Which JRPG setting you like?

[Chudrick]

I like settings where on the surface it is fantasy but if you dig a bit it's implied the story is sci-fi, or at least it has sci-fi elements. The best example I can think of is SaGa Frontier 2.

[Norfleet]

A lot of them are pretty interesting at a high concept level, but none of them feel like they could be real places once you're at the ground level. They tend to be very video gamey in presentation with things like town layouts, lack interconnectedness between places in the world unless it's directly relevant to the plot, and throw random elements from different genres with little thought for how they'd affect each other. I mostly remember them for aesthetics, not for anything interesting they do with the world.

That's because Japan was actually kinda like that. Japan existed effectively in a kind of medieval stasis for hundreds of years where towns were isolated from each other by often-impassable mountains, and then suddenly had modernity thrust upon it, so you had what was effectively a medieval village suddenly sprouting a train station and a factory. Japan was effectively a medieval setting right up until the mid 1800s when suddenly everything modern was dumped on them all at once.

[anvi]

I love the settings in jrpgs. I used to like traditional fantasy RPGs but PC kinda lost its way with that. They all ended up kind of the same. So playing JRPGs was a breath of fresh air. I only played a few but I liked the setting. FFT was pretty traditional RPG but it had a kind of medeival Europe setting with royalty and stuff that I liked. I also played Valkyria Chronicles and was shocked when a tank showed up. I love the idea of a fantasy ww2 kind of setting.

I always thought "high fantasy" was my kind of thing, Everquest is still my favourite game. But sometimes high fantasy can become a bit of a joke. Demons and thought stealers from another dimension or whatever, bla bla bla. Sometimes it can be too high fantasy and just become a bunch of nonsense. I really like it to be more rooted in real life.

[WhiteShark]

Thinking on something @Val the Moofia Boss brought up earlier in the thread. I think a common sin in setting design is making it a 'closed' setting, one in which its borders and constitutive elements are too strictly defined. If the whole world has three countries, it feels claustrophobic. It's better to leave room at the edges so that one may always wonder what's over the next mountain. To add something to such a setting later, one must decide retroactively that it was always there, hidden away in one of the preexisting elements, or have it come from space or another plane of existence, which can drastically alter the feel of a setting.

To keep this on-topic, I've always enjoyed JRPGs with lost precursor magitech, usually made by an extinct or hidden superior race. This is pretty similar to Tolkien's elves, now that I think about it. Grandia II had something like that. Tales of Symphonia was an archetypical example. "What's the difference between science fiction technology and magitech?" Most of it is probably just aesthetics—sleek sci-fi designs with vibrant colors and a fantasy atmosphere—but the possibilities also feel wider. The limits of magic are vague, so the limits of magic-as-technology are also vague. Anything can be justified as long as the principle remains at least somewhat consistent.

[DemoGraph]

I think a common sin in setting design is making it a 'closed' setting, one in which its borders and constitutive elements are too strictly defined. If the whole world has three countries, it feels claustrophobic.

I think, there's also another sin - making a setting so vast that characters can't affect it. Game settings tend to suffer from it "to make place for player agenda". D&D, 40k, Planescape, you name it. All of them make impersonal character agency meaningless.
The similar effect happens for endless settings or settings with time loops.
I really want to like Planescape setting. But then I read something like "there's an endless number of worlds with devils, oh btw and there're only two million modrons, but they weren't swamped with devilish hordes for some reason, like, honest, and whole world was shocked when two thousands of them marched from point A to point B". ****** rig worldbuilding.

So I prefer settings to be finite, but large enough for characters to be unable to "clear" them (or even visit) in their lifetimes.

"What's the difference between science fiction technology and magitech?"

I also thought about it. Sci-fi is usually bounded by energy conservation laws. So it requires industry and large societies (or at least large scope AI-managed material assets) and presupposes that characters represent that society.
"Magic" is more personal and solipsistic. Unlike heavy artillery, Gandalf didn't require logistic network to shoot fireballs.

