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Don't bring a sword to a gunfight: the official thread™

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Don't bring a sword to a gunfight: the official thread™

Post by Eyestabber »

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Early access disclaimer: this thread is a work in progress. I will keep editing the OP to add more pictures, memes and whatnot and doing some adjustments to the text. Hopefully this early access release will feature all my thoughts on the topic. But let's be real, I'll probably edit more later anyway.

1. Introduction (feel free to skip)
► Show Spoiler
2. The object of discussion
raiders-of-the-lost-ark-indiana-jones.gif
All points I'll raise ITT refer exclusively to games that feature modern firearms and melee weapons. Don't make stupid arguments about medieval fantasy games, they are simply irrelevant to the discussion. By "modern" I'll consider the Great War (1914-1918) as my historical event of choice, as it's widely understood that during this period all great powers retired their melee armed units as they were finally perceived as completely obsolete. While firearms have been around since the late medieval era, it took them several centuries of improvements until they could finally outclass melee completely and utterly. So any setting that draws inspiration from this era onwards will be subject of our discussion.

I will also point out that this thread focuses on melee BUILDS, not the existence of melee itself. Putting a bayonet under your M16 does not a melee build make, soldiers were still selected for their ability to hit enemies with GUNS, not by how much damage they could potentially deal with a well placed stab. With all that out of the way, I'll point to the elephant in the room: in every single RPG, from Fallout to Trudograd and beyond the melee build sucked balls and was objectively inferior to its armed counterpart. Yes, there are exceptions like Underrail and Colony Ship Game, but these are extremely rare. What we normally get are poorly thought out implementations of melee just so a few autists don't throw a tantrum. I will try to analyze the issues that frequently plague melee and the solutions we've seen so far. Hopefully, by addressing most of these issues a developer can make a game where melee isn't just a way to "challenge" yourself, but rather a fun and viable alternative to guns. Let's go!

3. Closing the gap
last samurai.gif
The first and most obvious problem melee builds face is the fact that they have to get close to deal damage, while their enemies can usually attack before that happens. In game terms that means spending your precious action points on movements while the enemy can spend theirs blasting you for one or even more turns. Alpha striking* is a well known and never solved inherent issue of turn based games and as a melee character you're suddenly on the receiving end of this particular quirk. Since most RPGs will have the player outnumbered by opponents, letting them all act before you can do anything about it is usually a death sentence in games that feature any degree of difficulty. Even if you win the initiative there's now a different problem: once you move your opponent shot has less range or cover penalty.

3.1 Possible solutions: teleportation

KOTOR solves this issue by cheating it: just give guardians a force jump and problem solved. That is not an elegant solution as it simply flips the table without really solving anything. Other games like KAKT feature limited usage of teleportation, a usually acceptable middle ground. While teleporting can feel meaningful in the player's hand, it quickly devolves into unfair retardation when overly used by the AI (eg DA2). I consider this to be a bandaid solution at best.

3.2 Possible solutions: mobility tools

The most logical solution to the problem is providing melee builds with tools to close the gap faster, be it gear, feats, perks or whatever BUT without breaking the movement system. Ideally such power shouldn't come for free and must have an associated opportunity cost. I like the "speed" stat in certain games as they demonstrate the potential of gridless systems. Underrail's solution of separating AP and MP is also quite elegant and it's puzzling how nobody thought of something like that before. There's also "movement AP" that some neo-Fallout games like CSG use. Balancing said tools to avoid them being too oppressive or inefficient is the real challenge a developer will face. OTOH I think including melee and providing it with no gap closing tools (like Vigilantes) is a sign of amateur development or just ticking a checkbox.

3.3 Possible solutions: stealth

Whether it's Sith assassins sneaking up on you or Blood silently approaching some unfortunate soul in Jagged Alliance 2, stealth presents itself as a viable solution for closing the gap. That's rarely stealth's only application and many games feature silenced weapons doing the same thing but better. So in order for stealth to be an actual melee tool there needs to be some extra incentive to mix it with melee, otherwise a stealth sniper will simply be better. There's also the quality of life issue, as crouch walking slowly through the map tends to be very, very boring, ESPECIALLY when done in turns.

