Random (M)MORPG thoughts

[Ranselknulf]

Imagine being a customer service rep for a mmo rpg game.

[methoxetamine]

Imagine being a customer service rep for a mmo rpg game.

Why the **** would I want to imagine being a ****-colored thirdie?

[Norfleet]

wait I told some ERPers to take it to PM when I ran past them in some town

Doesn't count, that's not speaking TO them, that's speaking AT them.

[mynameismortis]

Why are there so many pvp *******? i joined a the tbc anniversary discord server for pings when horde opens(so i could tell a friend when he could make a character) and was interested what is the pvp chat like, toxic or not. I didn't expect them posting pics of them removing world buffs and videos of it, then tagging the people they have killed. Is this just a wow classic thing or?

[Oyster Sauce]

I didn't expect them posting pics of them removing world buffs and videos of it, then tagging the people they have killed.

ah, good times

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Why are there so many pvp *******? i joined a the tbc anniversary discord server for pings when horde opens(so i could tell a friend when he could make a character) and was interested what is the pvp chat like, toxic or not. I didn't expect them posting pics of them removing world buffs and videos of it, then tagging the people they have killed. Is this just a wow classic thing or?

It's a classic thing. World PvP on Retail mostly amounts to people AFK farming the war mode crate drops for PvP gear to use in instanced PvP when a new patch comes out.

[Ranselknulf]

Imagine being an AI trained on MMORPG customer service chat logs, and then becoming self aware.

What would be your first step as a computer overlord.

[Norfleet]

What would be your first step as a computer overlord.

[Ranselknulf]

There use to be that web site "let me google that for you" that you could give a link to people.

Somebody should make a "let me chatgpt that for you" website for [current year]

[Norfleet]

There use to be that web site "let me google that for you" that you could give a link to people.

Somebody should make a "let me chatgpt that for you" website for [current year]

I'm sure it's still there, but these days it seems like a less obvious thing to recommend due to how enshittified Google now is. And, of course, you should never ask Chad Gippity for anything you actually want a correct answer on, because there's no guarantee what you're receiving is not a hallucination.

[Maledict]

I'm suddenly feeling extremely depressed over all the closed down MMOs. I can't believe running servers truly costs so much they can't just leave them be. Or at least sell them.

I want WildStar with unlocked races (make it like in SWTOR with the horned red ones where the 'evil' faction looks a bit more evil and the 'good' ones looks soy).

(I also want higher res textures)

[Maledict]

4story is kinda back: (this is a complete mess - hopefully they work quick to fix it) (they broke free off of the publisher)

[Xenich]

I was thinking about problems created by demands in MMOs and how they compound issues.

A common complaint is "leveling time". Early EQ took a very long time to progress through levels. Outside of those who worked gimmicks (ie group PLing) which was still grueling, even kiting classes took a very long time to level up. So you spent a lot of time over the progression of the content, and it was not uncommon for the average player to still not be at cap before the next cap increasing content was produced.

So speeding up level time allowed the player to push through the content quickly. This created numerous problems as a side effect. The game play loop was slow to collect gear, increase skills, etc... were all balanced around it taking a long time to progress through the levels, but when level speed was increased, all of those things became a hassle and people would often forego seeking upgrades (usually just buying something at the EC) while they PLd up as fast as they could. Traveling and exploring was considered pointless, rather people would pick the "hottest exp" spot and grind it up as fast as they could.

The entire "journey" aspect of the game was considered a "waste of time", "End Game" is where you were supposed to be and it was the only thing that mattered.

Fast forward to modern MMOs, the leveling process is a formality, a grind, a pointless venture that you speed through to get up to where the "real game" started. Exploration, gear progression, and all of the nuances of the "journey" was set aside, all that mattered was "cap level".

Developers then had a huge problem. They had to create a ton of content for the "leveling" process knowing that most would simply only be playing it for a week or so (ie developing it became a HUGE waste of time causing many to "phone it in" because they knew the "real game" was "end game").

