Random (M)MORPG thoughts

[Xenich]

Perm death doesn't work well with long term game play really. It requires a different design or a type of player that doesn't mind spending a lot of time and effort, then having it completely lost.

I agree. You can't slap that design hamhandedly into a Warcraftesque, for certain. You have to design the game around it. But why is that a problem?

It isn't at all. In fact, if the game is well designed around Perm Death, it can work really well, but it is a "flavor" of play. It is like the difference between playing Wizardry and Rogue, one is focused on long term progression, failure being a process of reloading and approaching the failed encounter from different angles, Rogue being about management of play and progression centered around the concept of lasting as long as you can before you start over and try again. So I get it, even like it when done properly, but ultimately that is a different genre and style, something I am not looking for in a long term cRPG style of play.

I think the last I truly was into PvP with serious play and dedication was the MUDing days, but then those games were designed around perm death PvP as progressing up was very quick once you learned the game.

Honestly, mostly the same, with the kind of PvP you're clearly talking about. Direct character-based PvP in a modern MMO is hollow, meaningless, poorly balanced, and largely irrelevant to the rest of the game.

Now, auction house PvP, on the other hand...

Yeah, it gets... old quickly. If I am playing PvP, I like at least a system that has risk and loss, but doesn't punish so hard that recovery is so difficult that it becomes pointless. In PvP, you are going to run into freak crap, you will fail, you will lose, some will do things maybe not entirely "expected" by the developer (maybe even exploiting) and that is the nature of the game, so the recovery has to be something negative enough where you fear it, but not so punishing where you say "There is no way in hell I am putting that much time into this again".

As for AH PvP, well... you know how I feel about that, I would rather it not be present... but as long as it doesn't put a chokehold on game play, I am fine. That said, a true "trader only" game might be interesting though. There was a game years ago (90's) which I can't remember the name of, but it was all about having country, controlling resources and battling over dominance. It was a numbers game... pretty cool, and entirely focused on that concept (ie there wasn't a graphical game play to it). That kind of stuff, yeah... I get it... very cool, so I see some of the allure with AH PvP, but what I dislike about MMOs in that is that there are very few negative consequence controls in them so the "idiots" tend excel even though they don't dominate.

I don't have a problem with people liking those games, but some people just cant stand a game to have that traditional "journey" experience.

Well, the thing is, those games DO NOT EXIST ANYMORE.

I was talking about games like WoW or most modern MMO games where the entire point is sitting at cap raiding for tokens. Granted, it has been years since I have played them, so maybe they changed, I don't know.

Even with Pantheon being this niche game, with a clearly established goal, you still get tons of people coming in throwing tantrums and demanding the game be like all the other games that for some reason they are too bored with to play.

This is why you don't listen to refugees who want to make the new place just like the place they fled from, yes. Me, I took a brief glance over at what Pantheon was offering, namely, a pay-to-lose PvE-centric grindfest game, and immediately walked away. I'm not going to ask that it be changed to accomodate me. I'm just not going to play it. Pay-to-lose is a hard dealbreaker.

That is because you know what you want and don't bother with whining about what is likely not to be met. The people whining are just locusts that have no clue what they want, they just want to push buttons and be entertained. They are like a monkey hitting the dopamine button over and over and if the game doesn't provide that instant gratification easy going "You are a winner!" they scream and rant about how the game won't succeed if it doesn't give them their idiot fix and then go into doom and gloom speeches that if they don't get their way, the game will fail! It is rather tiring.

As I have said in the past, I respect your game play view, may even enjoy it some "for a short time", but you and people who think like you aren't the problem, rather it is the mindless drones who can't seem to understand that what they are asking for is the very thing they got bored with in the numerous games they jumped from.

[rusty_shackleford]

seems LOTRO is finally getting UI scaling, which hopefully means DDO will too (eventually)

[Xenich]

seems LOTRO is finally getting UI scaling, which hopefully means DDO will too (eventually)

Should be nice, but honestly the only problem I ran into with the UI in DDO was the buff bar being locked to either the right or left. Other than that, everything seems to work fine in my extremely wide resolutions (7830x1440) and I am able to place everything in my center monitor for the triple screen setup. Scaling will be a nice addition though.

At some point though, it would be nice to get enough people to play together to do guild/raid stuff. I have picked up lots of crap over the decades it has been out, so I have the "whale" ship and most of the stuff for it up to level... 36. Would be nice to have enough to do the various raids at different levels eventually. If you ever want to run an RPGHQ group using my guild, let me know...

