arcanum mostly worked around these issues by making the two incompatible. Guns and magic don't cooperate with each other and cancel each other out by existing in proximity, with the stronger effect overcoming the weaker.

I was thinking about this. I think when both are within range, guns would destroy magic users, too. Unless the magic user has some sort of shield (pre-conjured) that can stop bullets.
Otherwise, it's just like in the first gif in the OP, but imagine him doing a silly incantation and then getting blasted in the middle of it.

And I say this as a Mage player, lol.

[Norfleet]

This one is a myth, apparently. They often coil either way in real castles, and there's not much difference to the fighting per the direction. It can actually be harder to attack from the top of a staircase!

The way they coil may be dependent on the direction in which they expect to fight, and it is not necessarily bottom-up. It may be harder to attack from the top specifically because the defender expects the attacker to enter from over the walls and fight their way DOWN the tower.

I've been in many castles and the stairs are barely there, you have to REALLY watch your step, even when dry / daylight.
Defenders would be better off barricading the very TOP of a staircase, rather than attempting to fight directly on it.

Well, except the "top" may actually be the direction the attacker comes from as he comes over the walls.

I was thinking about this. I think when both are within range, guns would destroy magic users, too. Unless the magic user has some sort of shield (pre-conjured) that can stop bullets.
Otherwise, it's just like in the first gif in the OP, but imagine him doing a silly incantation and then getting blasted in the middle of it.

Or, you know, unless the wizard also has a gun. There's no reason the wizard SHOULDN'T carry a gun, unless it's Arcanum where guns and magic are physically incompatible. A firearm, after all, already uses skillsets that a wizard should have, unlike swinging an axe.

[Magick]

This one is a myth, apparently. They often coil either way in real castles, and there's not much difference to the fighting per the direction. It can actually be harder to attack from the top of a staircase!

The way they coil may be dependent on the direction in which they expect to fight, and it is not necessarily bottom-up. It may be harder to attack from the top specifically because the defender expects the attacker to enter from over the walls and fight their way DOWN the tower.

I've been in many castles and the stairs are barely there, you have to REALLY watch your step, even when dry / daylight.
Defenders would be better off barricading the very TOP of a staircase, rather than attempting to fight directly on it.

Well, except the "top" may actually be the direction the attacker comes from as he comes over the walls.

I was thinking about this. I think when both are within range, guns would destroy magic users, too. Unless the magic user has some sort of shield (pre-conjured) that can stop bullets.
Otherwise, it's just like in the first gif in the OP, but imagine him doing a silly incantation and then getting blasted in the middle of it.

Or, you know, unless the wizard also has a gun. There's no reason the wizard SHOULDN'T carry a gun, unless it's Arcanum where guns and magic are physically incompatible. A firearm, after all, already uses skillsets that a wizard should have, unlike swinging an axe.

Agreed about the guns & wizards. They're small enough (like knives) that there's no reason not to have one, (unless arbitrarily prohibited).

The castle thing is 100% a myth, though. About 30% of staircases spiral the other way. They're REALLY, REALLY narrow and you absolutely wouldn't want to do any fighting on them. You'd just barricade the exit and poke people with spears. They're not only narrow but the steps are often absolutely tiny, too (especially on the "inner" part, next to the spiral). The outer walls were the main defence, and if that failed then they'd retreat to the main keep / bailey. The stair fighting thing is unfortunately a myth made up by tour guides.

[Killagain665]

This one is a myth, apparently. They often coil either way in real castles, and there's not much difference to the fighting per the direction. It can actually be harder to attack from the top of a staircase!

The way they coil may be dependent on the direction in which they expect to fight, and it is not necessarily bottom-up. It may be harder to attack from the top specifically because the defender expects the attacker to enter from over the walls and fight their way DOWN the tower.

I've been in many castles and the stairs are barely there, you have to REALLY watch your step, even when dry / daylight.
Defenders would be better off barricading the very TOP of a staircase, rather than attempting to fight directly on it.

Well, except the "top" may actually be the direction the attacker comes from as he comes over the walls.

I was thinking about this. I think when both are within range, guns would destroy magic users, too. Unless the magic user has some sort of shield (pre-conjured) that can stop bullets.
Otherwise, it's just like in the first gif in the OP, but imagine him doing a silly incantation and then getting blasted in the middle of it.

Or, you know, unless the wizard also has a gun. There's no reason the wizard SHOULDN'T carry a gun, unless it's Arcanum where guns and magic are physically incompatible. A firearm, after all, already uses skillsets that a wizard should have, unlike swinging an axe.

Agreed about the guns & wizards. They're small enough (like knives) that there's no reason not to have one, (unless arbitrarily prohibited).

The castle thing is 100% a myth, though. About 30% of staircases spiral the other way. They're REALLY, REALLY narrow and you absolutely wouldn't want to do any fighting on them. You'd just barricade the exit and poke people with spears. They're not only narrow but the steps are often absolutely tiny, too (especially on the "inner" part, next to the spiral). The outer walls were the main defence, and if that failed then they'd retreat to the main keep / bailey. The stair fighting thing is unfortunately a myth made up by tour guides.

