Why don't games (and fiction in general) let the protagonist be hated by the enemy nations?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

(was going to post this in the anti-soul thread)

Not quite a removal since it was never fully implemented, but I thought it was neat how at the end of the death knight intro, you arrive in the city and the people are orange names to you, calling you murderer and throwing food at you as you rush to the king/warchief to plea for a pardon. Sadly that ends after the quest and nothing like it ever happens again.

Fantasy games (and often, fantasy fiction in general) has an issue where the protagonist becomes a prolific war hero and/or kills many, many people who had friends, family, neighbors, countrymen, etc. But the narratives almost always shy away from showing the consequences of the protagonists' actions and showing how he is hated. You wipe out armies or conquer regions and then the masses don't hate you on a mass scale, what you did mind as well have never happened.

• I gassed Gilneas and incerinated most of the Night Elf race in Teldrassil, but then I am walking around Bel'ameth and Gilneas clicking on night elf or human NPCs and getting friendly greetings, and Malfurion is calling me his friend even though I betrayed him after working with him in Hyjal and Val'sharah, almost got his back broken with an axe in the back, and murdered most of his subjects.
• I must've killed lots of brothers/husbands/sons of the people in Skyrim during the civil war, and yet everywhere I walk everybody greets me and nobody boos me or tries to poison my drink.
• I killed thousand of Garleans and conscripted provincial soldiers but then walk around Garlemald and the provinces no problem.
• Rean Schwarzer conquered Crossbell but walks around it and people hand him apples.
• In SRPGs like Fire Emblem, Aselia, Utawarerumono, etc, I killed tens of thousands to take over the country/world, and then we divide the land amongst our party member and apparently lived happily ever after ruling over people I orphaned and impoverished no problem.
• I betrayed and conquered my own country in Suikoden and none of my countrymen hate me.
• Etc.

Games might show scenes of hate between peoples, but rarely hate directed towards the protagonist on a mass scale.




The only game I have seen that even alludes to this is in the bad ending of Tactics Ogre when you get assassinated at your coronation.




(I think Yoko Taro might have talked about this when designing the protagonist for Drakengard, about how RPG protagonists who kill hundreds of people would have to be screwed up, but I haven't played that game)

Do you think this stems from a business motivation to not ruin the player's power fantasy of being beloved by all, or do you think that the creators dislike the idea that they can have incurred the animosity of other people?

[asf]

so the enemy nations need to hate the anime weirdo or something

[rusty_shackleford]

Aren't you just describing what faction mechanics attempt to model?

[Tangerine]

Aren't you just describing what faction mechanics attempt to model?

JRPGs don't have faction mechanics.

[Irenaeus]

Aren't you just describing what faction mechanics attempt to model?

JRPGs don't have faction mechanics.

Oh, that might explain the OP, which I was having trouble with as I don't recognize anything other than Ogre Tactics which I neverplayed.
I remember most games I played, RPGs or tactical games with RPG mechanics like Battle Brothers, allow the protagonists to be hated by enemy nations. For example, in Pillars of Eternity you can kill the savages (Glanfanth or something?) and they will hate you. In fairness, they already hate you when the game starts (they are savages).

[UltraFan123]

I do think it's strange that JRPGs always shy away from this, since Western RPGs have no shortage of enmity between opposing sides a conflict, like the famous "Alliance vs Horde" from classic World of Warcraft.

[DemoGraph]

Because self-inserts are everywhere and it's icky to rustle their jimmies.
https://youtubesummary.com/summary/x3NPxraALq0

Nuked and pacifistic japs were just the first in a row.

[weaselus]

This new whale-oriented media is about appeasing people who are gravely socially maladjusted. (Even if society has mostly failed its obligations to all and sundry.)

The intended audience has no expectations of realism due to lack of contact with reality. Japanese roaches will gleefully abuse these mentally ill individuals' desire to experience the feelings of success. The whole Isekai genre could not have been conceived in a white country-hold up, what about Twilight and Fifty Shades of Gray?

Contrast that with Japanese games from the late eighties and early nineties: the pandering is mostly erotic, whereas the conflicts and outcomes are scathingly realistic. These were products for salarymen, not neets.

Possibly the consumers of these games/books/tv shows are already hurt by real society and do not want to experience more insults in game, however deserved?

[Norfleet]

• I gassed Gilneas and incerinated most of the Night Elf race in Teldrassil, but then I am walking around Bel'ameth and Gilneas clicking on night elf or human NPCs and getting friendly greetings, and Malfurion is calling me his friend even though I betrayed him after working with him in Hyjal and Val'sharah, almost got his back broken with an axe in the back, and murdered most of his subjects.

MMO Theme Park Time Stasis. Older characters in older zones rarely, if ever, react to new events, instead being locked in time to the era they spawned, so as to avoid softlocking players out of the content. You're not inhabiting a living world, you're in a Disney theme park. That's why every single player gets to do these things.

[*]In SRPGs like Fire Emblem, Aselia, Utawarerumono, etc, I killed tens of thousands to take over the country/world, and then we divide the land amongst our party member and apparently lived happily ever after ruling over people I orphaned and impoverished no problem.

Honestly, if that's ALL the people you killed, killing only 10K in the process on conquering the place is a very low body count.

(I think Yoko Taro might have talked about this when designing the protagonist for Drakengard, about how RPG protagonists who kill hundreds of people would have to be screwed up, but I haven't played that game)

You're already screwed up. You're a murderhobo adventureman. Nothing about this career track suggests being mentally normal.

