Spiderweb Software's RPGs

[Rand]

Anyone else enjoyed Spiderweb Software's RPGs?
I like the older ones better than the newer ones, but the newer ones are still pretty good, in my opinion.

Made by a single dev. He contracts out for art and uses publicly available music.

[Acrux]

Jeff has made some fine games over the years. But he is old.

[rusty_shackleford]

where possible, play the originals with few exceptions
the remakes tend to be dumbed down

[Watser]

Finished Exile II yesterday.

[agentorange]

The Geneforge games are great. They are the closest games I can think of to Fallout in terms of the general pacing and structure, they capture that sense of mystery and adventure that gradually unfolds as you explore a semi-open world from a variety of directions.

The graphics are so basic that they are somewhat beyond reproach, similar to an ASCII rogue-like or DCSS. Same cannot be said of the remake which is simply abhorrent and the fact that he got a bunch of people off of fiverr to make all kinds of assets that clash shows he did not give a **** (I don't mind really ugly games if it's like ToME or even KotC2 where it's one clueless naïve person doing all the visuals and it at least has some style to it, but the remake of Geneforge is just insulting).

[WhiteShark]

I've only played Geneforge: Mutagen, the remake of 1, but I highly enjoyed it. Maybe I just expected it to look bad and was therefore unperturbed, but the graphics didn't bother me. The game is very free and open, which was refreshing. I played a shaper and had great fun wandering around the island and building up my mutant monster horde.

[Rand]

I've only played Geneforge: Mutagen, the remake of 1, but I highly enjoyed it. Maybe I just expected it to look bad and was therefore unperturbed, but the graphics didn't bother me. The game is very free and open, which was refreshing. I played a shaper and had great fun wandering around the island and building up my mutant monster horde.

Try (original) Avernum 1 through 3.
1 is good, 2 is really good, 3 is excellent, 4 is just good enough, 5 is okay, 6 is good but not quite up to 1.

It's in the older games section of the website (https://www.spiderwebsoftware.com/products.html)





They may be somewhat tricky to get running on a modern OS, but there are workarounds.

The GoG versions work okay, it seems.

[Rand]

Finished Exile II yesterday.

That's awesome. I know how difficult it is because of the old interface, so that's an accomplishment.

[Kalarion]

Try (original) Avernum 1 through 3.

Do not do this. Start with the Exiles, they are better in almost every single way to their Avernum counterparts. They also have the distinct advantage of being freeware.

The only things the Exiles don't do better than the Avernums is the discovery and acquisition of secret skills through skill crystals and synergies, and the spell skill system. I would recommend playing Exiles 1-3, and then skipping straight to Avernum 3 for the best experience.

I know how difficult it is because of the old interface, so that's an accomplis[ed: H]ment.

@RUSTY BAN HIM NOW. NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW

[rusty_shackleford]

a lot of old UIs suck tho. It's a major issue with getting into otherwise very good games.
I haven't played the original Exile games so I can't comment.

[J1M]

I found the Exile conversation method to be pretty natural.

[Watser]

Finished Exile II yesterday.

That's awesome. I know how difficult it is because of the old interface, so that's an accomplisment.

What's difficult about the old interface?

[Oyster Sauce]

I was having a lot of fun with Geneforge but never finished it. Does the series peak early or keep getting better?

[Rand]

Try (original) Avernum 1 through 3.

Do not do this. Start with the Exiles, they are better in almost every single way to their Avernum counterparts. They also have the distinct advantage of being freeware.

The only things the Exiles don't do better than the Avernums is the discovery and acquisition of secret skills through skill crystals and synergies, and the spell skill system. I would recommend playing Exiles 1-3, and then skipping straight to Avernum 3 for the best experience.

I know how difficult it is because of the old interface, so that's an accomplis[ed: H]ment.

@RUSTY BAN HIM NOW. NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOW NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW

There is little chance people will play Exile III, much less Exile II or Exile.
The interfaces and game design is way too primitive.

[Rand]

Finished Exile II yesterday.

That's awesome. I know how difficult it is because of the old interface, so that's an accomplisment.

What's difficult about the old interface?

Issues with the minimap, issues with the inventory (it sucks ***), issues with conversations...
Exile III is the most improved of the three and IS playable despite some jank.
Exile and Exile II can be very frustrating with the crappier interface design.

Avernum lost a couple of things but gained massive accessibility as a result.

The newer Avernum remakes (1 to 3), while okay, sacrificed even more and are not particularly better.

[Rand]

I was having a lot of fun with Geneforge but never finished it. Does the series peak early or keep getting better?

It improves over the course of the games, but if you lost interest in 1, they don't change the gameplay much.

[Watser]

That's awesome. I know how difficult it is because of the old interface, so that's an accomplisment.

What's difficult about the old interface?

Issues with the minimap, issues with the inventory (it sucks ***), issues with conversations...

What's wrong with the minimap?
Only issue I had with inventory is the choice of color palette which sometimes made it difficult to see if an item was equipped.
What's wrong with the conversations?

[Rand]

What's difficult about the old interface?

Issues with the minimap, issues with the inventory (it sucks ***), issues with conversations...