And don't forget about the non standard height of the tiny steps too. usually it is like 8 inches or so today. back then they may have been 13 to 18 inches where you would pull you feet up to nearly knee high to take one step.

[Eyestabber]

Thread goes largely ignored for a year, one guy necros it and all of a sudden everyone is like "well, that's something I want to give my two cents on!". Not complaining, just observing.

And melee is still unrealistic AND not cool when you have machineguns around. It looked stupid in 1996, it looks stupid in 2026.

[Norfleet]

And melee is still unrealistic AND not cool when you have machineguns around. It looked stupid in 1996, it looks stupid in 2026.

Melee isn't unrealistic and still exists, but it now forms such a small part of the toolkit that the notion of making a "melee build" instead of simply bashing an enemy with your entrenching tool is rather silly. And, of course, you see hand to hand fighting becoming more of an issue in cramped, enclosed areas like urban fighting. But again, it's never a primary option. Melee can absolutely continue to play a role as long as you don't turn it into a point of buildfaggotry. The moment it turns into buildfaggotry, you end up removing nearly all secondary options to double down on your primary attack. If I have to choose between "making my primary attack better" and "boosting a secondary and often disused option", buildspace cost always forces me to choose the former, resulting in the total loss of the latter. Now that I no longer have this ability, I'm naturally forced to always use the primary ability as an all-solving hammer. This is why buildfaggotry is bad for gameplay. Buildfaggotry sees you leaving Spacedock without a tractor beam because I was forced to choose between a tractor beam or +5% more phaser damage. Also, the photon torpedoes won't be installed either, because that would have cost me another +5% phaser damage.

[maidenhaver]

But ultimately, letting the players directly operate magic immediately sucks the magic out of this, because the technolergically indoctrinated mind cannot help but use magic as just another form of technolergy otherwise. It's no longer magic if you can use it.

I'd like to see magic as an entity that pushes back against technolergy. Arcanum was a thoughtful setting.

[Norfleet]

Arcanum was an attempt, but that just means you now have two incompatible fields of technolergy. The magic still isn't magical.

[mercerxiv]

Ok, my 2c.

First, TL;DR section would be appreciated for the topic.

Second, I think it is in line with your conclusion - challenging. One would have to rely on some sci-fi or fantasy trope to make general melee playstyle viable at all in a world with guns (note, I said general).
In some niche cases melee weapon can be utilized very well against firearms - think extreme close quarters fights (like in an elevator cabin), or environments where guns are confiscated and one has to make do with improvised weapons (like a kitchen knife, or easier concealed blade made of non-detectable material.

Beyond that we would need some trope to justify it, i.e. cybernetics that make it possible to shrug off or avoid gunfire, widespread personal shields/protection that makes guns ineffective, magic, locales that simply make firearms scarce and unviable weapon to rely on, etc.. I think Dune universe kind of does it decently well on Arrakis, but that falls into sci-fi cop outs and a rather sizable amount of conditionals baked into the setting.

[Norfleet]

Beyond that we would need some trope to justify it, i.e. cybernetics that make it possible to shrug off or avoid gunfire

Unfortunately, it's easier to avoid melee with that same technolergy than gunfire. Armor in the Middle Ages was considerably more effective against melee than armor today is against guns. Offensive power has been in the ascendancy for some time now and the problem doesn't seem to be getting better.

widespread personal shields/protection that makes guns ineffective

Ribaorld actually tried this, with shields that block ranged attacks and simultaneously prevent YOU from using ranged attacks, so that they became melee-only options. The counter was not to adopt your own melee, but simply to use more gun.

I think Dune universe kind of does it decently well on Arrakis

Dune pushes it to the level of hard counter that effectively nukes ranged attacks from the system. It also doesn't examine the consequences and counters thereof, though. For instance, what about two-stage projectiles, where the first stage flies slowly enough to penetrate the shield envelope, before releasing a killing projectile that then inflicts the damage? We're just intended to mindlessly accept the framing device, which tends to be anathema to the mind of the gamer, which is always trying to beat the system.

[WaterMage]

I think when both are within range, guns would destroy magic users, too. Unless the magic user has some sort of shield (pre-conjured) that can stop bullets.

I think that depends on the setting, how magic and guns works in the setting. For example, I played a Fantasy Wild West TT game called : Savage Worlds : Deadlands > viewtopic.php?t=4764-savage-worlds-dead ... est-thread

For my experience, against a sharps big 50 at long range, if all you have is blasting spells, you are screwed. If you have invisibility powers or similar powers to avoid being hit, you have a huge advantage.

Note that guns can be enchanted. In Warhammer Fantasy "IIn order to stand against the many encroaching foes of the Empire, the Dark Lady of Nuln, the Amethyst Wizard Elspeth von Draken, had begun working with the city-state's Imperial Gunnery School to create an "Amethyst Armoury", a stockpile of blackpowder weapons and war machines infused with the energies of Shyish(Lore of Death). This combination of science and wizardry resulted in a series of weapons and troops that even other Imperial regiments feared." https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wik ... _Armaments

[Magick]

stockpile of blackpowder weapons and war machines

lol
SPACE KING 3 - The Imaginator