3.4 REAL sniping or melee: pick one

The overwhelming majority of RPGs feature "fake sniping", meaning they put sniper rifles in the game but their range is usually the same as ARs or maybe slightly longer. Real sniping needs a distance of 300 meters at the very least and these very long ranges are rarely featured in RPGs, while being more common in tactical games such as Jagged Alliance 3 and several JA 2 mods. Of course, having real sniping in your game brings its own issues, but for the purpose of this thread we will focus on its impact in melee. If the engagement distances in your game favor real sniping then it's obvious that melee becomes completely and utterly outclassed. On the other hand, if you provide shorter engagement distances for the sake of making melee viable then there will be no real sniping in your game. Any attempts to do both result in the worst of both worlds, making both builds only work half the time.

*the ability to critically wound or outright kill the opponent before their turn comes up

4. Spreading yourself too thin: the stat problem

Melee weapons are force multipliers while firearms are not. In gaming terms this real life observation translates into the strength stat being important for melee and a dump stat for ranged. In most RPGs combat isn't even the only thing players are doing, there's also a social stat (eg Charisma) and a skill/utility stat (intelligence). Gunslingers will usually be able to spare a few points in these non-combat stats because of their inherent advantage while melee characters will typically dump them since they need all the help that they can get. The health stat (endurance) is also a huge culprit in this equation as melee builds usually need more survivability. Defense will get its own point, but for now I'll settle with pointing out that in the majority of RPGs the stat system is designed in a way that screws melee builds.

4.1 The solution? Ditch SPECIAL and do better

Fallout and its offspring use a system that inherently fucks melee builds in the ***. There's no bandaid solution for the stat problem, it needs to be well thought out and designed from the ground up, like in Underrail. For starters I'll say the strength stat needs to do more than just increase melee damage. I remember an old tabletop system I once played having a "physique" stat that was essentially STR + END rolled into one. It makes sense to put some measure of defense on the STR stat, be it hit points, armor requirements or something else. Any implementation of mobility tools should also be reflected in the stat system, as having "1AP/one square" movement is a recipe for melee sucking. I also believe tying AP to DEX alone makes it the KING stat and ruins the system. INT providing MORE COMBAT progression? Lmao. Just lmao. No.

4.2 What not to do: Sawyerism

Pillars of Eternity (medieval game, I know, but wait, hear me out) created a "power" attribute that increases damage across the board. This could, theoretically, be applied to a game set in the modern era, but it's the worst solution possible. By tying gun damage to a stat you abolish their main distinction of not being force multipliers. You solved the melee vs gun debate by making both equally boring. Congratulations, here's your daily dose of soy and bugs, now go ride your bike while the bull satisfies your wife.

5. No dedicated defense = no dice

All combat characters need to worry about not dying, but melee builds tend to incur a higher risk of kicking the bucket. The gap widens when you realize most RPGs feature equal defensive options for both builds. Swinging a big hammer in Power Armor? Cool, but you can get the same protection while sniping. Melee characters need to have SOMETHING to protect them from all the bullets and lack of cover.

5.1 Blaster deflection
swkotor_OFfR3x7mID.png
In Star Wars Jedi defend themselves against blasters by either deflecting or reflecting the bolt with their lightsabers. The SW D20 ruleset provides rolls for these actions and is IMO a good example of a well thought out solution to the problem. In MGS Grey Fox parries your bullets with his sword. Not an RPG, but the point stands: the melee guy needs to have something in his arsenal to prevent the Indiana Jones scene from happening.

5.2 Exclusive perks

CSG and Underrail address the issue by giving melee builds access to certain feats that tend to be more effective than their ranged counterpart in terms of providing a mix of defense and offense. In RPGO (Xcom 2 mod) the Samurai can get big bonuses to evasion and mobility via certain origin feats. I think proper balance must be maintained to avoid solving the problem by just giving the melee character a much bigger stat stick. Melee should have a more efficient defense and that also relates to the previous point. It's very, VERY hard to evaluate the true value of range, but it seems obvious to me that melee options can't just copy paste the numbers of ranged options (like in Vigilantes, **** that game).

5.3 Gear requirements

I'm not a fan of STR requirements on weapons as it tends to homogenize stat distributions across the board. But armor? Hell yeah! Establishing a pattern of "more strength, better defense" is a tried and true way of providing melee characters with stronger defense compared to their ranged counterparts. Having your melee guys hoarding your best armor while gunners use what's available is a decent solution to the problem. It should be mentioned, however, that most RPGs try to "balance" light armor and heavy armor, resulting in light armor being just as good, which completely ruins the point of a stat requirement in the first place.