[Norfleet]

That is because you know what you want and don't bother with whining about what is likely not to be met.

I also happen to know there's a broad class of "things I want", that I also know will ultimately doom the game, so I never ask for it, but if a dev unwisely gives it to me unsolicited, I'll be happier than a pig in **** right up until the game goes tango uniform.

Should be nice, but honestly the only problem I ran into with the UI in DDO was the buff bar being locked to either the right or left.

I'll be honest: I've kind of come to hate "buffs". Buffs quickly just become something you're expected to always have running, turning into busywork. Furthermore, devs tend to start providing more and more of them. In the old days of ****** Dead Game, a player might be expected to have like 5 buffs, tops, and thus the buff bar served a purpose. But these days we have joke builds designed to have SO MANY ******* BUFFS that seeing your teammate's buff bars in their teammate readout on the side BLOTS OUT THE SCREEN, and God help everyone if too many of the buffs expire simultaneously, because when several hundred stacked buffs simultaneously expire, the SERVER ******* CRASHES. I hate buffs.

[Xenich]

Should be nice, but honestly the only problem I ran into with the UI in DDO was the buff bar being locked to either the right or left.

I'll be honest: I've kind of come to hate "buffs". Buffs quickly just become something you're expected to always have running, turning into busywork. Furthermore, devs tend to start providing more and more of them. In the old days of ****** Dead Game, a player might be expected to have like 5 buffs, tops, and thus the buff bar served a purpose. But these days we have joke builds designed to have SO MANY ******* BUFFS that seeing your teammate's buff bars in their teammate readout on the side BLOTS OUT THE SCREEN, and God help everyone if too many of the buffs expire simultaneously, because when several hundred stacked buffs simultaneously expire, the SERVER ******* CRASHES. I hate buffs.

Agreed, same argument concerning spell slots if you think about it (a key argument for games like EQ, Pantheon, and M&M). I thought EQ when buffs lasted a maximum of 30 mins was great design. People complained about it, how it became "tiresome" to have to constantly sit down and then do these full package buffs... but the reality is, that was the point. Often it was impractical to do "complete" buffs, and the players and casters had to choose that which was most efficient to manage in a group setting. The caster had to consider mana and it wasn't practical to throw every single buff on every player, especially in heated conditions of camps where spawns put pressure on the group.

Spells had to be considered, weighted to what was best in the situation. Choices and the consequences that came from them.

When MMOs started making buffs long lasting, increasing their times, allowing every class to stack tons of them without thought to management, game play died, strategy in play was removed, and it became pointless. A game that allows classes to throw on tons of long lasting buffs might as well not have them at all. What point does it serve in play? Is there management? Is their choice? No... simply stack a bunch of crap and play.

Long lasting buffs are one of the many cancers of modern focused MMOs. It is the "convivence" that killed game play, took away player choice and consequence and created a numb environment of pushing buttons for entertainment.

[Norfleet]

When MMOs started making buffs long lasting, increasing their times, allowing every class to stack tons of them without thought to management, game play died, strategy in play was removed, and it became pointless. A game that allows classes to throw on tons of long lasting buffs might as well not have them at all.

Oh, man, LONG-lasting buffs? Those may as well just be permanent class features. The buffs I was talking about are very short-lasting buffs, no more than 30 seconds, that are triggered by spamming buttons or through procs, creating a buffbar that is basically an ongoing seizure, with information that is now totally meaningless because it wildly blinks in and out while going all over the screen like some kind of demented light fountain.

[Xenich]

When MMOs started making buffs long lasting, increasing their times, allowing every class to stack tons of them without thought to management, game play died, strategy in play was removed, and it became pointless. A game that allows classes to throw on tons of long lasting buffs might as well not have them at all.

Oh, man, LONG-lasting buffs? Those may as well just be permanent class features. The buffs I was talking about are very short-lasting buffs, no more than 30 seconds, that are triggered by spamming buttons or through procs, creating a buffbar that is basically an ongoing seizure, with information that is now totally meaningless because it wildly blinks in and out while going all over the screen like some kind of demented light fountain.

Yeah, I think I remember some of that at some point, but I dropped out of MMOs when those became standard fare. I get the concept of a strategic move by a class that would create an "effect" that is useful and limited, but to have it turn into a spam effect... yeah... not a big fan. It also concerns me about Pantheons "reactive" system which is similar in many ways. The current concept of it is to use these "group" based reactives to lower offense/defensive abilities of the NPCs, but... the new change will make them normal mobs and have the players using abilities and reactives to stop/remove them from powering up in various things (offense/defense/etc...) and I am not sure if this is a good idea.

