The Elder Scrolls

[maidenhaver]

Stats should never move. That's been my problem with their system for forever. If your Attributes aren't fixed, they're skills. I don't mean potions of strength or augments, but leveling stats is ********.

[rusty_shackleford]

We got rid of attributes in Skyrim and you know who complained? Almost nobody.

I def heard plenty of complaints about their omission. Then again, I can see how it'd be hard to hear complaints with his head in the sand.

I actually agree with the idea of removing attributes: They were just skills by another name, with a convoluted process of how to gain them that required you to twist your play in decidedly abnormal ways, to hit the maximum level-up bonus. Having stats that both derive from and backfeed into other stats is really kind of demented.

I wonder if D&D would even have attributes(ability scores) if it was made today and there would be no legacy reason to keep them
At the very least I'd see ability scores at character creation being removed. You rolled your ability scores then picked your class, there's no use in buying ability scores after picking your class, just give people an optimized set.

[Norfleet]

I wonder if D&D would even have attributes(ability scores) if it was made today and there would be no legacy reason to keep them
At the very least I'd see ability scores at character creation being removed. You rolled your ability scores then picked your class, there's no use in buying ability scores after picking your class, just give people an optimized set.

Ability scores are very much a legacy system, since under point buy, ability scores are functionally class, with very little room for variation unless your goal is to multiclass, which is, well, just another class. And also, filthy buildfaggotry.

[rusty_shackleford]

Ability scores are very much a legacy system, since under point buy, ability scores are functionally class, with very little room for variation unless your goal is to multiclass, which is, well, just another class. And also, filthy buildfaggotry.

I like the original AD&D demihuman multiclass system where you pick your classes upfront. I always thought that was superior to the 3E multiclass.

[Norfleet]

I like the original AD&D demihuman multiclass system where you pick your classes upfront. I always thought that was superior to the 3E multiclass.

That system was a game balance nightmare in multiplayer, really. If you just had one player, one DM, it was handy for covering shortages in your nonexistent party competition, and the increased power level was largely offset by being solo and constrained by action economy and loadout limitations.

But when multiplayer was involved, you had one character that was severely lagging in level behind the rest of the party. Unless everyone was doing it.

And then there's when that show goes to vidya.

[rusty_shackleford]

But when multiplayer was involved, you had one character that was severely lagging in level behind the rest of the party. Unless everyone was doing it.

You'd only lag a level or so because of how XP tables worked

[Norfleet]

You'd only lag a level or so because of how XP tables worked

XP tables in those days were weird, with every class having its own more different XP table, too.

This concept often ported itself into MUDs, where you could customize your class by taking more skillsets at the cost of higher XP cost per level, because the game was designed with the assumption that you wanted to speedrun to the glory of becoming a max level "hero", and NOT simply stake out an optimal PK-range span and just murder everyone and take their stuff.

[DemoGraph]

At the very least I'd see ability scores at character creation being removed. You rolled your ability scores then picked your class, there's no use in buying ability scores after picking your class, just give people an optimized set.

On the plus side, ability scores create character bio. There's no easy way to show that your dude is misshapen weakling than negative mods to str and cha. Skills values are usually >= 0, so to represent below standard abilities, you'll have to base them at 10 or something. And it's unintuitive to, e.g., have some physical skills begin at 10, while some knowledges have to begin at 0 (languages, sciences).

Also, you do want skills having different difficulties, because it's much harder to improve general intelligence or body fortitude than learn how to drive. And if you do have several price types for stats, why not return to ability+skill.

You can do skills + feats. But then you'll have harder time giving stats to, e.g. subhuman intelligences (plant, toddler, cat, kid and teen definitely have varying mental faculties). After some time you'll have to introduce so many feat levels that they basically become interval scale in disguise and so become an ability.

Edit: Probably move this branch to skill discussion thread?

[Norfleet]

Yes, advertising the number of skills you had in your game was in vogue at the time.

Yes, and around that time I just started rolling my eyes at it, because how many skills are in the game doesn't matter: It's about many skills are actually RELEVANT to the game, and in most games, those numbers are comparable. It doesn't matter if I have 500 skills/spells if only 10 of them are actually useful, and there are maybe 3 more that you'll maybe use once.

[rusty_shackleford]

What is better—to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?

This is actually a really good quote, as in I wouldn't be surprised if they stole it from somewhere else because it's in Skyrim and not Morrowind

[Norfleet]

What is better—to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?

The answer is trivial, though: It's better for something to be designed that way than it is to have to jury-rig it into compliance at great effort. That allows you to expend the effort on other things. But for the external observer, it makes no difference. Plus, I subscribe to Williamsist alignment.

[KnightoftheWind]

Elder Scrolls but without leveling, stats are entirely dependent on gear like Zelda.

[stormvermin]

Camelworks is ******* dead.

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https://xcancel.com/LoneVaultWander/sta ... 1647338566

[Norfleet]

And it's unintuitive to, e.g., have some physical skills begin at 10, while some knowledges have to begin at 0 (languages, sciences).

