Alternative EXP Sources

[WhiteShark]

Sources of which I'm aware in published games:

1. gold
2. winning combat
3. 'overcoming challenges'
4. 'completing quests'
5. 'good roleplaying'
6. GM fiat
7. attendance
8. Some mix of the above

I feel that all of these but gold are flawed to one degree or another.

Winning combat is generally straightforward as a source, but there can be questions like: if one of the monsters fled halfway through the battle, does he count for EXP or not? Probably, but what if he was actually just running to get reinforcements but the battle ended before they arrived? A little bit subjective. More importantly, it's boring as an incentive. We know from cRPGs that it promotes scouring the map for EXP. Dull.

'Overcoming challenges' sounds good in theory, but is more subjective. Does the party get EXP for accidentally avoiding a trap of which they were never aware? What if they avoid a room because they think there's a dragon in there and they happen to be right? If that counts, does it count again if they pass by his room again with successful stealth checks to keep him from waking? What if they leave the dungeon, come back, and sneak by again? And so on.

'Completing quests' faces similar interpretive difficulties. Sometimes it's straightforward, but at other times it can be hard to say what constitutes a discrete 'quest'. What if the party decides to resolve something differently from the way the questgiver desired? What if the party thinks they've resolved it and moves on, but it actually isn't? What if the questgiver is a traitor and the whole thing is a trap? What if the party undertakes some grand endeavor without prompting? Can they make their own quests? etc.

'Good roleplaying' means different things to different people. If a fighter grimly does his job on the front line without saying more than five words the whole session, did he roleplay well? I'd say so, but the thespian crowd probably wouldn't. This is very likely to end up rewarding playacting over roleplaying.

GM fiat is pure subjectivity. Rewards currying favor with GM above all.

Attendance... well, it's objective, and it incentivizes showing up. I guess that's worth something. Not flawed per se, but certainly insufficient as a sole source of EXP, for it doesn't incentivize any particular in-game behavior.

Gold is the gold standard. It's objective, it incentivizes interesting gameplay, and it creates the core loop of older D&D and its descendants. The problem is that it doesn't work for all genres. It wouldn't make any sense to award EXP for gold (or any other sort of currency) in, say, a supers game. Thus, my question:

What other sources of EXP can work well for RPGs?
In particular, I'm looking for sources that are objective and that incentivize fun gameplay.

[WhiteShark]

I don't feel like editing the OP, but I just remembered that Runequest has a system in which enough successful uses of the same skill improves it, and I think Powered by the Apocalypse games grant EXP or whatever they call it on failed skillchecks. I don't like either. Both incentivize suboptimal gameplay: either the player wants to spam one skill to get more success checkboxes marked, or the player wants to spam whatever he's worst at to accrue more failure EXP.

[Tadeusz]

'Completing quests' faces similar interpretive difficulties.

Tabletop RPGs are usually structured in modules and adventures so they may count as a milestone after which the experience can be awarded depending on how successful were the players (some objective measures may be thought out beforehand).

What other sources of EXP can work well for RPGs?

Some systems allow to increase skills after failing a check with them so this also can be used to give EXP.

[Acrux]

Time.

I was in a group once that had everyone increase a level every 6 months. (You couldn't be in combat when this happened.) This worked for the group because it had very strict attendance requirements, so not showing for weeks at a time and still being "rewarded" wasn't an option.

As an objective measure, it's hard to beat.

In-game behavior was rewarded in other ways, such as hero points.

[WhiteShark]

Tabletop RPGs are usually structured in modules and adventures so they may count as a milestone after which the experience can be awarded depending on how successful were the players (some objective measures may be thought out beforehand).

I don't know about the scene overall, but my personal experience has been that most GMs write their own material, and it's not necessarily structured into discrete adventures. But yeah, I suppose that in a system that assumes a more scripted sort of game, milestones make more sense. It probably works in Japanese RPGs, which are generally centered around short, self-contained scenarios and a very structured sort of play. It's essentially genre convention that everybody will stay on the rails the whole time.