Problem is, a lot of modern gamers are so **** and ADD in their mindset that the idea of a simple combat round with damage and basic abilities to accent it isn't enough. They need "kaboom!" "Pazoah!" etc... ot they get bored and think it boring. I don't get it, I used to be on the edge of my seat watching the numbers turn down, looking for basic crits and special attacks to wind the numbers down to see if I won or lost, this whole Vegas level theatric crap is just... annoying and distracting.

[Xenich]

Here is another thought...

For those who want "maps" in the MMOs, why?

Explain "why" you need them? What "exactly" do they provide for you which would be a problem if you did not have them? What problems would you encounter if you did not have a map of the zone and why is that bad for the game?

[rusty_shackleford]

long lasting buffs are fun because you get to cast them on people you encounter or even sell them
imo add reagents or similar 'costs'

[Xenich]

long lasting buffs are fun because you get to cast them on people you encounter or even sell them
imo add reagents or similar 'costs'

What about the damage they do to game play though?

With limited buff times, mana expense becomes a premium in group runs. The caster has to consider what buffs are most important for the situation and the classes that need them. Choices have to be made as to what is best to use. Advantage is gained by those who have larger pools (ie better gear) and this balance is important when camps have low time cycles (ie less time to med because there is constant fighting).

When buffs are long lasting, this entire strategy is lost. With buffs being long time, it gets to the point where people can purchase, of have buffs cast on them which last for hours, meaning they may no longer need to consider certain classes in their group selections.

I think this is what leads to more classes who were once needed for utility starting to complain that they want "more" in play because their benefit is less useful and circumvented by the increased time mechanic. Why bother with a "buffing" class in the group when you can just grab several hour buffs, then head to the dungeon with a DPS loadout? It takes away from game play, creates cheap mechanic approaches to play that did not exist before.

As for "cost" factors like "reagents", easily outpaced by market play. Eventually, "cost" no longer becomes a concern. See early EQ gems for special spells that were easily overpowered by currency inflation in the market over time. Cost factors that can be reduced through currency are not a good balance factor, especially with player markets.

[rusty_shackleford]

What about the damage they do to game play though?

I like sharing buffs

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I like the idea that buffs are expensive in some way. Expensive reagents is one way. Another is the world buffs in WoW, where travelling around the world to get all of them took quite a lot of time, so you would only really do it before heading out to the big raid if your team isn't curbstomping it. You are definitely not going to expend all of that time and effort to get the world buffs for simple questing, a dungeon, or for a raid that is on farm.

[Xenich]

I like the idea that buffs are expensive in some way. Expensive reagents is one way. Another is the world buffs in WoW, where travelling around the world to get all of them took quite a lot of time, so you would only really do it before heading out to the big raid if your team isn't curbstomping it. You are definitely not going to expend all of that time and effort to get the world buffs for simple questing, a dungeon, or for a raid that is on farm.

Making them expensive in any way that the player market can bypass (ie player money made through the market) will outprice it at some point. World buffs? So you run around the world wasting a bunch of time to get certain buffs?

hmm... Tell me how that is better than a class being able to apply low time buffs under limited mana restrictions like release EQ had (ie 30 min max for most buffs)? Seems to me that all the strategy in play was removed from the classes and simply put into time sinks for money or world buffs. Very..,. well... modern MMO solutions to me... the "hassle" is still there, but now it is wasted on useless running around or gold sinks.

They didn't fix the "problem" people complained about, they simply shifted the grind, ultimately taking away the choice and solutions of the player.

Yeah, definitely don't like modern MMOs.

[rusty_shackleford]

just steal the focus mechanic from 5e and make it so you can only buff X amount of people at the same time so I can boof my friends

[Norfleet]

Here is another thought...

For those who want "maps" in the MMOs, why?

Explain "why" you need them? What "exactly" do they provide for you which would be a problem if you did not have them? What problems would you encounter if you did not have a map of the zone and why is that bad for the game?

What do you mean by wanting "maps"? I like maps because they let me plan my attack. That's the usual use of maps. If you mean something like the minimap or an in-game map, I just regard this as a modern convenience for Generation GPS who has completely lost the ability to navigate anywhere without them. It's funny when they get told to "at the light, turn right into tree" and they actually do because they don't know how to get anywhere without both a map and a voice telling them what to do.