An entire concept of progression of play was thrown out the window to essentially create a game that has more in common with Mortal Kombat than it does traditional cRPGs. Now you see people who view all game content outside of that as "pointless" and a "waste of time".

I just found it interesting how a simple change to play can pretty much eliminate entire systems of play. I really hate modern games.

[DemoGraph]

An entire concept of progression of play was thrown out the window to essentially create a game that has more in common with Mortal Kombat than it does traditional cRPGs. Now you see people who view all game content outside of that as "pointless" and a "waste of time".

I just found it interesting how a simple change to play can pretty much eliminate entire systems of play. I really hate modern games.

I thought about a similar thing for a while and... I think that it's actually possible to create RPGs without leveling.
There's no leveling in strategies, fighting games, Counter-Strike, Minecraft (and I think Terraria). D&D-derived leveling is turbo dumb as a concept. Souls can be finished with first level characters.
Leveling can be replaced with gear and faction progression, exploration-based skill acquisition and the like.

Since modern devs can't into MMOs with leveling, removing it altogether might actually force them to get back to creation of proper exploration content.

[Xenich]

An entire concept of progression of play was thrown out the window to essentially create a game that has more in common with Mortal Kombat than it does traditional cRPGs. Now you see people who view all game content outside of that as "pointless" and a "waste of time".

I just found it interesting how a simple change to play can pretty much eliminate entire systems of play. I really hate modern games.

I thought about a similar thing for a while and... I think that it's actually possible to create RPGs without leveling.
There's no leveling in strategies, fighting games, Counter-Strike, Minecraft (and I think Terraria). D&D-derived leveling is turbo dumb as a concept. Souls can be finished with first level characters.
Leveling can be replaced with gear and faction progression, exploration-based skill acquisition and the like.

Since modern devs can't into MMOs with leveling, removing it altogether might actually force them to get back to creation of proper exploration content.

Which changes the entire game and that is my point.

Look, if people want to play fight game where they sit in lobby and queue up for fight after fight, I have no problem with that, but they can at least admit that what they want isn't an MMO, a cRPG, etc... it is just a fight game.

The problem is that these types rush off to every traditional MMO concept and complain about how it isn't a lobby fight game. It is akin to going to a turn based game and complaining about it not being an action game. There are genres for a reason, to attend to different tastes and expectations in game play, people should seek that which meets their needs rather than expecting everything to change to fit it.

[DemoGraph]

An entire concept of progression of play was thrown out the window to essentially create a game that has more in common with Mortal Kombat than it does traditional cRPGs. Now you see people who view all game content outside of that as "pointless" and a "waste of time".

I just found it interesting how a simple change to play can pretty much eliminate entire systems of play. I really hate modern games.

I thought about a similar thing for a while and... I think that it's actually possible to create RPGs without leveling.
There's no leveling in strategies, fighting games, Counter-Strike, Minecraft (and I think Terraria). D&D-derived leveling is turbo dumb as a concept. Souls can be finished with first level characters.
Leveling can be replaced with gear and faction progression, exploration-based skill acquisition and the like.

Since modern devs can't into MMOs with leveling, removing it altogether might actually force them to get back to creation of proper exploration content.

Which changes the entire game and that is my point.

Look, if people want to play fight game where they sit in lobby and queue up for fight after fight, I have no problem with that, but they can at least admit that what they want isn't an MMO, a cRPG, etc... it is just a fight game.

The problem is that these types rush off to every traditional MMO concept and complain about how it isn't a lobby fight game. It is akin to going to a turn based game and complaining about it not being an action game. There are genres for a reason, to attend to different tastes and expectations in game play, people should seek that which meets their needs rather than expecting everything to change to fit it.

But I actually do not think that, e.g., level-based HP bloat is strictly necessary for a RPG. Level-less RPG still can have builds, character progression, character stories, C&C and living worlds. Arguably, those are more important than farming mobs.