[Stack of Turtles]

I don't feel like editing the OP, but I just remembered that Runequest has a system in which enough successful uses of the same skill improves it, and I think Powered by the Apocalypse games grant EXP or whatever they call it on failed skillchecks. I don't like either. Both incentivize suboptimal gameplay: either the player wants to spam one skill to get more success checkboxes marked, or the player wants to spam whatever he's worst at to accrue more failure EXP.

I not infrequently find that you expect players to do things that I have never (and wouldn't want to have) played with a player who would do. I suppose this makes sense in light of what you said in the other thread about being familiar with /tg/ 'people'.

I think learn-by-doing is the only simulationist option (with the understanding that this can include possibly paying for training and whatever else may arise), but if someone goes full manhwaslop "I punch the goblin one million times until I ascend to the dao of punching", then this seems like something that must be resolved out of game.

[WhiteShark]

I not infrequently find that you expect players to do things that I have never (and wouldn't want to have) played with a player who would do. I suppose this makes sense in light of what you said in the other thread about being familiar with /tg/ 'people'.

I think learn-by-doing is the only simulationist option (with the understanding that this can include possibly paying for training and whatever else may arise), but if someone goes full manhwaslop "I punch the goblin one million times until I ascend to the dao of punching", then this seems like something that must be resolved out of game.

In this case, it's not that I think most players actually would do that, but it is the incentivized behavior, and if the game mechanics are incentivizing dumb behavior, then they should be revised. (Also, I'm not sure it really is the most simulationist option if punching a goblin a million times is the theoretically optimal play for character advancement.) You did just remind me, though, that GURPS has rules for training that can effectively be used to replace EXP rewards, so I guess that's another source: downtime training.

[Norfleet]

Winning combat is generally straightforward as a source, but there can be questions like: if one of the monsters fled halfway through the battle, does he count for EXP or not? Probably, but what if he was actually just running to get reinforcements but the battle ended before they arrived? A little bit subjective. More importantly, it's boring as an incentive. We know from cRPGs that it promotes scouring the map for EXP. Dull.

Well, by the typical ruleset in D&D, it is sufficient to defeat your enemies. Whether you kill them or not doesn't grant you additional XP for it. If he was routed from the field, then he qualifies as defeated.

Even if he wasn't, by killing him before he can fetch the reinforcements (and thus claiming the extra XP from defeating him), you've still shortchanged yourself out of additional XP from killing the reinforcements that will now not arrive.

The bigger issue is, obviously, that this incentivizes "combat wombat" behaviors. Like the above.

'Overcoming challenges' sounds good in theory, but is more subjective. Does the party get EXP for accidentally avoiding a trap of which they were never aware? What if they avoid a room because they think there's a dragon in there and they happen to be right? If that counts, does it count again if they pass by his room again with successful stealth checks to keep him from waking? What if they leave the dungeon, come back, and sneak by again? And so on.

I think that this point you basically just assign an XP package to completing the mission objective, and how the players go about completing the objective is no longer important. If you're awarding "overcoming challenges" XP at an extremely granular timescale, where the player can thus end up encountering and "overcoming" the same challenge over and over by not actually overcoming it, you're allowing them to multi-dip on the same challenge. It's obviously absurd to be giving someone the XP for overcoming a landmine over and over just because he keeps walking over it.

'Completing quests' faces similar interpretive difficulties. Sometimes it's straightforward, but at other times it can be hard to say what constitutes a discrete 'quest'. What if the party decides to resolve something differently from the way the questgiver desired?

As long as it's resolved, the quest hits a completed state and you can then tally up the worth of the quest as per the above "overcoming challenges" rule. After all, that's how you determined the value of the quest in the first place, right?

What if the party thinks they've resolved it and moves on, but it actually isn't?

They still resolved that particular set of objectives, so that subquest gets concluded. If the players have not resolved the quest to a state you consider satisfactory, then their quest map and compass is still pointing to there and they have to wander around the yellow circle in confusion trying to figure out what you want them to do, and they don't get their reward until they do. Simple.

What if the questgiver is a traitor and the whole thing is a trap?

Doesn't matter, that's still a quest completion as it progresses the plot and moves to the next quest.

What if the party undertakes some grand endeavor without prompting? Can they make their own quests? etc.