To be fair, most of THOSE don't really begin at literal zero, either. A random American may not necessarily have ever spoken or had French spoken at them, but that doesn't mean he has a big fat ZERO in French as if a Frenchman was from Tau Ceti or something. Just knowing English gives you a nonzero understanding of French: The words are similar. Similarly, it's hard to have a complete ZERO at understanding something like "Physics". To have a complete ZERO in Physics, you would have to had never physically existed before. Otherwise, every animal has basically SOME understanding of physics, with some having a better understanding of physics than others. A crow, for instance, understands that rocks can be used to displace water and get food. Meanwhile, a baby doesn't even understand that it has hands, let alone that if it pisses up into the air, the **** will just fall back down on its own face. Babies are stupid creatures.

So, no, most knowledges don't actually begin at zero, either: A Neanderthal-era caveman probably scores a big fat zero in "Nuclear Engineering", while, even if you're not a nuclear engineer, you don't. A zero would be "has absolutely no conception of the concept or how to even engage with it". On the other hand, Attila the Hun has some understanding of Energy Weapons and Spacecraft:

[Norfleet]

Camelworks is ******* dead.

Who? Should I know this person?

[stormvermin]

Camelworks is ******* dead.

Who? Should I know this person?

It's better that you don't.

[wndrbr]

TES6 is going to be the most Indian game ever made.

[maidenhaver]

Photorealism is for *******.

[DecadeRiptide]

32x the detail

[Vergil]

TES is dead and left no successor. The throne is empty.

"Tainted Grail enters the chat"

Why are Tainted Grail fans all insane people

[Vergil]

Camelworks is ******* dead.

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https://xcancel.com/LoneVaultWander/sta ... 1647338566

I don't watch youtube elder scrolls lore videos because I'm not a ******

[Vergil]

The Skyrim main quest is so much better if you play as an Altmer and pretend it's a copy of the Morrowind main quest where you're blessed by Auri-el and the Thalmor send you in to Skyrim to kill Alduin, subvert the prophecy, and force a stalemate between the Empire and Stormcloak to prolong the conflict.

[Vergil]

Also the story and pacing is better if you use an alternate start mod like Skyrim Unbound Reborn, do Dawnguard first, and larp that dragonborn status was bestowed upon you after getting Auri-el's bow instead of just idk guess you were dragonborn lol

[Stack of Turtles]

Also the story and pacing is better if you use an alternate start mod like Skyrim Unbound Reborn, do Dawnguard first, and larp that dragonborn status was bestowed upon you after getting Auri-el's bow instead of just idk guess you were dragonborn lol

I dunno, I prefer the idea of having powers because I'm just genetically special.

[Vergil]

Also the story and pacing is better if you use an alternate start mod like Skyrim Unbound Reborn, do Dawnguard first, and larp that dragonborn status was bestowed upon you after getting Auri-el's bow instead of just idk guess you were dragonborn lol

I dunno, I prefer the idea of having powers because I'm just genetically special.

It's unclear and unlikely dragonborn status is genetic

[Stack of Turtles]

Also the story and pacing is better if you use an alternate start mod like Skyrim Unbound Reborn, do Dawnguard first, and larp that dragonborn status was bestowed upon you after getting Auri-el's bow instead of just idk guess you were dragonborn lol

I dunno, I prefer the idea of having powers because I'm just genetically special.

It's unclear and unlikely dragonborn status is genetic

Well, it seems like it's more something that's associated with your soul, but I count that the same thing.

[maidenhaver]

The story made no sense, because they changed it. It was supposed to be about the return of Uriel 5 from Akavir. Tosh Raka suddenly appears, right after Uriel 5's disappearance on his failed crusade, but that'd require work to get the animations and models of the tsaesci right. The Alduindaggavelashadingus fluff was there to color the nords in, not plot the story. BGS decided it was easier to just do zombies and two or three dragon models. Same reason the volkihar got turned gay instead of living in ice, since they're dead and don't need heat. You want to know why Emil writes for 12 year olds? Because the devs over there can't rise above that and deliver.

[rusty_shackleford]

99% of people playing the game know nothing about the lore beyond the basic fantasy elements, perhaps it's not a bad strategy to focus on such

from a market standpoint, anyways

[maidenhaver]

99% of people playing the game know nothing about the lore beyond the basic fantasy elements, perhaps it's not a bad strategy to focus on such

99% of players need to be sent to the gas chambers, and how are they supposed to know the lore if it changes every game?

Yes, market.

[rusty_shackleford]

99% of people playing the game know nothing about the lore beyond the basic fantasy elements, perhaps it's not a bad strategy to focus on such

99% of players need to be sent to the gas chambers, and how are they supposed to know the lore if it changes every game?

Yes, market.

This is why you just make good games, you don't need to be creating wikis and **** with interconnected LORE, just make a good game that's cool and don't actively try to **** **** up