[Xenich]

Here is another thought...

For those who want "maps" in the MMOs, why?

Explain "why" you need them? What "exactly" do they provide for you which would be a problem if you did not have them? What problems would you encounter if you did not have a map of the zone and why is that bad for the game?

What do you mean by wanting "maps"? I like maps because they let me plan my attack. That's the usual use of maps. If you mean something like the minimap or an in-game map, I just regard this as a modern convenience for Generation GPS who has completely lost the ability to navigate anywhere without them. It's funny when they get told to "at the light, turn right into tree" and they actually do because they don't know how to get anywhere without both a map and a voice telling them what to do.

In game maps is what I meant. It is a common complaint by many modern MMO players. I just wanted to hear the "reasoning" they give in such. Most of the arguments to its defense are centered more around that they were in some MMOs before EQ for instance, or silly things like "explores in RL used maps", etc... which avoids the point about it being a component of game play. As you said, I think they just don't want to deal with that requirement in play and use excuses to justify it.

I was just wondering if any here had an argument for it and why as I am more likely to get an honest response here than from the average mainstream MMO gamer.

[Xenich]

just steal the focus mechanic from 5e and make it so you can only buff X amount of people at the same time so I can boof my friends

You can still buff your friends with the limited time system, you just have to be present if they want to continue to have those buffs over time and you will have to conserve mana as well as coordinate timing to buff while grouping, which creates decision points and strategy in play.

This also avoids issues of people causing issues in other aspects of the games balance, travel for instance. In release EQ, running somewhere at speeds that could out run a mob required a run speed spell, but... since it was limited on time, that benefit had limitations, meaning you needed to travel with a class that could do it (Shaman, Druid, Bard, etc...) or your speed would run out and zones became very risky to traverse.

When buffs were extended to extreme times, people would run to a hub, collect all their buffs and then go about the world without concern. The "buffing" classes then had less use because they were no longer a necessity in the group play dynamic. This took away class reliance and interaction within the groups and the "buff bot" was born who sat at the zone lines buffing people because it was no longer a big hassle to manage (especially with group and raid buffs able to cast on a large amount of people).

I noticed this was an issue in Heroes Journey, where part of the problem was people played less buffing classes because they could simply run to the Bazaar and get full buffs, then go back into the world. An entire concept of game play management was removed from play and as I said, this caused issues in other game play mechanics.

A simple "convenience" had drastic effects over the entire game. My point in this discussion was how simple things like this reverberate throughout the game destroying numerous subtle mechanics in play. Basically, it is a "pebble in the pond" effect.

[Kalarion]

Here is another thought...

For those who want "maps" in the MMOs, why?

Explain "why" you need them? What "exactly" do they provide for you which would be a problem if you did not have them? What problems would you encounter if you did not have a map of the zone and why is that bad for the game?

The why is obvious. Without maps it's very easy to get lost. The first thing you'd think when getting lost would be, "I need a map" or "I should make a map". Why can't you do it?

But I do like the idea of maps coming with a cost. My favorite implementation is the Cartography skill in Eschalon. Low skill gets you maps with fuzzy outlines and very low detail. At very low skill the maps are close to unreadable, only giving a vague outline of the area with no or childish MS Paint-level coloring. As skill increases the map's fidelity increases, until eventually every feature in the game world is recorded in exacting detail, in color.

FF XI also did it reasonably well. You're provided with maybe half a dozen zone maps to start, along with all city maps. Every other zone's map has to be either purchased or quested for. Even then they only show the general layout of the zone with easily distinguished features.

I also think EQ's eventual implementation of the in-game map function was pretty promising. You didn't start with a map, but you could make your own, or import others'. What I would have liked to see was mapping associated with a trade-skill (so, subject to the same restrictions and limitations as other trade-skills), and player-made maps having to be given directly in-game from player to player, like any other trade. I feel like it would have produced its own very cool economy.

[DemoGraph]

Here is another thought...

For those who want "maps" in the MMOs, why?

Explain "why" you need them? What "exactly" do they provide for you which would be a problem if you did not have them? What problems would you encounter if you did not have a map of the zone and why is that bad for the game?

I want craftable and tradeable maps. Those would be especially cool for the changing terrain (floating or flying islands, shifting mazes, etc., moving political borders), because they could become consumable and/or tool to record history and a cherished possession.

I also want maps without GPS tracker on them. Unless those are artifacts, like HP Marauder map.

[Norfleet]

silly things like "explores in RL used maps", etc...