That's what we call a "Discovered Quest", yes. That's one of the benefits of Tabletop over CRPG, that if the players do something unprompted, you can just assume that have now accepted a quest that generate for them on the fly. Not every quest requires the player to first accept something from a guy with a ! over his head.

'Good roleplaying' means different things to different people. If a fighter grimly does his job on the front line without saying more than five words the whole session, did he roleplay well? I'd say so, but the thespian crowd probably wouldn't.

It depends on if he chose those 5 words wisely, I guess. You can get a lot out of very few words. If he managed to get his "Molon labe" moment out of those words, I'd say he wins the prize.

GM fiat is pure subjectivity. Rewards currying favor with GM above all.

"Good roleplaying" was arguably more GM fiat, since it represents an individualized reward. Individual rewards issued by GM fiat would likely end up being heavily based on this favor-currying you mentioned. Simply handing out level progression to the entire party by fiat rather than any systematic rule of XP rewards is perfectly fine. Arguably this is the best XP system for tabletop since it removes all the tiresome bean-counting and keeps the game paced where everyone wants it to be, as the GM can simply throw out more advancement if the players are bored with where they are, or slow it down if the players are enjoying where they are. Without any RULE dictating that you SHOULD be getting more or less XP, the pace can effectively be set to where everyone is comfortable and satisfied. This system can be applied to a lesser degree even in CRPG, where instead of having an XP system, you simply are given new advancement when the developers decide to give it to you.

Gold is the gold standard. It's objective, it incentivizes interesting gameplay, and it creates the core loop of older D&D and its descendants.

And, of course, it brings back the old principle of NO LOOT LEFT BEHIND that kids these days seem to be forgetting.

The problem is that it doesn't work for all genres. It wouldn't make any sense to award EXP for gold (or any other sort of currency) in, say, a supers game.

Well, it's a system for a specific genre. Superheroes are their own thing. Do superheroes even HAVE XP progression? As far as I know, most superheroes have a relatively fixed powerset and don't really change much. You've perhaps picked the genre that has the least use for XP in the first place.

In particular, I'm looking for sources that are objective and that incentivize fun gameplay.

I think you might be trying to square a circle here. On one hand you want it to be objective, but on the other hand, you also want it to be fun. Objectivity isn't really fun. Objectivity aims to suck the fun out. The fun is breaking the system.

either the player wants to spam one skill to get more success checkboxes marked, or the player wants to spam whatever he's worst at to accrue more failure EXP.

Yes, that's how it works in real life. Cue Eye of the Tiger skill grinding montage.

[Stack of Turtles]

In this case, it's not that I think most players actually would do that, but it is the incentivized behavior, and if the game mechanics are incentivizing dumb behavior, then they should be revised. (Also, I'm not sure it really is the most simulationist option if punching a goblin a million times is the theoretically optimal play for character advancement.)

Well, there are more and less simulationist ways to do it.
In reality, punching someone a million times very likely would improve your punching ability, but there are an extensive array of other reasons why it isn't the optimal way to do it, not the least of which is that just building your arm muscles has diminishing returns in an actual fight.

[Acrux]

You did just remind me, though, that GURPS has rules for training that can effectively be used to replace EXP rewards, so I guess that's another source: downtime training.

I would put downtime training as a subset of gold as it's usually driven by wealth, just with an added "in character" reason for using that money. It's usually my preferred advancement option.

[DemoGraph]

Ars Magica has a system where each char gets xp every season depending on his activities:
- he can live everyday life (work, kids, etc) and get some,
- he can be a student or read and practice from books and get more (depending on the source quality)
- he can do research, craft, etc. and get some depending on the skill
- he can go adventuring and get some depending on the result.
It could be mixed and matched, if adventures are short - e.g. a season of learning counts for XP if you don't interrupt it for more than 10 days for your adventure.

[DemoGraph]

gold

Is a reward by itself. And how would you represent trader who just lucked out on futures trading with ungodly margin? Instant superhero?

winning combat
'overcoming challenges'

These are actually the same (though I personally dislike combat XP outside of Diablo clones). I'd say that as long as characters are in danger of failing, some progress might be counted.
That is, PCs can sneak around the same dragon in circles as long as he can detect and oneshot them. They can only spend their XP on sneak, though.

'completing quests'

That's the main way, for me. Quests are modular, the better you do them, the more XP you get.