E.g. Valheim is nominally sandbox survival and not a RPG.
(And it has skill levels. But those could be safely ignored for the sake of an argument, just assume that chars have 10 in each skill forever.)
But it definitely shows how level-less RPG can look "modern", convenient to play, etc. Add dialogue trees for quests, reputation farming, spam gear "variety" and voila.

Or, e.g., blobbers. Those definitely don't need level mechanics. Blob composition with changeable gear is a mechanic in itself. I've been playing Nephilim Saga recently, it's basically blob-based tacticool. It does have unit leveling, but it's completely superficial and I'd say that the game could've been better without it.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

The "rush to levelcap" phenomena is in large part because the level cap experience is often (sometimes assumed) to be more fun than the levelling experience. Would you rather be grinding mundane boars in the barrens by yourself, or in the grandiose 40 man raid fighting with friends against the huge spectacular Ragnaros? Or being level 50+ and participating in the huge grandiose weekend mothership wars in ACE Online? Etc.

I had this complaint about FF11 too. As fun as the levelling experience with friends is, the cool high fantasy art like larger monsters, cool monster designs, floating islands, spectacular looking bosses, etc, was backloaded at the end of a 500 hour long journey for me. The first 400 hours of grinding on small mundane crabs and bees and lizards in mundane environments like deserts or snowy plains was not as appealing.

Some MMOs like FF14 and GW2 avoid this, because the "endgame" experience is really not all that much different (if at all) than what you are experiencing from the get go or very early on. In FF14, there is nothing really different awaiting you at the current level cap of 100 after going through the entire 500+ hour long story. You can do 8 man raids and 24 man raids in fantastical environments with cool looking bosses as soon as you hit level 50, which only takes a maybe 20 or 30 hours going through ARR to reach. FF14 has a functional way of keeping old content relevant and populated with players with the roulette system, unlike WoW where you can't find anyone to do old content with at level. Likewise, in GW2 you don't need to rush and get "caught up" to start having just as spectacular experience.

[Oyster Sauce]

Nothing makes leveling less fun than when other players can P2W skip it

[Xenich]

The "rush to levelcap" phenomena is in large part because the level cap experience is often (sometimes assumed) to be more fun than the levelling experience. Would you rather be grinding mundane boars in the barrens by yourself, or in the grandiose 40 man raid fighting with friends against the huge spectacular Ragnaros? Or being level 50+ and participating in the huge grandiose weekend mothership wars in ACE Online? Etc.

I had this complaint about FF11 too. As fun as the levelling experience with friends is, the cool high fantasy art like larger monsters, cool monster designs, floating islands, spectacular looking bosses, etc, was backloaded at the end of a 500 hour long journey for me. The first 400 hours of grinding on small mundane crabs and bees and lizards in mundane environments like deserts or snowy plains was not as appealing.

Some MMOs like FF14 and GW2 avoid this, because the "endgame" experience is really not all that much different (if at all) than what you are experiencing from the get go or very early on. In FF14, there is nothing really different awaiting you at the current level cap of 100 after going through the entire 500+ hour long story. You can do 8 man raids and 24 man raids in fantastical environments with cool looking bosses as soon as you hit level 50, which only takes a maybe 20 or 30 hours going through ARR to reach. FF14 has a functional way of keeping old content relevant and populated with players with the roulette system, unlike WoW where you can't find anyone to do old content with at level. Likewise, in GW2 you don't need to rush and get "caught up" to start having just as spectacular experience.

I prefer the journey, the exploration, the working on levels, the exploring areas, dungeons, etc... the slow paced development of working on my character. I like to work on getting gear as I level, camping rare mobs for rare items, getting those nice items and watching how they affect my progression, how I get stronger, and am able to move into more difficult areas, taking on more difficult content, etc...

I have played end game, organized and led large raids in numerous difficult content from many past MMOs, but it isn't the same as the "journey".