[gerey]

Tales of Symphonia was an archetypical example. "What's the difference between science fiction technology and magitech?" Most of it is probably just aesthetics—sleek sci-fi designs with vibrant colors and a fantasy atmosphere—but the possibilities also feel wider. The limits of magic are vague, so the limits of magic-as-technology are also vague. Anything can be justified as long as the principle remains at least somewhat consistent.

The last two Zeldas had traces of that, Skies of Arcadia too. FFX takes place in what is basically a (gay) post-post-apocalypse. There's also Radiant Historia IIRC. There's loads of other jRPGs that have something similar going on that I haven't played, it seems to be a pretty popular plot thread.

I think you can trace the idea back to Ghibli's Castle in the Sky.

[WhiteShark]

I think, there's also another sin - making a setting so vast that characters can't affect it. Game settings tend to suffer from it "to make place for player agenda". D&D, 40k, Planescape, you name it. All of them make impersonal character agency meaningless.
The similar effect happens for endless settings or settings with time loops.

Oh, yes, for sure. My interest in a setting completely evaporates the moment I find out it's an 'infinite multiverse' or other such nonsense. Even in non-interactive mediums, I hate it. Who cares that the heroes saved the world if 'the world' is just one infinitesimally small piece of an an endless whole? Who cares that the heroes stopped the bad guy this time if he's inevitably going to come back over and over for all eternity?

I really want to like Planescape setting. But then I read something like "there's an endless number of worlds with devils, oh btw and there're only two million modrons, but they weren't swamped with devilish hordes for some reason, like, honest, and whole world was shocked when two thousands of them marched from point A to point B". ****** rig worldbuilding.

The Abyss is such nonsense. Were it truly infinite, the possibility that an infinitely large, unstoppable army of demons leaks out of it would be inevitable, not just in the sense that it could happen 'at any time', but in the sense that it should be happening all the time.

So I prefer settings to be finite, but large enough for characters to be unable to "clear" them (or even visit) in their lifetimes.

I agree completely. It needs to be finite in both time and space, even if the exact boundaries are not clearly defined.

Furthermore, I think an eschatology that allows for hope is necessary for meaningful agency. At some point, Games Workshop decided that a Chaos victory is inevitable in Warhammer 40k (or so I hear; feel free to correct me, experts), which robs the setting of meaning. No victory one can achieve matters in the face of Chaos. Likewise in Call of Cthulhu. Yes, I understand that only being able to temporarily stave off the doom of humanity by uncaring godlike entities is supposed to evoke existential dread, but, at some point, you have to stop and ask: why bother? If the world is but a dream and lasting salvation impossible, what's the point? If anyone, those who go mad with despair in the Cthulhu Mythos setting are in the right.

[WhiteShark]

Radiant Historia

I think this is actually an interesting divergence. From what I remember, an ancient, lost civilization did make the books, but the rest of the magitech was all invented in the current time by that cyborg scientist. It's closer to a fantasy Industrial Revolution, I think.

[DemoGraph]

At some point, Games Workshop decided that a Chaos victory is inevitable in Warhammer 40k (or so I hear; feel free to correct me, experts)

They definitely did this with WHFB.
In case you don't know, Old World was torn apart by Chaos and bits of survivors were reborn in Age of Sigmar because Sigmar was weak but strong and magic.

Who cares that the heroes saved the world if 'the world' is just one infinitesimally piece of an an endless whole?

I wouldn't be THAT radical. It would mean that saving Earth from Hitler (or w/e) is useless.
You can have endless universe, but it should be isolated enough for all external contact to be very limited and "unable to be concentrated on principle" (but this makes all the "endless" thing almost irrelevant). But this probably goes under "It needs to be finite in both time and space".

[WhiteShark]

I wouldn't be THAT radical. It would mean that saving Earth from Hitler (or w/e) is useless.

I would. Think about it. In an infinite multiverse, there are infinite worlds where the bad guys won infinite worlds where the good guys won. Winning or losing in one world changes nothing. No matter how many worlds there are in which the good guys win, there are still an infinite number of worlds where the bad guys win. No matter how many worlds there are in which the bad guys win, there are still infinite worlds where the good guys win. It's absurd. It makes the setting a joke.