I mean, if you had a map if what you were exploring, you wouldn't be exploring it, now would you?

I was just wondering if any here had an argument for it and why as I am more likely to get an honest response here than from the average mainstream MMO gamer.

Arguments for it: Providing players with a map is a convenience factor over forcing them to do something like draw it in MSPAINT or even a dead tree, which increases the accessibility of the game.

Arguments against it: **** those guys. Filthy peasants.

That's basically it in a nutshell. There's only so much you can make a game convenient before there's no game. The ultimate endpoint of convenience is ProgressQuest.

[Xenich]

Like I said, I am looking at a having no map as a part of game play, the negatives it produces in play when you are first exploring an area.

I honestly don't have a problem with some type of skill that over time becomes a map of note, as long as it has a long term progression like lots of other skills have.

EQ's map addition was an interesting start, but it quickly turned into people uploading entire maps already done which defeated the entire concept of the game play. I think the suggestion on it being a skill could work if it were implemented slowly and couldn't be gimmicked easily.

I know you can't "stop" people from cheating game play, and I am fine that people will use external sources, I just don't want the cheat added to the game directly, be it by default or even purchase through the AH or the like. I think like any character skill, it should be earned "within" the game or not in at all.

The idea of having it as a skill is interesting though. Zone maps being tied to skills like @Kalarion mentioned could work and it could have layers to its progression influenced by skill, attributes, and even class/race selection for added bonus on it. I would prefer the map to be... more abstract though, allowing some detail, but not a direct representation. You could still have details that show up, more specific things to note a detail in an area (building, maybe some main roads, etc...), but never where it is essentially a GPS representation of the actual zone. For a fantasy game, that exactness seems... a bit "on the nose" if you understand what I mean.

The point is not having maps removing the responsibility of game play. The player should have to learn the entire zone. They shouldn't be able to simply hit a key and have everything outlined where they can go, at least until they have spent enough time that the normal person would be able to learn the zone from memory anyway. One of the nice things about the process of learning zones is that it was an achievement in and of itself and it provided value to those who spent the time to learn the zones. Being a monk in EQ having to pull constantly required a lot of effort in learning a zone so you didn't die constantly on a pull because you got turned around and didn't know where you were going. A map should not allow this game play aspect to be circumvented, I think it is important in that progression, but then I may be in the minority here.

[Oyster Sauce]

whoa, they made everquest good

[Xenich]

whoa, they made everquest good

Honestly, I don't see the point in that. WoW, but with an EQ skin?

[rusty_shackleford]

Runescape solved the server issue 27 years ago, the only reason to actually segregate players is for different rulesets

[rusty_shackleford]

whoa, they made everquest good

eq water gives me motion sickness and I have to replace the textures

[Stack of Turtles]

whoa, they made everquest good

Honestly, I don't see the point in that. WoW, but with an EQ skin?

wow > eq

[Xenich]

whoa, they made everquest good

Honestly, I don't see the point in that. WoW, but with an EQ skin?

wow > eq

Different games, different expectations, different concept and focus of play.

Might as well say Action Games > Turn Based.

[rusty_shackleford]

Going thru my old emails on the oldest email account that didn't get wiped(RIP my yahoo email :/ ), which includes a ton of MMO stuff. So, here's some long forgotten, mostly dead MMORPGs!

Irth Online, 2005
Irth Online PC 2005 Gameplay

BiosFear, 2005 (AKA Lagheim ?)


Tantra Online, 2005
Tantra Online Gameplay - First Look HD

Illarion, didn't we have a thread on this?
Illarion Gameplay Trailer
https://illarion.org/general/us_startpage.php

Legend of Mir 3. LoM2 was actually really good, don't think I liked LoM3 tho!
The Legend of Mir 3 Gameplay - First Look HD

Fairyland Online, 2005. I remember this actually being fun. It was one of the few turn-based MMOs and had charming pre-rendered grafx.
Fairyland Online Gameplay Footage

Auto Assault from NCSoft
Auto Assault \u2013 A Forgotten MMORPG Gem from 2006

---

Bit of a shame I lost all my yahoo emails, that's where the stuff pre-2005 would have been

[methoxetamine]

That Fairyland Online looks sick, wish I knew about it back then

[Xenich]

Wish I would have kept my old EQ stuff from Test server. I had a ton of pics from some very interesting testing, issues, and various experiences... Even having Brad McQuaid grouping with us at times on his Pally. I am horrible about keeping crap like that.