Do you consider Witcher 3 to be an RPG?

[Oyster Sauce]

Ciri is ******* awful

[rusty_shackleford]

Ciri is ******* awful

Ciri is ******* awful

They're making an entire game about playing as her but old

[Oyster Sauce]

Lmao she's using the iconic Marvel Shrieking Woman ability

[WhiteShark]

I have a feeling we've discussed this before, but I think the underlying question is this: are Action "RPGs" a subgenre of RPGs or a separate genre with some similarities? I'm with @Xenich and @Old One that an action game, i.e. a game in which the player's dexterity is the primary factor in combat, is intrinsically something other than an RPG, a game in which the physical ability of a character is separate from that of the player. Since the Action RPG violates this division, it cannot be an RPG proper; hence, it is a hybrid genre. (LARPs are also not RPGs.)

[rusty_shackleford]

I have a feeling we've discussed this before, but I think the underlying question is this: are Action "RPGs" a subgenre of RPGs or a separate genre with some similarities? I'm with @Xenich and @Old One that an action game, i.e. a game in which the player's dexterity is the primary factor in combat, is intrinsically something other than an RPG, a game in which the physical ability of a character is separate from that of the player. Since the Action RPG violates this division, it cannot be an RPG proper; hence, it is a hybrid genre. (LARPs are also not RPGs.)

The purest form of RPG is Ultima Underworld and the games that derive from it, so, yes.

[Oyster Sauce]

The audacity of these ******* P*lish ******* to continually take away my character who I've invested time and money and skill points and gear and haircuts into to force me to play as an annoying ***** who drags down every scene she's in

[Faceless_Sentinel]

I have a feeling we've discussed this before, but I think the underlying question is this: are Action "RPGs" a subgenre of RPGs or a separate genre with some similarities? I'm with @Xenich and @Old One that an action game, i.e. a game in which the player's dexterity is the primary factor in combat, is intrinsically something other than an RPG, a game in which the physical ability of a character is separate from that of the player. Since the Action RPG violates this division, it cannot be an RPG proper; hence, it is a hybrid genre. (LARPs are also not RPGs.)

The purest form of RPG is Ultima Underworld and the games that derive from it, so, yes.

But combat in Ultimata Underworld is real time, which means player's dexterity is the primary factor, so it can't be purest form of RPG. Then the only RPG left is Ultima 4.

[gerey]

Since the Action RPG violates this division, it cannot be an RPG proper; hence, it is a hybrid genre. (LARPs are also not RPGs.)

Here's a question I have - in IE games, and their various spiritual successors, an encounter can be trivialized by channeling the **** clicker mentality, allowing you to kite and manipulate enemies if you can achieve a high enough APM.

Does something like that violate the division?

[TKVNC]

Since the Action RPG violates this division, it cannot be an RPG proper; hence, it is a hybrid genre. (LARPs are also not RPGs.)

Here's a question I have - in IE games, and their various spiritual successors, an encounter can be trivialized by channeling the **** clicker mentality, allowing you to kite and manipulate enemies if you can achieve a high enough APM.

Does something like that violate the division?

Well, that would be exploiting a mechanic, not an encounter. So it just makes you a cheater. Like using loaded dice in a TTRPG.

[gerey]

Well, that would be exploiting a mechanic, not an encounter.

But the principle is the same, I am using my own motor skills and reflexes to win the encounter, instead of relying on my character's stats.

[TKVNC]

Well, that would be exploiting a mechanic, not an encounter.

But the principle is the same, I am using my own motor skills and reflexes to win the encounter, instead of relying on my character's stats.

True, but you're exploiting an AI's inability to react creatively. Which is effectively cheating.

Don't get me wrong, it's unavoidable for now since game AI is generally more ******** than the average black at the moment.

[rusty_shackleford]

The idea that there's a division is ridiculous unless you plan on larping as an idiot when doing combat in turn based

[rusty_shackleford]

For some of you it isn't larping

[Xenich]

Well, that would be exploiting a mechanic, not an encounter.

But the principle is the same, I am using my own motor skills and reflexes to win the encounter, instead of relying on my character's stats.