GM fiat

Everything is GM fiat in the end.

[Kalarion]

gold

Is a reward by itself. And how would you represent trader who just lucked out on futures trading with ungodly margin? Instant superhero?

No, I'd say a trader who did good on futures with an ungodly margin would become an instant really badass trader, possibly even attaining worldwide renown (even unjustifiably).

This has the benefit of tracking with real life.

---

I'm a bit stumped. I don't know any other methods in use that are as effective as what's already been listed.

But it occurs to me that perhaps what's implied by a thread like this is that we need to discover the One True XP Method if it's found not to exist. And if so, part of the reason I can't think of other good methods is that I don't know what kind of behavior I want to incentivize yet. I really hate to say, "but what is an XP system?", but that's got to figure into it. I'm also fine with settling on "I know it when I see it," but in that case I think we have to make peace with the fact that the One True XP Method may involve some combination of what's already known.

Beyond a GM's personal subjective desires for good player behaviors, what's the meta-standard for Good RPG Game Player behavior?

[DemoGraph]

what's the meta-standard for Good RPG Game Player behavior?

Making GM's life easier and more fun. Because GM also has to have fun. Or else!

So, coming up with character goals and reaching them, enriching the world via new plots... helping to make up modules, bringing snacks, paying for utility bills, oral services (bard only).

[WhiteShark]

I would put downtime training as a subset of gold as it's usually driven by wealth, just with an added "in character" reason for using that money. It's usually my preferred advancement option.

Well, technically, it's not quite the same. For example, the PC doesn't necessarily have to acquire the money himself to enjoy the benefits of training. A wealthy party could theoretically combine their resources to bring a new guy up to speed via training, something that doesn't work in with traditional gold-for-EXP. I agree that there's a high degree of practical overlap, though.

Beyond a GM's personal subjective desires for good player behaviors, what's the meta-standard for Good RPG Game Player behavior?

It's not about 'good' behavior so much as 'behavior that drives the game'. Gold works because it drives the game forward without being monotonous like winning combat. It gives the players a mechanical reason to pursue adventure. Even trading commodities becomes an adventure when that requires physically traveling between towns and facing whatever dangers and random events occur on the road.

So, the meta-standard is, EXP should incentivize the core gameplay activity. Whatever it is that makes the game tick, the EXP system should make players want to do that. I don't think there's a One True EXP method that suits all genres.

---

Random idea: RPG in which the players are missionaries/preachers/divinities that gain EXP from converting NPCs. There would be procedures for determining how many converts are made from direct preaching, how much easier the checks become when opposing religious influences are removed, how much easier they become when the party does things to gain the good will of the local populace, and so on. Some subjectivity unavoidable.

Godbound had something like this, but it had very little in the way of useful procedures: "Cult Power increases at the GM's judgment, when the PC has managed to accrue enough new believers to merit a Power increase." When does a Power increase happen? Well, here are the different Faction Power divisions:

1. Village, neighborhood, guild, cabal
2. City, regional faith, major institute
3. Province, region, widespread faith
4. Nation, realm-wide faith
5. Empire ruling an entire realm

No definitions provided for the boundaries between those, of course. Also, in Godbound, this was for a secondary EXP track called Dominion that had to be acquired in order to spend regular EXP, which was of the 'overcoming challenges' source.

[WhiteShark]

Everything is GM fiat in the end.

That's not true. Gold, attendance, time, and downtime training are all objective measures. You might argue that gold is fiat because the GM placed it, but whether they find it still comes down to player choice and the mechanics. Also, gold-for-EXP games typically have an impartial method of generating treasure troves.

[WhiteShark]

Well, there are more and less simulationist ways to do it.
In reality, punching someone a million times very likely would improve your punching ability, but there are an extensive array of other reasons why it isn't the optimal way to do it, not the least of which is that just building your arm muscles has diminishing returns in an actual fight.

Right, so another reason I don't like improve-by-use in play is that, in reality, experts are made in training, not in the tournament. It's possible for an expert to have a eureka moment in the heat of the contest, but, typically, almost all significant improvement will come from focused practice outside it. Hence, I find downtime training to be more simulationist than acquiring EXP towards skillups in play.