What's wrong with the minimap?
Only issue I had with inventory is the choice of color palette which sometimes made it difficult to see if an item was equipped.
What's wrong with the conversations?

The inventory was too artificially limited. It was especially hard on archers.
The conversation system of Exile III was decent. Before that it was a pain from the 80s.
The minimap was pretty uninformative, and in Exile (and maybe Exile II, I forget) it had a bad habit of popping back in the way or disappearing and having to be re-summoned when certain pop-ups happened.

[Agesilaus]

I greatly enjoyed Nethergate and Geneforge during the CRPG dark ages. The Geneforge series in particular is right up there among the best crpgs of all time. I think the Geneforge 1 remake is fine, I'm sure the remake of the sequel will be good, too.

[Falksi]

Funnily enough I'm just replaying Avernum: Escape From The Pit at the moment. Fantastic game. One which any aspiring RPG dev should be made to play and study, it's incredible how right it gets so many things.

[J1M]

Somewhat surprised to see people recommending the remakes with smaller party size.

[Rand]

Funnily enough I'm just replaying Avernum: Escape From The Pit at the moment. Fantastic game. One which any aspiring RPG dev should be made to play and study, it's incredible how right it gets so many things.

That's the second remake, if I correctly interpreted your comment.
It's okay, but IMO the Avernum (remake of Exile) was better gameplay-wise.
I also liked the sprites better. I even modded it (hard AF to do since: hardcoded ****. I had to hex-edit the executable.)

In case anyone is interested, here are my hacking notes:

► Show Spoiler

Avernum Executable Mod (FOR V 1.0.3 ONLY)

You WILL have to have a good hex editor and be familiar with how to use it.

The avernum_solo mod is intended to allow a single character to be able to have many traits without a massive XP penalty.
See the "Experience penalties for traits" Section at the end for details.
===========================================================================
Set the maximum coins from 9000 to 30000:

There is one remaining glitch: if you are close to 30000 coins and sell something REALLY expensive (thousands of coins) then your coins value will reset to zero!
So don't do that. It seems to work well in other areas, but maybe you should think about buying some things if you have over 25000 coins, just to be safe.

(This is still a lot better than dealing with the ultra-low 9000 coin limit)

Character editor coins maximum
Offset  1A73C: 28 to 30
Offset  1A73D: 23 to 75

Item sales coins maximum (if coins > XX XX, then coins = XX XX)
Offset   3A73: 28 to 30
Offset   3A74: 23 to 75

Maximum coins for looting subroutine (if coins > XX XX, then coins = XX XX)
Offset  34468: 28 to 30
Offset  34469: 23 to 75

NOTE: it's fastest to search for this series of hex numbers 00506828230000 (it's the same for all three and only applies to these three functions)

Change the displayed maximum amount message from 9000 to 30000
Offset 92B406
from    39 00 30 00 30 00 30 00 20 00 6D 00 61 00 78 00 69 00 6D 00 75 00 6D 00 29
to      33 00 30 00 30 00 30 00 30 00 20 00 4D 00 61 00 78 00 29 00 20 00 20 00 20
============================================================================================================================
Character max weight allowance:

In the standard code, maximum weight allowance is 50 plus 30 times the character's strength.

There are two ceilings (maximum values allowed by the code).

First is the max weight ceiling, normally 350 (but in the hex code it's 3500 because item weight is calculated in the code using tenths of a unit).

Change max weight ceiling from 350 to 500 (note that it's tenths, so the numbers will be 3500 and 5000 in a hex editor, little endian).
Offset  3420A:  AC  to  88
Offset  3420B:  0D  to  13

But there is an attribute ceiling as well. It's normally 10.
If the strength attribute is equal to or greater than this number, 
then the maximum weight allowance for the character is set to the max weight ceiling (350, or 3500 tenths). 

The code is basically: If STR >= (the attribute ceiling number), then max weight allowance = {whatever the ceiling you set is}
                       Else, max weight allowance = 50 + (STR * 30).

What this means is that if you change the max weight ceiling to 500, but don't adjust the attribute ceiling, 
a strength of 9 has a max weight of 320, but a strength of 10 jumps to 500 (it should be 350).

This is because a strength of 10 equals a max weight of 350, equal to the default max weight ceiling.
But you changed it to 500, so it doesn't calculate it, it just sets it to that value if strength is 10 or higher.
(I guess it saves a tiny fraction of computation time)
Unfortunately, this is now wrong, and it must be fixed.

What you have to do is figure out what strength value puts you closest to your set max weight ceiling and set the attribute ceiling to that value.
For 500, it's strength 15 (500 - 50 = 450, 450 / 30 = 15).

Now, strengths 15 and above are set to the max weight ceiling (which was changed to 500).
All lesser strengths are calculated based on the 50 + (STR * 30) formula.