6. Many foes, even more issues

The player character(s) are always outnumbered in RPGs and in many cases area of effect damage tends to be the better solution for enemy mobs. And that's another area where melee struggles as they are rarely provided with AoE options, unlike say riflemen and their underbarrel grenade launchers. I don't think this issue can be solved without stepping into anime territory. Devs should instead focus on making melee characters really GOOD single target damage dealers and let other archetypes handle AoE. Adding salt to the wound, melee characters need to reposition and close another gap once they kill their designated target, while gunners can simply choose another target for shooting. Good implementation of line of sight, cover and obstacles slightly address this issue, but melee's inherent weakness in that regard can't really be fixed. OH, and having one of your guys in melee tends to make using explosives trickier.

7. (Un)focused fire

Focus fire for gunslingers is usually simple whereas melee attackers need to run up to a new target. In games where the melee hero can dispatch enemies in a single turn without any help this is not a problem, but as soon as a "boss" and his lieutenants show up the issue becomes more apparent.

8. Conclusion

Making melee a meaningful option is HARD and goes way beyond designing a few knives and calling it a day. Devs should either take these issues into consideration and come up with solutions for them OR just skip melee entirely. I hate half assed systems and I believe RPGs set in the modern era can skip melee entirely. Just like in real life.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Eyestabber wrote: June 8th, 2025, 17:12
Fallout and its offspring use a system that inherently fucks melee builds in the ***. There's no bandaid solution for the stat problem, it needs to be well thought out and designed from the ground up, like in Underrail. For starters I'll say the strength stat needs to do more than just increase melee damage. I remember an old tabletop system I once played having a "physique" stat that was essentially STR + END rolled into one.
This is common to do in sci-fi tabletop RPGs as an easy way to give an edge to melee users.


Regarding actual in-universe reasons for it to exist: Frank Herbert created shields specifically to have a reason for characters to fight using melee weapons because he thought it was more cinematic(iirc). Underrail copies this somewhat(even down to how effective it is vs things that move fast), don't know if any other notable RPGs do.
Last edited by rusty_shackleford on June 8th, 2025, 17:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by logincrash »

rusty_shackleford wrote: June 8th, 2025, 17:17
Eyestabber wrote: June 8th, 2025, 17:12
Fallout and its offspring use a system that inherently fucks melee builds in the ***. There's no bandaid solution for the stat problem, it needs to be well thought out and designed from the ground up, like in Underrail. For starters I'll say the strength stat needs to do more than just increase melee damage. I remember an old tabletop system I once played having a "physique" stat that was essentially STR + END rolled into one.
This is common to do in sci-fi tabletop RPGs as an easy way to give an edge to melee users.


Regarding actual in-universe reasons for it to exist: Frank Herbert created shields specifically to have a reason for characters to fight using melee weapons because he thought it was more cinematic(iirc). Underrail copies this somewhat(even down to how effective it is vs things that move fast), don't know if any other notable RPGs do.
Mass Effect does that with their personal kinetic shields, down to the "deflecting bullets but not knocking down chairs" explanation.
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Post by Cipher »

It can be done effectively but it really needs some groundwork. For example, the reason UC Gundam has mechs fighting with machine guns, beam rifles and beam swords/heat hawks (axes) is because the "Minovsky" particles make it so electronics can't be accurate beyond visual range. This is just a techno babble handwave to make it so we get cool within visual range fights and melee fights between big stompy robots.

But, yes. I agree. Without handwaving it away with an in lore justification, it is a terrible decision to bring a knife to a gunfight. Just like it is a terrible decision to bring a fist to a knife fight. And bring your sarcastic wit into a fist fight.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Cipher wrote: June 8th, 2025, 17:35
Without handwaving it away with an in lore justification
…And there's absolutely nothing wrong with this. Never let the science get in the way of cool swordfights.
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Post by logincrash »