I am not exactly sure what you mean, but this I would consider a problem with the implementation of RTWP and an unintended result. If the game were played turn by turn, could you still achieve this exploit? If the answer is yes, it is operating within the rule system, if no... then I would say it is an action system implementation that is causing issues.

I don't think this is the same with action games that simply layer on RPG features that have limited constraints in play.

[nullSector]

The audacity of these ******* P*lish ******* to continually take away my character who I've invested time and money and skill points and gear and haircuts into to force me to play as an annoying ***** who drags down every scene she's in

Dropped wither 3 due to precisely this, the game banks a LOT on you being really engaged into ciri and that narrative, I found it quite annoying. (also curse CDPR for making me play as a womyn)

[TKVNC]

The idea that there's a division is ridiculous unless you plan on larping as an idiot when doing combat in turn based

Well suppose someone is utterly ******** and can't even block attacks or time them in real-time combat. They are theoretically banned from RPing as a warrior, or skilled fighter.

This is not generally true for turn-based combat.

So I half see the argument. The problem is however when AI is fine in turn-based, but when faced with real-time, and human logic or reasoning, becomes mentally ********.

[rusty_shackleford]

The idea that there's a division is ridiculous unless you plan on larping as an idiot when doing combat in turn based

Well suppose someone is utterly ******** and can't even block attacks or time them in real-time combat. They are theoretically banned from RPing as a warrior, or skilled fighter.

This is not generally true for turn-based combat.

So I half see the argument. The problem is however when AI is fine in turn-based, but when faced with real-time, and human logic or reasoning, becomes mentally ********.

People who are dumb are handicapped in turn based

[TKVNC]

The idea that there's a division is ridiculous unless you plan on larping as an idiot when doing combat in turn based

Well suppose someone is utterly ******** and can't even block attacks or time them in real-time combat. They are theoretically banned from RPing as a warrior, or skilled fighter.

This is not generally true for turn-based combat.

So I half see the argument. The problem is however when AI is fine in turn-based, but when faced with real-time, and human logic or reasoning, becomes mentally ********.

People who are dumb are handicapped in turn based

True, but let's say for example... they have no arms and severe seizures, but might otherwise have 300 IQ. They obviously will not be able to interface with real-time.

So I suppose it becomes a player issue, and thus not technically a RPG.

[Xenich]

In a basic RPG the player can only leverage constant against a variable to effect an outcome.

In an Action RPG, the player can leverage a constant AND a variable (ie player action) against a variable to effect an outcome.

There are mixes of both, but the action RPG creates an issue where the physical action variable is player independent which can depending on system overpower constant/variable constraints.

That is, what may cause a player to "fail" in a basic RPG may be overcome with the physical action variable in an Action RPG.

I think the division is on those points and this would I think create issues with even some games we would define as traditional RPGs (infinity engine, Ultima Underworld, etc...), though... it also depends on how they are implemented.

Does Ultima Underworld do a to-hit roll when the player swings and physically hits the target in addition to requiring the player to be within range to actually physically hit the sprite? If not, then action as a variable drives combat while the statistics are used for other calculations after the hit.

[rusty_shackleford]

Cope from people with the reflexes of a fat kid

[Xenich]

Cope from people with the reflexes of a fat kid

huh-what.gif

[Faceless_Sentinel]

Cope from people with the reflexes of a fat kid

[Tangerine]

Well, that would be exploiting a mechanic, not an encounter.

But the principle is the same, I am using my own motor skills and reflexes to win the encounter, instead of relying on my character's stats.

True, but you're exploiting an AI's inability to react creatively. Which is effectively cheating.

Don't get me wrong, it's unavoidable for now since game AI is generally more ******** than the average black at the moment.

I'm disagreeing with the notion that game AI is more ******** than blacks, not disagreeing because I think it's good.

[sheet]

Video game genre is a spectrum that evolves from Adventure to 4X strategy with everything else between them. It factors into how I organize my games list.

[rusty_shackleford]

I'll do a bigger writeup later but it's important to differentiate things that were necessary abstraction for play at tabletop vs things that define an rpg. E.g., dice are used as randomizers to abstract complex simulations, not because RPGs are about rolling dice!

