Are SKILLS fun/interesting?

[Norfleet]

Most skill systems give you a percentage chance to succeed, not a boolean pass/fail based on challenge type.

And realistically, this is just more annoyance, since it just means you're forced to savescum as you are offered no other options. Thus it still reduces to a pass/fail outcome because either it is reasonably possible to succeed using the only tool you still have at your disposal (savescumming), or the chance is functionally zero.

[DemoGraph]

Perhaps the question to ask is are skill points interesting?

"Are upgrades interesting?" One more step of abstraction and we go into "are mechanics interesting?".

Yes, they are, if done right. In Bloodlines almost every skill point in disciplines matters (especially if they're focused on casting or stealth, +% in combat disciplines are suckier). And XP is scarce enough in the beginning to midgame to make you really ration them.

[Tweed]

Skills are not fun.
Skills are not interesting.
I guess they somewhat succeed at making the player feel like they made a choice and somewhat succeed at a sense of progression as the number goes up.
Ironically, number-go-up often causes the biggest problems within skill systems as the difficulty ratings scale to higher levels.

A number in a skill doesn't tell me what the character can do or not do. And it doesn't tell the game designer what the average player will do via save scumming.

I would much rather have a quantized set of perks than a skill system. ("You can open bronze locks." -> "You can open silver locks." -> "You can open all locks.")

this is just skills with less skill levels

Most skill systems give you a percentage chance to succeed, not a boolean pass/fail based on challenge type.

This is more of a deterministic vs RNG system problem.

[Norfleet]

Most skill systems give you a percentage chance to succeed, not a boolean pass/fail based on challenge type.

This is more of a deterministic vs RNG system problem.

This problem has become so acute that even D&D has taken steps to abandon it, with take-10 and take-20, which covers pretty much the vast majority of non-combat skill usage cases.

[rusty_shackleford]

It gets lost in a lot of discussion about skill-based RPGs making it harder to differentiate your character, but Arcanum actually does a very good job at it on multiple levels.

[Norfleet]

It gets lost in a lot of discussion about skill-based RPGs making it harder to differentiate your character, but Arcanum actually does a very good job at it on multiple levels.

Arcanum's skill system is...okay. It does what you'd expect of a skills system without being overly abstruse, but it also doesn't address most of the core deficiencies of a skills system in the first place, leaving the matter largely to convention.

[rusty_shackleford]

It gets lost in a lot of discussion about skill-based RPGs making it harder to differentiate your character, but Arcanum actually does a very good job at it on multiple levels.

Arcanum's skill system is...okay. It does what you'd expect of a skills system without being overly abstruse, but it also doesn't address most of the core deficiencies of a skills system in the first place, leaving the matter largely to convention.

I agree but disagree, it actually doesn't have much to do with the skill system I think but just how many options are offered, the different ways they're offered (e.g., traditional skills, tech schematics, magic colleges), along with the tech-magic exclusiveness.

[Gastrick]

Deciding on which skills to allocate skill points to which have real tradeoffs that affect both the near future and the rest of the game are definitely interesting. Fits this video if they're done properly:

[Acrux]

It gets lost in a lot of discussion about skill-based RPGs making it harder to differentiate your character, but Arcanum actually does a very good job at it on multiple levels.

Arcanum's skill system is...okay. It does what you'd expect of a skills system without being overly abstruse, but it also doesn't address most of the core deficiencies of a skills system in the first place, leaving the matter largely to convention.

I agree but disagree, it actually doesn't have much to do with the skill system I think but just how many options are offered, the different ways they're offered (e.g., traditional skills, tech schematics, magic colleges), along with the tech-magic exclusiveness.

I like that the mastery bonuses require quests (some that can be failed) to get them beyond just needing the appropriate number of skill points. One of the few games that does it well.

[Norfleet]

I agree but disagree, it actually doesn't have much to do with the skill system I think but just how many options are offered, the different ways they're offered (e.g., traditional skills, tech schematics, magic colleges), along with the tech-magic exclusiveness.

I'd say the tech-magic exclusiveness is cute, but not actually part of the skill system at all, and ultimately not really any different than, say, the lightside/darkside alignment of KOTOR: You basically have skills aligned along an axis and taking skills of one alignment pushes your alignment towards that axis. This axis is slightly more novel than the usual good/evil axis, but it's still an alignment axis. It's a presentation and part of the world, but isn't really part of the "system", which is that skills have 5 ranks which unlock access to mastery perks you obtain in the game, the highest of which involves a unique quest.

[Acrux]

I agree but disagree, it actually doesn't have much to do with the skill system I think but just how many options are offered, the different ways they're offered (e.g., traditional skills, tech schematics, magic colleges), along with the tech-magic exclusiveness.

I'd say the tech-magic exclusiveness is cute, but not actually part of the skill system at all, and ultimately not really any different than, say, the lightside/darkside alignment of KOTOR: You basically have skills aligned along an axis and taking skills of one alignment pushes your alignment towards that axis. This axis is slightly more novel than the usual good/evil axis, but it's still an alignment axis. It's a presentation and part of the world, but isn't really part of the "system", which is that skills have 5 ranks which unlock access to mastery perks you obtain in the game, the highest of which involves a unique quest.

Um, acktually, skills have 20 ranks. Putting points in points from leveling up gives 4 ranks at a time, but there are other ways to get 1 or two points bonus or maluses.

[maidenhaver]

It gets lost in a lot of discussion about skill-based RPGs making it harder to differentiate your character, but Arcanum actually does a very good job at it on multiple levels.

Arcanum's skill system is...okay. It does what you'd expect of a skills system without being overly abstruse, but it also doesn't address most of the core deficiencies of a skills system in the first place, leaving the matter largely to convention.

I agree but disagree, it actually doesn't have much to do with the skill system I think but just how many options are offered, the different ways they're offered (e.g., traditional skills, tech schematics, magic colleges), along with the tech-magic exclusiveness.

Would have been a great system if designed around no stat growth and a level cap of 16-20.

[Bertram_Tung]

Most of the posts in this thread are a lot funnier if you replace the word "skill" with "erection"

[Stack of Turtles]

Most of the posts in this thread are a lot funnier if you replace the word "erection" with "erection"

Sorry, that one didn't turn out to be one of them