Eyestabber wrote: June 8th, 2025, 17:12
In every single RPG, from Fallout to Trudograd and beyond the melee build sucked balls and was objectively inferior to its armed counterpart. Yes, there are exceptions like Underrail and Colony Ship Game, but these are extremely rare. What we normally get are poorly thought out implementations of melee just so a few autists don't throw a tantrum. I will try to analyze the issues that frequently plague melee and the solutions we've seen so far. Hopefully, by addressing most of these issues a developer can make a game where melee isn't just a way to "challenge" yourself, but rather a fun and viable alternative to guns. Let's go!
I think Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines does a good job of making both guns and melee equally viable. Aside from a couple of boss fights, you can wreck **** with your fists/claws/swords or blow people away with shotguns or rifles the entire game.
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Post by Cipher »

rusty_shackleford wrote: June 8th, 2025, 17:37
Cipher wrote: June 8th, 2025, 17:35
Without handwaving it away with an in lore justification
…And there's absolutely nothing wrong with this. Never let the science get in the way of cool swordfights.
I agree. That's the entire reason to handwave something to the audience. Letting them know you understand it doesn't make sense, but asking them to trust you that it makes for a better story and just suspend disbelief anyways.
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Post by Brother Chad »

Just use the Dune system bros.

"Errr can't use our scifi guns because scifi magic shields that only work against fast-moving projectiles or whatever."
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Post by Val the Moofia Boss »

I think the issue here is you are coming from a hyperrealist approach. For swordsmen to work you need to delve into fantasy a bit. It could be that practicing martial arts in the setting makes someone mildly superhuman, honing their Qi and allowing them to use some of it, capable of dashing into a pack of enemies, and/or sensing incoming bullets and taking evasive/defensive action, and maybe their sword swings are exaggerated and are capable of cleaving in a large radius. Etc. Energy/magic shields and/or being inside a mech that can take hits for you resolves the issue of a melee character getting hit a lot but still inexplicably standing.
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Post by logincrash »

Val the Moofia Boss wrote: June 8th, 2025, 18:50
I think the issue here is you are coming from a hyperrealist approach. For swordsmen to work you need to delve into fantasy a bit. It could be that practicing martial arts in the setting makes someone mildly superhuman, honing their Qi and allowing them to use some of it, capable of dashing into a pack of enemies, and/or sensing incoming bullets and taking evasive/defensive action, and maybe their sword swings are exaggerated and are capable of cleaving in a large radius. Etc. Energy/magic shields and/or being inside a mech that can take hits for you resolves the issue of a melee character getting hit a lot but still inexplicably standing.
This kind of ******** thinking cost the ****** their Boxer Rebellion.
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Post by WaterMage »

Everything that you wrote about swords vs guns could be said about magic vs swords.
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Post by Norfleet »

Your revolver holds 6 bullets, but your fists never run out of ammo.
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Post by KOS-MOS »

S4League nailed this pretty well. It wasn't perfect but it was, for me at least, the best game with guns and melee combat. High mobility, dodge, wall jumps and different powers and weapons abilities.

Too bad this game died after being abused by several step dads, leaving just a corpse to be raped once again by a new adoptive dad with weird kink fantasies :


Now, I guess the only private server that's not a braindead mess will get sued to death and after this game dies AGAIN, this time we'll be left with nothing but our tears

Edit: I know it's not a RPG, but I never miss an opportunity to talk about S4L.
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Post by Norfleet »

logincrash wrote: June 8th, 2025, 17:40
I think Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines does a good job of making both guns and melee equally viable. Aside from a couple of boss fights, you can wreck **** with your fists/claws/swords or blow people away with shotguns or rifles the entire game.
That isn't really true. Guns are basically totally unusable until you've put several dots into them, while melee attacks work perfectly fine without investment, you just cause somewhat less damage: your ability to control the system isn't crippled.
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Post by Tadeusz »

It may be a good ability for melee fighters to jam firearms in an area, giving them a certain chance not to fire. May be not realistic in certain settings but it may make melee a viable option without completely eliminating firearms.
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Post by J1M »

@Eyestabber where do you fall on Firaxis' XCOM melee options? I recall that they were powerful enough that I wanted to use them.
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Post by Eyestabber »

J1M wrote: June 9th, 2025, 15:55
@Eyestabber where do you fall on Firaxis' XCOM melee options? I recall that they were powerful enough that I wanted to use them.
You mean Xcom 2, right? The first one didn't have melee IIRC. Coincidentally I have recently replayed RPGO and tried the Samurai class. In vanilla your melee option is the ranger class and the templar class. Both solve the gap closing by cheating (attack after yellow move) and templars solved the defense issue by allowing movement after attacking. I think Xcom 2 comes close to solving the problem by giving melee an unreasonably large stat stick, BUT It's one of the better implemented solutions out there. They clearly thought about the issues I pointed ITT and presented solutions to them, even tho personally I dislike seeing soldiers running a ******* marathon to slash an alien while completely unopposed. Same with exalt melee forces, it looks odd and feels like cheating, but it works well from a gameplay perspective.
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Post by J1M »