[Stack of Turtles]

The whole Isekai genre could not have been conceived in a white country-hold up, what about Twilight and Fifty Shades of Gray?

The first definite example of an isekai novel I know about was written in Greek in the 2nd century AD.

[weaselus]

The whole Isekai genre could not have been conceived in a white country-hold up, what about Twilight and Fifty Shades of Gray?

The first definite example of an isekai novel I know about was written in Greek in the 2nd century AD.

Sorry you missed the forest for the trees. How could I forget Gulliver's Travels? This was some awesome Ionian Isekai.

[Irenaeus]

The whole Isekai genre could not have been conceived in a white country-hold up, what about Twilight and Fifty Shades of Gray?

The first definite example of an isekai novel I know about was written in Greek in the 2nd century AD.

Sorry you missed the forest for the trees. How could I forget Gulliver's Travels? This was some awesome Ionian Isekai.

Gulliver's Travels is a great book (in which the protagonist is often hated by enemy nations - including the ******* talking horses).

[Tangerine]

The whole Isekai genre could not have been conceived in a white country-hold up, what about Twilight and Fifty Shades of Gray?

The first definite example of an isekai novel I know about was written in Greek in the 2nd century AD.

Sorry you missed the forest for the trees. How could I forget Gulliver's Travels? This was some awesome Ionian Isekai.

My favorite Isekai are the famously Japanese A Connecticut Yankee In King Arthur's Court, John Carter of Mars, and Lest Darkness Falls.

It seems you didn't learn humility or gain wisdom in your sabbatical.

[Orvas Dren]

(was going to post this in the anti-soul thread)

Not quite a removal since it was never fully implemented, but I thought it was neat how at the end of the death knight intro, you arrive in the city and the people are orange names to you, calling you murderer and throwing food at you as you rush to the king/warchief to plea for a pardon. Sadly that ends after the quest and nothing like it ever happens again.

Fantasy games (and often, fantasy fiction in general) has an issue where the protagonist becomes a prolific war hero and/or kills many, many people who had friends, family, neighbors, countrymen, etc. But the narratives almost always shy away from showing the consequences of the protagonists' actions and showing how he is hated. You wipe out armies or conquer regions and then the masses don't hate you on a mass scale, what you did mind as well have never happened.

• I gassed Gilneas and incerinated most of the Night Elf race in Teldrassil, but then I am walking around Bel'ameth and Gilneas clicking on night elf or human NPCs and getting friendly greetings, and Malfurion is calling me his friend even though I betrayed him after working with him in Hyjal and Val'sharah, almost got his back broken with an axe in the back, and murdered most of his subjects.
• I must've killed lots of brothers/husbands/sons of the people in Skyrim during the civil war, and yet everywhere I walk everybody greets me and nobody boos me or tries to poison my drink.
• I killed thousand of Garleans and conscripted provincial soldiers but then walk around Garlemald and the provinces no problem.
• Rean Schwarzer conquered Crossbell but walks around it and people hand him apples.
• In SRPGs like Fire Emblem, Aselia, Utawarerumono, etc, I killed tens of thousands to take over the country/world, and then we divide the land amongst our party member and apparently lived happily ever after ruling over people I orphaned and impoverished no problem.
• I betrayed and conquered my own country in Suikoden and none of my countrymen hate me.
• Etc.

Games might show scenes of hate between peoples, but rarely hate directed towards the protagonist on a mass scale.




The only game I have seen that even alludes to this is in the bad ending of Tactics Ogre when you get assassinated at your coronation.




(I think Yoko Taro might have talked about this when designing the protagonist for Drakengard, about how RPG protagonists who kill hundreds of people would have to be screwed up, but I haven't played that game)

Do you think this stems from a business motivation to not ruin the player's power fantasy of being beloved by all, or do you think that the creators dislike the idea that they can have incurred the animosity of other people?

you really gotta take a break from jap brain disease bro

[weaselus]

you really gotta take a break from jap brain disease bro

Many Japanese games are vastly superior to many western games. For better or worse, Japan and the USA are the two most prolific sources of traditional video games.

The thrust of this thread is, "why is the brain disease spreading" and the consensus is Japanese (and now Chinese and Korean) businesses target the wallets of the mentally ill, the gambler, the addicted, whose numbers have increased dramatically due to disruptive technologies and worldwide corruption.

Despite efforts to derail the argument that Isekai anime is, as a whole, seriously unhealthy, it is evident Japanese game studios/publishing houses are pivoting toward bland degeneracy, together with the Chinese and the Koreans. More than 90% of "gaming" by revenue is either gacha or other gambling.

Val is highlighting this problem while you tell us you like western games better. Thanks for the input I guess?

[TheEmptyRoad]

I remember in Mass Effect 2 if you sacrificed the Council in the first game (right choice btw, useless ******* bureaucrats) then many NPC’s on the Citadel are far more hostile to Shepard than they would be if you’d saved them.

[rusty_shackleford]

I remember in Mass Effect 2 if you sacrificed the Council in the first game (right choice btw, useless ******* bureaucrats) then many NPC’s on the Citadel are far more hostile to Shepard than they would be if you’d saved them.

They don't let you commit to it nearly anywhere near as much as you should be able to.
The only other species worth their weight are the turians.

[rusty_shackleford]

Once again insisting people play the RPGHQ RPGOTY 2023


I suspect I could actually convince @Val the Moofia Boss to play it, since most seem to be put off by its grafx which may be a bonus for him
(Yes, it does have intricate faction mechanics)