This is the attribute ceiling (strength) value.
From decimal 10 to decimal 15:
Offset  34206:  0A  to  0F

============================================================================================================================
Shop Cost Multipliers
0   Extremely Cheap     Original: 0.5   Mod: 0.5    Offset 7D164:  no change
1   Very Reasonable     Original: 0.7   Mod: 0.8    Offset 7D168:  07  08
2   Pretty Average      Original: 1.2   Mod: 1.0    Offset 7D16C:  0C  0A
3   Slightly Expensive  Original: 1.5   Mod: 1.2    Offset 7D170:  0F  0C
4   Expensive           Original: 1.8   Mod: 1.5    Offset 7D174:  12  0F
5   Exorbitant          Original: 2.2   Mod: 2.0    Offset 7D178:  16  14
6   Utterly Ridiculous  Original: 2.8   Mod: 2.5    Offset 7D17C:  1C  19

============================================================================================================================
Spell Base Costs

begin at 83378 (running to 833BF)

OLD
32001E004B004B004B00500064005A00960096009600FA00C800C8002C01F401F401F40128002800320032004B0064007D004B00640096009600AF00C800C8002C01F401F401F401

NEW
32001900190032004B004B00640032004B0064009600FA009600C800C8002C019001F40119001900320032004B006400640032006400960096006400C800C8002C01F40190012C01

============================================================================================================================
Since the character full-body portraits are in the executable, changing them involves embedding revised versions.
They're basically bitmaps stripped of the headers, but they must be absolutely identical in size (byte wise).
I updated three of them:

the female in the long green dress was replaced with a modified version
(changes begin at offset 8BE6CC and run to 8E111B)

the barbarian girl was modified as well
(changes begin at offset 74110C and run to 763D83)

as was mister fancy red pants     
(changes begin at offset 7A944C and run to 7CBE9B)

============================================================================================================================
Experience penalties for traits:

Can be found beginning at offset 86ADC

Offset      0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  B  C  D  E  F

00082DD0   0A 00 0F 00 0F 00 0F 00 0F 00 14 00 14 00 19 00
00082DE0   1E 00 28 00 EC FF EC FF E2 FF E2 FF D8 FF 00 00

                  ORIGINAL                        SUGGESTED MOD
Great Renown         10     Offset 86ADC - 0A 00
Nimble Fingers       15     Offset 86ADE - 0F 00
Beastmaster          15     Offset 86AE0 - 0F 00
Strong Will          15     Offset 86AE2 - 0F 00
Good Education       15     Offset 86AE4 - 0F 00
Toughness            20     Offset 86AE6 - 14 00
Fast on Feet         20     Offset 86AE8 - 14 00
Natural Mage         25     Offset 86AEA - 19 00
Elite Warrior        30     Offset 86AEC - 1E 00
Divinely Touched     40     Offset 86AEE - 28 00
Cursed At Birth     -20     Offset 86AF0 - EC FF
Sickness Prone      -20     Offset 86AF2 - EC FF
Sluggish            -30     Offset 86AF4 - E2 FF
Brittle Bones       -30     Offset 86AF6 - E2 FF
Completely Inept    -40     Offset 86AF8 - D8 FF

The avernum_solo mod is intended to allow a single character to be able to have many traits without a massive XP penalty.
It reduces the XP trait cost to only 5% each. It doesn't remove the two trait limit (couldn't figure out the hack yet) 
but it works fine if you hack the save file to add whichever traits you want.

The edited pc pics (revised on right):


Yes, I was once quite a good modder, but I rarely published my stuff since my mods were personalized changes to generally lesser played games.

[Rand]

Somewhat surprised to see people recommending the remakes with smaller party size.

I played Exile III with a two character party a while back.
One physical character (warrior-thief) and one magic character (divine and arcane magic).
It was quite playable, but had a few issues. Mainly carrying capacity.
So I modded the PC sprite sheets so I could have two "packhorses) with max strength and CC traits, and just ran them away at the beginning of every battle.

[NEG]

The Exile series was fantastic. The Avernum redux of it less so, but I still enjoyed it immensely. Geneforge 1 & 2 were great, but after that the series felt like pointless repetition.

All of the remakes he's done seem like pale imitations of the originals.

I never played that Avadon game he made, but I tried Queen's Wish a bit and was surprised by the racial reactivity - the game defaults to a woke black royal family, but if you make a white character, that disappears from the intro screen and you get a proper European royal family.

[NEG]

The edited pc pics (revised on right):

Why did you remove the nipples from the mage's robe?

[rusty_shackleford]

All of the remakes he's done seem like pale imitations of the originals.

Because they are. He does this for money, not because he actually enjoys it. Someone who is making a passion project doesn't stop to run the numbers on whether it's worth paying an artist like Vogel has in his blogposts, they do it because it will be a better game.

[gerey]

Problem is, he'd make more money if he actually invested in the presentation and UI of his games.

Instead all his games look like they were made with crayons - anyone that stumbles upon them and isn't aware of Vogel's creative output will dismiss them as cheap asset flips.

[Lich]

Just improving the color scheme would significantly better his games, as shown by that Avernum recolored mod.

[Rand]

The edited pc pics (revised on right):

Why did you remove the nipples from the mage's robe?

They weren't well done, and they stood out (lol) against the other female pics.
I also improved the volume and shape a bit, so there's that.

[Lutte]

The geneforge games are better sedatives than xanax if you are insomniac and need something to help you sleep.