Eyestabber wrote: June 10th, 2025, 00:14
J1M wrote: June 9th, 2025, 15:55
@Eyestabber where do you fall on Firaxis' XCOM melee options? I recall that they were powerful enough that I wanted to use them.
You mean Xcom 2, right? The first one didn't have melee IIRC. Coincidentally I have recently replayed RPGO and tried the Samurai class. In vanilla your melee option is the ranger class and the templar class. Both solve the gap closing by cheating (attack after yellow move) and templars solved the defense issue by allowing movement after attacking. I think Xcom 2 comes close to solving the problem by giving melee an unreasonably large stat stick, BUT It's one of the better implemented solutions out there. They clearly thought about the issues I pointed ITT and presented solutions to them, even tho personally I dislike seeing soldiers running a ******* marathon to slash an alien while completely unopposed. Same with exalt melee forces, it looks odd and feels like cheating, but it works well from a gameplay perspective.
It's been a while since I played XCOM: Enemy Unknown, but from what I recall I used the shotgun essentially as a melee weapon due to videogame logic involving shotgun accuracy.
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Post by Norfleet »

In games, melee's desirability stems purely from damage dealt, while ranged's desirability stems from its stopping power. If melee can't outdamage ranged, then what's the point, and if ranged can't stop enemies before fights turn into knife fights anyway, then what's the point? Thus, if HP / DPS < Engagement Distance / Closing Speed, ranged becomes increasingly crap. You don't tend to see ranged weapons being used much in an environment where melee outdamages ranged and all engagements inevitably become melee engagements.
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Post by Eyestabber »

Little update on the gap closing issue:

3.4 REAL sniping or melee: pick one
The overwhelming majority of RPGs feature "fake sniping", meaning they put sniper rifles in the game but their range is usually the same as ARs or maybe slightly longer. Real sniping needs a distance of 300 meters at the very least and these very long ranges are rarely featured in RPGs, while being more common in tactical games such as Jagged Alliance 3 and several JA 2 mods. Of course, having real sniping in your game brings its own issues, but for the purpose of this thread we will focus on its impact in melee. If the engagement distances in your game favor real sniping then it's obvious that melee becomes completely and utterly outclassed. On the other hand, if you provide shorter engagement distances for the sake of making melee viable then there will be no real sniping in your game. Any attempts to do both result in the worst of both worlds, making both builds only work half the time.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Eyestabber wrote: June 17th, 2025, 14:52
Little update on the gap closing issue:

3.4 REAL sniping or melee: pick one
The overwhelming majority of RPGs feature "fake sniping", meaning they put sniper rifles in the game but their range is usually the same as ARs or maybe slightly longer. Real sniping needs a distance of 300 meters at the very least and these very long ranges are rarely featured in RPGs, while being more common in tactical games such as Jagged Alliance 3 and several JA 2 mods. Of course, having real sniping in your game brings its own issues, but for the purpose of this thread we will focus on its impact in melee. If the engagement distances in your game favor real sniping then it's obvious that melee becomes completely and utterly outclassed. On the other hand, if you provide shorter engagement distances for the sake of making melee viable then there will be no real sniping in your game. Any attempts to do both result in the worst of both worlds, making both builds only work half the time.
Most RPGs don't even feature realistic range for regular rifles. Your off-the-shelf AR-15 has an effective range up to 600 yards.
A standard football field is 120 yards(soccer field is similar, for the commies), to help visualize.
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Post by Eyestabber »

rusty_shackleford wrote: June 17th, 2025, 15:27
Eyestabber wrote: June 17th, 2025, 14:52
Little update on the gap closing issue:

3.4 REAL sniping or melee: pick one
The overwhelming majority of RPGs feature "fake sniping", meaning they put sniper rifles in the game but their range is usually the same as ARs or maybe slightly longer. Real sniping needs a distance of 300 meters at the very least and these very long ranges are rarely featured in RPGs, while being more common in tactical games such as Jagged Alliance 3 and several JA 2 mods. Of course, having real sniping in your game brings its own issues, but for the purpose of this thread we will focus on its impact in melee. If the engagement distances in your game favor real sniping then it's obvious that melee becomes completely and utterly outclassed. On the other hand, if you provide shorter engagement distances for the sake of making melee viable then there will be no real sniping in your game. Any attempts to do both result in the worst of both worlds, making both builds only work half the time.
Most RPGs don't even feature realistic range for regular rifles. Your off-the-shelf AR-15 has an effective range up to 600 yards.
A standard football field is 120 yards(soccer field is similar, for the commies), to help visualize.