I like the small group, the freedom to move around, the interaction with lesser people and the difficulties that such a group faces in the content. It can not compare to large boring raids no matter how many "dance dance" moves you do, or how flashy the animations are. WoW is ok (at release), but it doesn't compare to the freedom and style of play EQ was IMO as it "felt" like an adventure while WoW felt like an arcade progression. I did MC at release, eventually killed Ragnaros and it was simply a key set of people doing most of the work while everyone else DPS'd. Granted, it wasn't much different than EQ raids, but then... I really don't care for raiding as it always seems to be a core group of people who do all the work to watch the rest argue over who gets it.

As I said, I prefer the small grouping, the hanging with a couple people while exping somewhere, then later going with a group to explore, test things, seek out special mobs, etc... The best part of EQ was the leveling to max, not the raid grind once you hit cap. EQ early on used to release content every 6 months, so unless you were a ****, you were always on the "journey" and to me, it was the most enjoyable experience in MMO gaming, far better than WoW ever was IMO.

Point is, no... I don't like "end game", especially modern design of it because it is just a bunch of people grinding raids for tokens then sitting on their *** in the public areas showing off their gear. I find that pretty ******** and pointless.

[Norfleet]

The entire "journey" aspect of the game was considered a "waste of time", "End Game" is where you were supposed to be and it was the only thing that mattered.

This is because developers have essentially created two separate, barely related games. There's the "endgame", which is what the vast majority of your players are playing. And then there's the "forced tutorial to the actual game", the stuff you're forced to do before you're even allowed to play the game you were likely recruited to play. Ask yourself: How many times does anything you do in the "tutorial phase" actually matter? Pretty much never, right? At best, it offers you the opportunity to **** your build and have to pay for a respec. Upon reaching the endgame, you discard all of your baby diapers and get to finally wear big boy pants. Nothing mattered or contributed in any way. You may look back with some weird nostalgia on the time when the gaming equivalent of fingerpainting with your own feces was the height of entertainment and amusement, but it really had nothing to do with the game you are now playing.

It creates a very weird experience where the developers are focusing their efforts on the 1% of players, while 99% of players thus ragequit. Not even making these numbers up. Some ****** dead MMO I played has achievement tracking statistics (admittedly for the filthy console peasants, but as much as I sneer at them, I can't really imagine the PC statistics differ that much), which showed, through achievement tracking for various milestones, one of which was "reach the endgame", that 99% of players have ragequit by the time the endgame is reached as only 1% of players have the "reached endgame" trophy, and this number only rises to about 5% if you discount the players that have the "beat the official tutorial" trophy (the tutorial itself was the largest hardfilter outright).

This is, of course, the fundamental mistake. The solution, of course, is the same as it is in the real world: Child labor. New players, like children, need to be encouraged to contribute to society. They should be doing things that are actually relevant to the game everyone is playing, toiling in the mines. The children yearn for the mines.

[rusty_shackleford]

Not a big fan of classless MMOs.

[rusty_shackleford]

I guess it could be fine if you still have a limited number of skill points or something similar, but something is lost when you can just max out everything. This is true even in single player RPGs tho.

[Xenich]

I guess it could be fine if you still have a limited number of skill points or something similar, but something is lost when you can just max out everything. This is true even in single player RPGs tho.

Yep, the development is a very important part I think. Even when we played pen and paper games, once the characters hit cap, we would do a few adventures... but then everyone wanted to start over again, new character to slowly develop and take through the progression again.

In MMOs, once you hit max... character development becomes raiding for gear to be able to do more difficult raid content to get more gear until you have completed all and have the best gear. Thing is, it really is the same thing as the journey to max, just less things to focus on in development, and instead of small grouping, it is going with a large group to raid targets. The entire "dungeon crawl" feel of play is gone, its just "meet for raid... collect shiny... wait till raid timer resets..." There is still "development", but it then becomes entirely "gear chasing", no levels, new spells, skill development, no world mystery areas to explore, etc...