[J1M]

Let's not gloss over the flaws of gold created by how deeply flawed all RPG economies are. 1g for 40 arrows, 6g for a sword, but you sell a couple of +1 weapons and somehow the shopkeeper of a small town somehow has 4000g sitting in the till and you gain two levels.

Won't even go into how the prices of things don't make any sense for the common folk.

[WhiteShark]

Let's not gloss over the flaws of gold created by how deeply flawed all RPG economies are. 1g for 40 arrows, 6g for a sword, but you sell a couple of +1 weapons and somehow the shopkeeper of a small town somehow has 4000g sitting in the till and you gain two levels.

Won't even go into how the prices of things don't make any sense for the common folk.

This is true for 99.9% of all RPGs, but ACKS doesn't have this problem. Alexander Macris modeled the whole ancient economy, adjusted it for fantasy RPG conventions, and has rules for things like item availability in a given market size, how much currency they have lying around to buy your stuff, etc.

[J1M]

Possibly worth adding to the list: divine favor.

Some predictable actions for small boons (praying at the local temple, or holy site), but specific abilities equivalent to level ups granted by deities for acts of faith and accomplishments that further the deity's interests.

[WhiteShark]

I would put downtime training as a subset of gold as it's usually driven by wealth, just with an added "in character" reason for using that money. It's usually my preferred advancement option.

What system's training rules do you like best? The system I'm looking at, Street Fighter: the Storytelling Game, has a mechanic whereby a successful training roll from a teacher reduces the EXP cost for raising a trait, but there's nothing in there about time or cost, so I'm going to have to plunder such rules from somewhere else.

[WhiteShark]

I suddenly remembered today the other advantage of gold for EXP: it naturally leads in to domain play. In ACKS, taxes and tributes give EXP, and the EXP costs to level increase dramatically at the higher levels, so players are incentivized to become rulers and conquer territory to acquire a large, steady income of gold and EXP.

On that note, an idea: Vampire game with blood for EXP. Quantifiable! A human can only yield so much blood, so, as EXP requirements rise, it naturally becomes inefficient to just drain every human around, not to mention the response that would provoke. The vampire character would have to move on to targeting stronger creatures, diablerie, or... lordship over a realm that taxes blood! The vast quantities of blood collected could be distilled into their purest essence, negating the need to spend all day slurping blood tributes.

Other ideas:

• EXP for discoveries. The roguelike Infra Arcana only gives EXP for identifying magic items, encountering new monsters, and interacting with obelisks and other weird objects. Could probably be adapted to tabletop.
• EXP for exploration. I think I've encountered this in a published game somewhere, but I can't recall which. Finding and investigating unknown locations rewards EXP. Provided there's a procedure for investigation and 'unknown location' is well defined (such as a wilderness hex or a dungeon), should be more or less objective.
• EXP for acquiring artifacts. Objective. Artifacts could be functional or only exist to award EXP, the latter leading naturally to...
• EXP as a consumable. I guess Dark Souls did this first, but the idea came to me from what I've heard about Chinese cultivation fiction. Drink ancient mystical Daoist medicine, level up.

[DemoGraph]

EXP for exploration. I think I've encountered this in a published game somewhere, but I can't recall which.

World of Warcraft!

EXP as a consumable. I guess Dark Souls did this first

In The Void you spend EXP to cast spells and it serves as your HP.

For bonus points combine consumable EXP and EXP for gold:
You are a dragon! Plunder and hoard dem hoardies! Eat hoardies for stronger scales! Chew on hoardies for hotter belch! Give hoardies to orcs for humie slaves! Lay on hoardies for glitter points! Hoardies!

I suddenly remembered today the other advantage of gold for EXP: it naturally leads in to domain play.

Gold (money) for EXP fits badly into prehistoric, scifi, modern, superhero and mystical settings. You can't meditate to enlightenment, so high level monastics are harder to make. For the sake of an argument, I'd argue that only D&D-style dungeon crawl fits the mechanic well.
High lethality leads to domain play.

(I'm acting a devil's advocate here.)