Or shotguns. Video games, not just RPGs, heavily nerf the real range of firearms for a variety of gameplay related reasons and that's yet another argument against melee in RPGs: it incentivizes the developer to subscribe to completely false gun myths.
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Post by Norfleet »

rusty_shackleford wrote: June 17th, 2025, 15:27
Most RPGs don't even feature realistic range for regular rifles. Your off-the-shelf AR-15 has an effective range up to 600 yards.
Sure, assuming your opponent is a brightly colored stationary target standing in the open and you're standing up to see him. Otherwise, that's just the range at which you can be killed by stray bullets. Most infantry kills take place at ranges less than a hundred meters with the bulk of kills under 50. We know this because this is what happens even in Ukraine, a place not exactly known for its dense jungles and rugged hills. So yes, if you can see it, you can shoot at it, but it's not as easy to see it as you'd think, given that there's a strong incentive on both sides to NOT BE SEEN. Combat ranges where both sides are lying prone on the ground most of the time and getting up only to make short sprints are not quite so long.
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Post by anonusername »

Eyestabber wrote: June 8th, 2025, 17:12
Image

Early access disclaimer: this thread is a work in progress. I will keep editing the OP to add more pictures, memes and whatnot and doing some adjustments to the text. Hopefully this early access release will feature all my thoughts on the topic. But let's be real, I'll probably edit more later anyway.

1. Introduction (feel free to skip)
► Show Spoiler
2. The object of discussion

Image

All points I'll raise ITT refer exclusively to games that feature modern firearms and melee weapons. Don't make stupid arguments about medieval fantasy games, they are simply irrelevant to the discussion. By "modern" I'll consider the Great War (1914-1918) as my historical event of choice, as it's widely understood that during this period all great powers retired their melee armed units as they were finally perceived as completely obsolete. While firearms have been around since the late medieval era, it took them several centuries of improvements until they could finally outclass melee completely and utterly. So any setting that draws inspiration from this era onwards will be subject of our discussion.

I will also point out that this thread focuses on melee BUILDS, not the existence of melee itself. Putting a bayonet under your M16 does not a melee build make, soldiers were still selected for their ability to hit enemies with GUNS, not by how much damage they could potentially deal with a well placed stab. With all that out of the way, I'll point to the elephant in the room: in every single RPG, from Fallout to Trudograd and beyond the melee build sucked balls and was objectively inferior to its armed counterpart. Yes, there are exceptions like Underrail and Colony Ship Game, but these are extremely rare. What we normally get are poorly thought out implementations of melee just so a few autists don't throw a tantrum. I will try to analyze the issues that frequently plague melee and the solutions we've seen so far. Hopefully, by addressing most of these issues a developer can make a game where melee isn't just a way to "challenge" yourself, but rather a fun and viable alternative to guns. Let's go!

3. Closing the gap

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The first and most obvious problem melee builds face is the fact that they have to get close to deal damage, while their enemies can usually attack before that happens. In game terms that means spending your precious action points on movements while the enemy can spend theirs blasting you for one or even more turns. Alpha striking* is a well known and never solved inherent issue of turn based games and as a melee character you're suddenly on the receiving end of this particular quirk. Since most RPGs will have the player outnumbered by opponents, letting them all act before you can do anything about it is usually a death sentence in games that feature any degree of difficulty. Even if you win the initiative there's now a different problem: once you move your opponent shot has less range or cover penalty.

3.1 Possible solutions: teleportation

KOTOR solves this issue by cheating it: just give guardians a force jump and problem solved. That is not an elegant solution as it simply flips the table without really solving anything. Other games like KAKT feature limited usage of teleportation, a usually acceptable middle ground. While teleporting can feel meaningful in the player's hand, it quickly devolves into unfair retardation when overly used by the AI (eg DA2). I consider this to be a bandaid solution at best.