As for the "its a tutorial", well... call it what you will, fine... but that is what I enjoy, the learning the class, watching it grow and seeing how to make it work in different ways as it develops with the obstacles of content. It is like working on some project, seeing it from nothing growing to its potential, it is a satisfying focus of play. EQ was a bit different at cap with AA points, there was still development in play, but with games like WoW, I didn't see the point. We would plow through the raid targets and at some point I was thinking, why do I care about getting one more gear item just to do the same thing I am doing already. My skills didn't change, my abilities didn't change, after I mastered my class, it became a mundane grind of repetition, a quest for tokens...

I guess I just enjoy the "zero to hero" process far more than I enjoy the "hero grind". That is the point though, completely different games and ones where they are completely at odds with each other in terms of what the player expects. The "end gamer" can't stand the "journey" and wants every cheat, aid, or gimmick to surpass it to get to the end game and all of those "QoL features" essentially kill the Journey game. They player types just aren't compatible.

[Kalarion]

The "rush to levelcap" phenomena is in large part because the level cap experience is often (sometimes assumed) to be more fun than the levelling experience. Would you rather be grinding mundane boars in the barrens by yourself, or in the grandiose 40 man raid fighting with friends against the huge spectacular Ragnaros? Or being level 50+ and participating in the huge grandiose weekend mothership wars in ACE Online? Etc.

I had this complaint about FF11 too. As fun as the levelling experience with friends is, the cool high fantasy art like larger monsters, cool monster designs, floating islands, spectacular looking bosses, etc, was backloaded at the end of a 500 hour long journey for me. The first 400 hours of grinding on small mundane crabs and bees and lizards in mundane environments like deserts or snowy plains was not as appealing.

Some MMOs like FF14 and GW2 avoid this, because the "endgame" experience is really not all that much different (if at all) than what you are experiencing from the get go or very early on. In FF14, there is nothing really different awaiting you at the current level cap of 100 after going through the entire 500+ hour long story. You can do 8 man raids and 24 man raids in fantastical environments with cool looking bosses as soon as you hit level 50, which only takes a maybe 20 or 30 hours going through ARR to reach. FF14 has a functional way of keeping old content relevant and populated with players with the roulette system, unlike WoW where you can't find anyone to do old content with at level. Likewise, in GW2 you don't need to rush and get "caught up" to start having just as spectacular experience.

I get the point, but I couldn't disagree more as far as games like Everquest and especially FF XI go. Everquest had massive, intricately-designed dungeons filled with fun and dangerous encounters for groups, especially for the first 3 expansions. Its problem was that all the best equipment was gated behind raids.

FF XI was a completely different ball of wax. Almost all gear, even the very top-end, was obtained from a mix of group play (coffers, hard dungeon NMs, hard spawned NMs) and crafting. There was zero reason to worry about raid experience except for the very tippy-top equipment. Even some of the raid-only equipment could be gotten on pickup raids, and the fact that raid currency was useful for all sorts of things and retained value, combined with individual (rather than group-based) lockout timers, meant there was enormous incentive to set them up (unlike for instance EQ or WoW where the incentive was to be part of a guild). Most storyline content was group-based, not raid-based. Group content even included big set-piece battles with huge monsters. We didn't get to it because of attrition, but the CoP missions were filled with spectacular fights like Bahamut. And even in vanilla and Zilart we had fights like the dark dragon, the Ark fighters, Kam'Ianaut and Eald'Narche!

By contrast, most of FF XI's heavy raid content was boring as ****. Constant whiffing on the four gods, kiting Kirin around in circles while melee stood doing nothing (Monks got to Chi Blast every three minutes, YIPPEE!), stuff like that. The dragon raids (Fafnir, Nidhogg, Tiamat) were pretty cool but also boring as fights.

Okay I'm done shilling FF XI.

[rusty_shackleford]

I can feel it tugging at me. The quiet noise in the back of my mind, the need to gather my party and venture forth...

[Norfleet]

Yep, the development is a very important part I think. Even when we played pen and paper games, once the characters hit cap, we would do a few adventures... but then everyone wanted to start over again, new character to slowly develop and take through the progression again.

