"2nd Person Video Game" tempest in a teapot

[DemoGraph]

Turns out, some time ago some indie dev spitted out something like: "We have 1st and 3rd person game, BUT HOW ABOUT 2nd person, huh, huh?" And it led to a small shitstorm discussion in the indie scene.
Ive listened to some of the vids in the background and this one turned out to be the most expressive.

Still, it's pretty tl;dr, so here's AI recap: https://youtubesummary.com/summary/LTaQnuQY9fY
Even that is tl;dr, so here's my recap.

The typical linguistic definitions are: first person = “I” (speaker), second person = “You” (listener), third person = “They” (outside observer).

It can't be translated directly into camera perspective definitions, because there're many fringe cases. Generally speaking, the, e.g., "third person camera" is a badly worded term (bird-eye strategic view is also third person, though we don't name it so).
Cameras in single-body runner-shooters could be renamed into POV camera, over-the-shoulder camera, etc.

But nobody would do it, because come on.
Case closed.

OR IS IT?

[rusty_shackleford]

2nd person video game is watching someone else play

[Stack of Turtles]

didn't someone do a 2nd person concept where you watch your character move through the eyes of NPCs? Feels like that was something that came up during the arty superhot trend chaser days.

[Valter]

Kinda imagining a "2nd person" video game where you take on the POV (but not control) of the nearest enemy and you have to move your character from that perspective. And if your character is not in view? Well maybe move around a bit see if the POV changes to another enemy, it might help you estimate your position by observing the landscape

[rusty_shackleford]

Kinda imagining a "2nd person" video game where you take on the POV (but not control) of the nearest enemy and you have to move your character from that perspective. And if your character is not in view? Well maybe move around a bit see if the POV changes to another enemy, it might help you estimate your position by observing the landscape

There's some jap horror game series that does this, can't remember the name

[SpellSword]

Kinda imagining a "2nd person" video game where you take on the POV (but not control) of the nearest enemy and you have to move your character from that perspective. And if your character is not in view? Well maybe move around a bit see if the POV changes to another enemy, it might help you estimate your position by observing the landscape

There's some jap horror game series that does this, can't remember the name

Siren?

[asf]

this thread is extremely autistic

[aimlesshealer]

I agree that perspective in a game is not equivalent to the camera angle. Maybe it's better defined as which character the game is experienced through (or not at all).

Simply playing the game and being immersed is 1st person. When the player himself is acknowledged in the gameplay/story as an agent, even vaguely, it starts to become 2nd person. Whereas in 3rd person, the character is his own guy, and the vantage point and control of the player is simply an incidental vehicle of gameplay and story. 1st and 2nd person perspective exist within the bounds of the narrative/world, while 3rd person is merely a device. But the lines are blurry, probably because these are writing terms being grafted onto gaming.

The degree to which the player identifies with the player character seems like the biggest factor. Any time the player is dissociated from the PC, 1st person becomes 2nd person. This can vary throughout the course of the game, and the game designer can intentionally evoke it. You can even do it yourself if you like to blame your character for mistakes like I do. (Wasn't my fault; I pushed the button!) If the PC thinks, does, or knows something the player doesn't, that strengthens the divide and shifts the balance toward 2nd person. A good example of this is found in MOTHER 3, where at the climax of the game, you're given a choice to pull the final needle and end the world. If you say no, the game simply says, "Lucas pulled the needle anyway." Lucas does it even if you, the player, don't want to. Throughout the story the character you control changes, and you often see "your" character speaking and acting through the eyes of another as the perspective shifts around, though they never do so while under your control. The game also continues the series' tradition of directly asking the player his name, which clearly establishes a split between the player and the PC. So this character's sudden autonomy doesn't come across as a cheap gimmick but rather a natural part of the story.

I'd count games that don't give you direct control as having 2nd person perspective as well, such as Dwarf Fortress, where you can't actually make your dwarves do anything and are limited to asking nicely if they'd please stop looking for new socks and pull the lever already because the goblins are at the gate. On the contrary, the more direct control you can assume, the more responsive the character is to your will, the more the distinction between you dissolves.

Referencing the player is the most obvious way to accomplish 2nd person in a game, but I don't think it's the only way. For example, say your only window into the narrative and world at large is a bossy AI who tells you what to do and why it matters. When your actions and their significance are primarily contextualized through another character's viewpoint, that could also be considered 2nd person.

To summarize, ultimately you are the one who must experience the game. The question is where you are: inside the character, inside the story, or in your chair.

Seven. Seven edits is the number of completion.

[J1M]

Turns out, some time ago some indie dev spitted out something like: "We have 1st and 3rd person game, BUT HOW ABOUT 2nd person, huh, huh?" And it led to a small shitstorm discussion in the indie scene.
Ive listened to some of the vids in the background and this one turned out to be the most expressive.

Still, it's pretty tl;dr, so here's AI recap: https://youtubesummary.com/summary/LTaQnuQY9fY
Even that is tl;dr, so here's my recap.

The typical linguistic definitions are: first person = “I” (speaker), second person = “You” (listener), third person = “They” (outside observer).

It can't be translated directly into camera perspective definitions, because there're many fringe cases. Generally speaking, the, e.g., "third person camera" is a badly worded term (bird-eye strategic view is also third person, though we don't name it so).
Cameras in single-body runner-shooters could be renamed into POV camera, over-the-shoulder camera, etc.

But nobody would do it, because come on.
Case closed.

OR IS IT?

Cool thread. Doesn't make any sense to apply linguistics to this though when it is about camera style.

I'll put forward that a second person camera style would be a game played by watching the protagonist from a series of security monitors. Substantially similar to an old Resident Evil game, but with in-world justification of some kind for the camera placement. This is distinct from 3rd person, but not some kind of completely alien concept.

The obvious game to make in this style would be the operator/hacker supporting a spy or special forces character like you'd see in Mission Impossible movies. There's room to explore adversarial or unknowing control of the character on the monitor as well. But that would likely be more niche.

[DDC]

The only "second-person" games are those that break the fourth wall and address the player directly, and visual novels written in second person.

The convoluted ways of using camera angles to make a "second person" game described in this thread are all just different types of third person games.

The distinction between first and second person is narrative and cannot be distilled to a camera angle.

[DecadeRiptide]

Second person games is when the camera is half in half out of the character so you can see the back of the eyeballs

[Norfleet]

Kinda imagining a "2nd person" video game where you take on the POV (but not control) of the nearest enemy and you have to move your character from that perspective. And if your character is not in view? Well maybe move around a bit see if the POV changes to another enemy, it might help you estimate your position by observing the landscape

Imagine Thief as a Second Person vidya game, where instead of playing from the perspective of Garrett, or from an over the shoulder camera, you control Garrett from the perspective of the security guard watching him on the camera monitors.

[DemoGraph]

you control Garrett from the perspective of his mechanical eye

FTFY