3.2 Possible solutions: mobility tools

The most logical solution to the problem is providing melee builds with tools to close the gap faster, be it gear, feats, perks or whatever BUT without breaking the movement system. Ideally such power shouldn't come for free and must have an associated opportunity cost. I like the "speed" stat in certain games as they demonstrate the potential of gridless systems. Underrail's solution of separating AP and MP is also quite elegant and it's puzzling how nobody thought of something like that before. There's also "movement AP" that some neo-Fallout games like CSG use. Balancing said tools to avoid them being too oppressive or inefficient is the real challenge a developer will face. OTOH I think including melee and providing it with no gap closing tools (like Vigilantes) is a sign of amateur development or just ticking a checkbox.

3.3 Possible solutions: stealth

Whether it's Sith assassins sneaking up on you or Blood silently approaching some unfortunate soul in Jagged Alliance 2, stealth presents itself as a viable solution for closing the gap. That's rarely stealth's only application and many games feature silenced weapons doing the same thing but better. So in order for stealth to be an actual melee tool there needs to be some extra incentive to mix it with melee, otherwise a stealth sniper will simply be better. There's also the quality of life issue, as crouch walking slowly through the map tends to be very, very boring, ESPECIALLY when done in turns.

3.4 REAL sniping or melee: pick one

The overwhelming majority of RPGs feature "fake sniping", meaning they put sniper rifles in the game but their range is usually the same as ARs or maybe slightly longer. Real sniping needs a distance of 300 meters at the very least and these very long ranges are rarely featured in RPGs, while being more common in tactical games such as Jagged Alliance 3 and several JA 2 mods. Of course, having real sniping in your game brings its own issues, but for the purpose of this thread we will focus on its impact in melee. If the engagement distances in your game favor real sniping then it's obvious that melee becomes completely and utterly outclassed. On the other hand, if you provide shorter engagement distances for the sake of making melee viable then there will be no real sniping in your game. Any attempts to do both result in the worst of both worlds, making both builds only work half the time.

*the ability to critically wound or outright kill the opponent before their turn comes up

4. Spreading yourself too thin: the stat problem

Melee weapons are force multipliers while firearms are not. In gaming terms this real life observation translates into the strength stat being important for melee and a dump stat for ranged. In most RPGs combat isn't even the only thing players are doing, there's also a social stat (eg Charisma) and a skill/utility stat (intelligence). Gunslingers will usually be able to spare a few points in these non-combat stats because of their inherent advantage while melee characters will typically dump them since they need all the help that they can get. The health stat (endurance) is also a huge culprit in this equation as melee builds usually need more survivability. Defense will get its own point, but for now I'll settle with pointing out that in the majority of RPGs the stat system is designed in a way that screws melee builds.

4.1 The solution? Ditch SPECIAL and do better

Fallout and its offspring use a system that inherently fucks melee builds in the ***. There's no bandaid solution for the stat problem, it needs to be well thought out and designed from the ground up, like in Underrail. For starters I'll say the strength stat needs to do more than just increase melee damage. I remember an old tabletop system I once played having a "physique" stat that was essentially STR + END rolled into one. It makes sense to put some measure of defense on the STR stat, be it hit points, armor requirements or something else. Any implementation of mobility tools should also be reflected in the stat system, as having "1AP/one square" movement is a recipe for melee sucking. I also believe tying AP to DEX alone makes it the KING stat and ruins the system. INT providing MORE COMBAT progression? Lmao. Just lmao. No.

4.2 What not to do: Sawyerism

Pillars of Eternity (medieval game, I know, but wait, hear me out) created a "power" attribute that increases damage across the board. This could, theoretically, be applied to a game set in the modern era, but it's the worst solution possible. By tying gun damage to a stat you abolish their main distinction of not being force multipliers. You solved the melee vs gun debate by making both equally boring. Congratulations, here's your daily dose of soy and bugs, now go ride your bike while the bull satisfies your wife.

5. No dedicated defense = no dice

All combat characters need to worry about not dying, but melee builds tend to incur a higher risk of kicking the bucket. The gap widens when you realize most RPGs feature equal defensive options for both builds. Swinging a big hammer in Power Armor? Cool, but you can get the same protection while sniping. Melee characters need to have SOMETHING to protect them from all the bullets and lack of cover.