Seems to me that becoming KIA in permanent death would solve that issue.

I guess I just enjoy the "zero to hero" process far more than I enjoy the "hero grind". That is the point though, completely different games and ones where they are completely at odds with each other in terms of what the player expects. The "end gamer" can't stand the "journey" and wants every cheat, aid, or gimmick to surpass it to get to the end game and all of those "QoL features" essentially kill the Journey game. They player types just aren't compatible.

See, I don't really enjoy any of these things. I play MMOs for what is best in life. What is best in life?

[Xenich]

The "rush to levelcap" phenomena is in large part because the level cap experience is often (sometimes assumed) to be more fun than the levelling experience. Would you rather be grinding mundane boars in the barrens by yourself, or in the grandiose 40 man raid fighting with friends against the huge spectacular Ragnaros? Or being level 50+ and participating in the huge grandiose weekend mothership wars in ACE Online? Etc.

I had this complaint about FF11 too. As fun as the levelling experience with friends is, the cool high fantasy art like larger monsters, cool monster designs, floating islands, spectacular looking bosses, etc, was backloaded at the end of a 500 hour long journey for me. The first 400 hours of grinding on small mundane crabs and bees and lizards in mundane environments like deserts or snowy plains was not as appealing.

Some MMOs like FF14 and GW2 avoid this, because the "endgame" experience is really not all that much different (if at all) than what you are experiencing from the get go or very early on. In FF14, there is nothing really different awaiting you at the current level cap of 100 after going through the entire 500+ hour long story. You can do 8 man raids and 24 man raids in fantastical environments with cool looking bosses as soon as you hit level 50, which only takes a maybe 20 or 30 hours going through ARR to reach. FF14 has a functional way of keeping old content relevant and populated with players with the roulette system, unlike WoW where you can't find anyone to do old content with at level. Likewise, in GW2 you don't need to rush and get "caught up" to start having just as spectacular experience.

I get the point, but I couldn't disagree more as far as games like Everquest and especially FF XI go. Everquest had massive, intricately-designed dungeons filled with fun and dangerous encounters for groups, especially for the first 3 expansions. Its problem was that all the best equipment was gated behind raids.

FF XI was a completely different ball of wax. Almost all gear, even the very top-end, was obtained from a mix of group play (coffers, hard dungeon NMs, hard spawned NMs) and crafting. There was zero reason to worry about raid experience except for the very tippy-top equipment. Even some of the raid-only equipment could be gotten on pickup raids, and the fact that raid currency was useful for all sorts of things and retained value, combined with individual (rather than group-based) lockout timers, meant there was enormous incentive to set them up (unlike for instance EQ or WoW where the incentive was to be part of a guild). Most storyline content was group-based, not raid-based. Group content even included big set-piece battles with huge monsters. We didn't get to it because of attrition, but the CoP missions were filled with spectacular fights like Bahamut. And even in vanilla and Zilart we had fights like the dark dragon, the Ark fighters, Kam'Ianaut and Eald'Narche!

By contrast, most of FF XI's heavy raid content was boring as ****. Constant whiffing on the four gods, kiting Kirin around in circles while melee stood doing nothing (Monks got to Chi Blast every three minutes, YIPPEE!), stuff like that. The dragon raids (Fafnir, Nidhogg, Tiamat) were pretty cool but also boring as fights.

Okay I'm done shilling FF XI.

Well, I never played FF XI really, so I a can't give a perspective in the difference, but from what you say, that does sound much better in the play. I just could never get into it, likely its JRPG look and roots just seemed too... non traditional to me.

As for EQ, sure... the "best" gear was all gated behind raids, and this became a problem when content for groups started to be designed around that progression through later expansions. When I look at EQ, when I talk about its design, I am primarily talking about the Verant days. SoL being the last expansion by Verant was still "group" oriented in many ways. Yes, it had a ton of raids, but... you could still do all the group content without raid gear. Once PoP hit, the gating began and zones were tuned for "raiders" to group in with most of the gear being hidden behind "group" mobs that were tuned for raid geared people. This got really bad as time went on and the game became "raid focused" and tuned for grouping for raiders.