[WhiteShark]

Gold (money) for EXP fits badly into [...] scifi

Counterpoint: I think it works fine in space games where there's room for an upstart mercenary company to take over a sector or two. I think it still works in cyberpunk, but the potential for conventional domain play is limited. I can still imagine a game where the players become megacorporation executives, though.

High lethality leads to domain play.

But what are the PCs after in a game that becomes domain level if it isn't gold or money? May as well retire at that point.

[DemoGraph]

High lethality leads to domain play.

But what are the PCs after in a game that becomes domain level if it isn't gold or money? May as well retire at that point.

Long-term game world changes without the risk of being nullified in another dungeon crawl.
Fighting large-scale threats (orc hordes, desertification, political movements).
"Playing strategy" is a fun by itself.

[Acrux]

I would put downtime training as a subset of gold as it's usually driven by wealth, just with an added "in character" reason for using that money. It's usually my preferred advancement option.

What system's training rules do you like best? The system I'm looking at, Street Fighter: the Storytelling Game, has a mechanic whereby a successful training roll from a teacher reduces the EXP cost for raising a trait, but there's nothing in there about time or cost, so I'm going to have to plunder such rules from somewhere else.

Honestly, I think AD&D has the best rules for this. It's not much favored anymore, but this guy has a view similar to mine on why it does work and what it requires in the game: https://www.thebluebard.com/blog/adampd-why-we-train

(Also, I just checked the ACKSII Judges Journal to see if there were some alternate rules for this, but he apparently doesn't like training for levels and said he has no plans to create rules for it.)

[J1M]

I suddenly remembered today the other advantage of gold for EXP: it naturally leads in to domain play. In ACKS, taxes and tributes give EXP, and the EXP costs to level increase dramatically at the higher levels, so players are incentivized to become rulers and conquer territory to acquire a large, steady income of gold and EXP.

On that note, an idea: Vampire game with blood for EXP. Quantifiable! A human can only yield so much blood, so, as EXP requirements rise, it naturally becomes inefficient to just drain every human around, not to mention the response that would provoke. The vampire character would have to move on to targeting stronger creatures, diablerie, or... lordship over a realm that taxes blood! The vast quantities of blood collected could be distilled into their purest essence, negating the need to spend all day slurping blood tributes.

Other ideas:

• EXP for discoveries. The roguelike Infra Arcana only gives EXP for identifying magic items, encountering new monsters, and interacting with obelisks and other weird objects. Could probably be adapted to tabletop.
• EXP for exploration. I think I've encountered this in a published game somewhere, but I can't recall which. Finding and investigating unknown locations rewards EXP. Provided there's a procedure for investigation and 'unknown location' is well defined (such as a wilderness hex or a dungeon), should be more or less objective.
• EXP for acquiring artifacts. Objective. Artifacts could be functional or only exist to award EXP, the latter leading naturally to...
• EXP as a consumable. I guess Dark Souls did this first, but the idea came to me from what I've heard about Chinese cultivation fiction. Drink ancient mystical Daoist medicine, level up.

When you buy something, does your character get weaker? If not, you just hand money back and forth to an NPC to reach max power level? It's good that it puts the focus on treasure instead of slaying but it is a bit silly beyond that.

[WhiteShark]

When you buy something, does your character get weaker?

No, a character does not grow weaker when he spends gold; the EXP comes from the gaining, not the having.

If not, you just hand money back and forth to an NPC to reach max power level? It's good that it puts the focus on treasure instead of slaying but it is a bit silly beyond that.

Yes, that would be silly. Using ACKS as my example again, gold from normal wages and business transactions doesn't count. The categories of gold (really, monetary value) that count are:

• Treasure recovered from dungeons or wilderness and brought back to civilization
• Treasure from rewards and ransoms
• Domain or syndicate income
• Income from arbitrage and transporting of goods

ACKS also does give EXP for some other activities, but gold (treasure) is still the primary source.

[rusty_shackleford]

Treasure recovered from dungeons or wilderness and brought back to civilization

step 1. clear dungeon & collect loot, bring back to town
step 2. take loot back to dungeon, bring it back again

[J1M]

Treasure recovered from dungeons or wilderness and brought back to civilization

step 1. clear dungeon & collect loot, bring back to town
step 2. take loot back to dungeon, bring it back again

Don't even need to involve an NPC, nice.