5.1 Blaster deflection

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In Star Wars Jedi defend themselves against blasters by either deflecting or reflecting the bolt with their lightsabers. The SW D20 ruleset provides rolls for these actions and is IMO a good example of a well thought out solution to the problem. In MGS Grey Fox parries your bullets with his sword. Not an RPG, but the point stands: the melee guy needs to have something in his arsenal to prevent the Indiana Jones scene from happening.

5.2 Exclusive perks

CSG and Underrail address the issue by giving melee builds access to certain feats that tend to be more effective than their ranged counterpart in terms of providing a mix of defense and offense. In RPGO (Xcom 2 mod) the Samurai can get big bonuses to evasion and mobility via certain origin feats. I think proper balance must be maintained to avoid solving the problem by just giving the melee character a much bigger stat stick. Melee should have a more efficient defense and that also relates to the previous point. It's very, VERY hard to evaluate the true value of range, but it seems obvious to me that melee options can't just copy paste the numbers of ranged options (like in Vigilantes, **** that game).

5.3 Gear requirements

I'm not a fan of STR requirements on weapons as it tends to homogenize stat distributions across the board. But armor? Hell yeah! Establishing a pattern of "more strength, better defense" is a tried and true way of providing melee characters with stronger defense compared to their ranged counterparts. Having your melee guys hoarding your best armor while gunners use what's available is a decent solution to the problem. It should be mentioned, however, that most RPGs try to "balance" light armor and heavy armor, resulting in light armor being just as good, which completely ruins the point of a stat requirement in the first place.

6. Many foes, even more issues

The player character(s) are always outnumbered in RPGs and in many cases area of effect damage tends to be the better solution for enemy mobs. And that's another area where melee struggles as they are rarely provided with AoE options, unlike say riflemen and their underbarrel grenade launchers. I don't think this issue can be solved without stepping into anime territory. Devs should instead focus on making melee characters really GOOD single target damage dealers and let other archetypes handle AoE. Adding salt to the wound, melee characters need to reposition and close another gap once they kill their designated target, while gunners can simply choose another target for shooting. Good implementation of line of sight, cover and obstacles slightly address this issue, but melee's inherent weakness in that regard can't really be fixed. OH, and having one of your guys in melee tends to make using explosives trickier.

7. (Un)focused fire

Focus fire for gunslingers is usually simple whereas melee attackers need to run up to a new target. In games where the melee hero can dispatch enemies in a single turn without any help this is not a problem, but as soon as a "boss" and his lieutenants show up the issue becomes more apparent.

8. Conclusion

Making melee a meaningful option is HARD and goes way beyond designing a few knives and calling it a day. Devs should either take these issues into consideration and come up with solutions for them OR just skip melee entirely. I hate half assed systems and I believe RPGs set in the modern era can skip melee entirely. Just like in real life.
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Alpha striking isn't just an issue in turn based RPGs, but in any game with meaningfully non-continuous damage. The problem is worse if taking damage reduces combat effectiveness to any meaningful degree.
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Post by maidenhaver »

If I was in the worldbuilding stages of a role playing game that had plentiful guns, magic, and swordsmen then I'd begin with the assumption everyone in the world knows that. I'd assume dungeons and castles eschew long passageways for tight corridors, with many right angles. I'd telepaths are highly valued. How mundane is the magic: can magic shields stop bullets? Does everyone carry a scroll of haste? Are elven or dwarven deathsquads with infrared vision Judge Dredding people through walls with enchanted bullets? Is there a hex around a city that simply makes alchemical reactions impossible? This is before combat's even propositioned. I like the idea of hobbit sharp-shooters lying in wait for days to make one shot becoming the most terrifying and present danger in the world, and telepathy growing out of magical paranoiacs as the magical world's natural adaptation.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

maidenhaver wrote: June 24th, 2026, 16:29
I like the idea of hobbit sharp-shooters lying in wait for days to make one shot becoming the most terrifying and present danger in the world
didn't wh40k do this
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Post by Tweed »

rusty_shackleford wrote: June 24th, 2026, 19:47
maidenhaver wrote: June 24th, 2026, 16:29
I like the idea of hobbit sharp-shooters lying in wait for days to make one shot becoming the most terrifying and present danger in the world
didn't wh40k do this
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Post by Tweed »

ratsnipe.webp
Not your dad's hobbits.
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