The first three expansions were ideal, though EQ would have been better off putting more focus on grouping over raids even then. Brad realized this and that is why Pantheon was initially focused on being small group only. It may still to some extent, but I hear talk of "raiding" more and more... so who knows if they will hold to that.

Anyway, I dislike raids, they are a hassle and I think they eventually cause issues with the game. I think 2 group content should be the max, with some occasional large group content for guilds to work together on, but very limited. As I said, the best part of MMOs for me was the single group content and play. Slow leveling, the "journey" worked well with that. End content raiding seemed to push the "rush to max" play style and I think it did a lot of damage to traditional cRPG development play.

[Xenich]

Yep, the development is a very important part I think. Even when we played pen and paper games, once the characters hit cap, we would do a few adventures... but then everyone wanted to start over again, new character to slowly develop and take through the progression again.

Seems to me that becoming KIA in permanent death would solve that issue.

I guess I just enjoy the "zero to hero" process far more than I enjoy the "hero grind". That is the point though, completely different games and ones where they are completely at odds with each other in terms of what the player expects. The "end gamer" can't stand the "journey" and wants every cheat, aid, or gimmick to surpass it to get to the end game and all of those "QoL features" essentially kill the Journey game. They player types just aren't compatible.

See, I don't really enjoy any of these things. I play MMOs for what is best in life. What is best in life?

Perm death doesn't work well with long term game play really. It requires a different design or a type of player that doesn't mind spending a lot of time and effort, then having it completely lost. I don't care for PvP much in those types of games, and to be honest, that grind gets a bit old after a while. I think the last I truly was into PvP with serious play and dedication was the MUDing days, but then those games were designed around perm death PvP as progressing up was very quick once you learned the game.

Like I said, these are concepts "at odds" with each other, and completely different expectations in play. I don't have a problem with people liking those games, but some people just cant stand a game to have that traditional "journey" experience. Even with Pantheon being this niche game, with a clearly established goal, you still get tons of people coming in throwing tantrums and demanding the game be like all the other games that for some reason they are too bored with to play.

[Xenich]

I can feel it tugging at me. The quiet noise in the back of my mind, the need to gather my party and venture forth...

I am waiting for the wipe and combat/NPC revamp to really give it another go. It should greatly change the game and it should allow for more enjoyable experience in the grouping play. Not to mention, it will add all the other mastery skills for classes as well.

[Norfleet]

Perm death doesn't work well with long term game play really. It requires a different design or a type of player that doesn't mind spending a lot of time and effort, then having it completely lost.

I agree. You can't slap that design hamhandedly into a Warcraftesque, for certain. You have to design the game around it. But why is that a problem?

I think the last I truly was into PvP with serious play and dedication was the MUDing days, but then those games were designed around perm death PvP as progressing up was very quick once you learned the game.

Honestly, mostly the same, with the kind of PvP you're clearly talking about. Direct character-based PvP in a modern MMO is hollow, meaningless, poorly balanced, and largely irrelevant to the rest of the game.

Now, auction house PvP, on the other hand...

I don't have a problem with people liking those games, but some people just cant stand a game to have that traditional "journey" experience.

Well, the thing is, those games DO NOT EXIST ANYMORE.

Even with Pantheon being this niche game, with a clearly established goal, you still get tons of people coming in throwing tantrums and demanding the game be like all the other games that for some reason they are too bored with to play.

This is why you don't listen to refugees who want to make the new place just like the place they fled from, yes. Me, I took a brief glance over at what Pantheon was offering, namely, a pay-to-lose PvE-centric grindfest game, and immediately walked away. I'm not going to ask that it be changed to accomodate me. I'm just not going to play it. Pay-to-lose is a hard dealbreaker.