[rusty_shackleford]

I'll do a bigger writeup later but it's important to differentiate things that were necessary abstraction for play at tabletop vs things that define an rpg. E.g., dice are used as randomizers to abstract complex simulations, not because RPGs are about rolling dice!

Paul Neurath & to a lesser degree Warren Spector have a lot of really good essays on this topic if you want to go digging. The latter I consider to be the far lesser figure that got a lot of undue credit that should go to Neurath, especially if you dig into the UU development process and see Spector was not all that involved.

Neurath was also coincidentally the creative director for Shadows of Undrentide, which is the singular product that managed to redeem Neverwinter Nights and created my Good Samaritan Test.

[NotAI]

People say quantum mechanics is proof of the multiverse.

I say quantum mechanics is proof we live in some kind of video game.

It might just be a collection of bugs nobody has community patched yet. Let me write a book about it.

[NotAI]

I'll do a bigger writeup later but it's important to differentiate things that were necessary abstraction for play at tabletop vs things that define an rpg. E.g., dice are used as randomizers to abstract complex simulations, not because RPGs are about rolling dice!

Paul Neurath & to a lesser degree Warren Spector have a lot of really good essays on this topic if you want to go digging. The latter I consider to be the far lesser figure that got a lot of undue credit that should go to Neurath, especially if you dig into the UU development process and see Spector was not all that involved.

Neurath was also coincidentally the creative director for Shadows of Undrentide, which is the singular product that managed to redeem Neverwinter Nights and created my Good Samaritan Test.

I don't think I saw Neurath's essays on the subject. I want to read them

[Xenich]

I'll do a bigger writeup later but it's important to differentiate things that were necessary abstraction for play at tabletop vs things that define an rpg. E.g., dice are used as randomizers to abstract complex simulations, not because RPGs are about rolling dice!

That wasn't the point I was making though.

RNG, or dice is just a means to test success/failure for a character action (it doesn't have to be dice, you could use a spread sheet of constants to which character development constants are checked against for action success as an example). The point is that the character is constrained to its own progression of development, not arbitrary player reflex conditions which is the base function of an action game.

The issue becomes when the action component allows the player to bypass the development constraints which many action/RPG hybrids do.

You take a game like dark souls where character development is an aide, not a constraint and a level 1 player, with no armor, no development can beat the encounters and you see that the character development is just arbitrary, not a required component of play. Dark souls in its very basic design is an arcade game.

Even games like Gothic and Risen share some aspects of this ability to bypass development constraints by being able to time action movements in a way that allows the player to beat encounters designed for more developed characters contrary to the concept of a character developing in strength/ability which is supposed to give them the means to overcome encounters that would be otherwise impossible to these tests.

In tightly controlled systems (turn based), the player can not escape the development constraints through action reflex behavior and must have that development usually... there are some outliers, but most in those situations I would call them more bugs in the games design (BG3 NPC logic acting stupid allowing the player to use various obstacles/elevation to confuse the games logic).

My "division" is my own assessment though, not some standard of how it was intended that I am arguing. I merely see a clean line of division between the measuring point (ie character) being tested to the conditions in the world. How that is resolved be it through static tables, random rolls, etc... is not important, only that the development constraints be the deciding factor, not the players reflex.

I think this is the evolution from war games to story progression that D&D was focused on, bridging the board/strategy game into a more "natural" format where actions, combat, and story progression could play out at a micro level. The base concepts of conflict resolution are similar to the war game, but the format and execution is changed.

The issue becomes when you compare the difference between a strategy game and that of an RPG and that has been a discussion in the past to which I do admit I falter on some.

That said, I think the line between action and RPG are quite clear in that action only constrains the player to their own skill level which I think conflicts with traditional mechanics of character development. I have always considered RPGs to be more intellectual solution games based on logic trees rather than reflex ones.

[Oyster Sauce]

Ciri is ******* awful

My will to play the game is nearly completely drained. I tab out every few minutes now. It's been made exhausting by this one dogshit character.