One premise I do like is that of timelines or worldlines: there may be an infinite number of possible worlds, but only one is real at any given time. Then the struggle becomes making sure the world follows the right path. There may be an infinite number of potential worlds in which the bad guys win, but the heroes can have a meaningful victory by making sure one of the good worldlines is the one that ends up actualized. As in a multiversal setting, the possibilities are endless, but agency and meaning are maintained.

[Oyster Sauce]

I wouldn't be THAT radical. It would mean that saving Earth from Hitler (or w/e) is useless.

I would. Think about it. In an infinite multiverse, there are infinite worlds where the bad guys won infinite worlds where the good guys won. Winning or losing in one world changes nothing. No matter how many worlds there are in which the good guys win, there are still an infinite number of worlds where the bad guys win. No matter how many worlds there are in which the bad guys win, there are still infinite worlds where the good guys win. It's absurd. It makes the setting a joke.

One premise I do like is the idea of timelines or worldlines: there may be an infinite number of possible worlds, but only one is real at any given time. Then the struggle becomes making sure the world follows the right path. There may be an infinite number of potential worlds in which the bad guys win, but the heroes can have a meaningful victory by making sure one of the good worldlines is the one that ends up actualized. As in a multiversal setting, the possibilities are endless, but agency and meaning are maintained.

It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness

[rusty_shackleford]

n an infinite multivers

capeshit

[rusty_shackleford]

Who cares that the heroes saved the world if 'the world' is just one infinitesimally small piece of an an endless whole?

this is a major issue with space sci-fi that is very hard to solve

[Tangerine]

Who cares that the heroes saved the world if 'the world' is just one infinitesimally small piece of an an endless whole?

this is a major issue with space sci-fi that is very hard to solve

It's why collapsing space empires or planets of unobtanium are common tropes. They're pieces with enough impact that the stakes feel they matter.

[rusty_shackleford]

Is there an hq approved list of non-**** JRPGs somewhere?
That is, the ones that aren't weird weeb games that might get me arrested if a cop saw me playing it?

[gerey]

That is, the ones that aren't weird weeb games that might get me arrested if a cop saw me playing it?

Dunno about a list, but the ones I liked were Final Fantasy: Tactics, Radiant Historia, Chorno Trigger, Skies of Arcadia, Front Mission 1/2/3/4/5, Suikoden 1/2, Tactics Ogre.

[Oyster Sauce]

I really liked what I played of the Front Mission DS remake. Gotta get back to that.

[DemoGraph]

I wouldn't be THAT radical. It would mean that saving Earth from Hitler (or w/e) is useless.

I would. Think about it. In an infinite multiverse, there are infinite worlds where the bad guys won infinite worlds where the good guys won. Winning or losing in one world changes nothing. No matter how many worlds there are in which the good guys win, there are still an infinite number of worlds where the bad guys win. No matter how many worlds there are in which the bad guys win, there are still infinite worlds where the good guys win. It's absurd. It makes the setting a joke.

Yep, I get it.
But this approach, when taken to extreme, makes everything that happens on our Earth, IRL, irrelevant. Universe is a dozen billion years old, so ultra advanced grey aliens are definitely out there somewhere. A typical apes or angels problem.
Yet we do ****.
Hence why I wrote about isolation an stuff.
I feel like many low fantasy settings could exist with an endless chaos plane or something, because it doesn't really affect the setting. (Why said chaos plane should be present in the setting at all is completely different matter.)

[WhiteShark]

But this approach, when taken to extreme, makes everything that happens on our Earth, IRL, irrelevant. Universe is a dozen billion years old, so ultra advanced grey aliens are definitely out there somewhere. A typical apes or angels problem.

As a young Earth creationist, I don't have this problem.

I feel like many low fantasy settings could exist with an endless chaos plane or something, because it doesn't really affect the setting. (Why said chaos plane should be present in the setting at all is completely different matter.)

Actually, this reminds me of the Amber setting. In it, there are two poles of reality: Amber, representing order, and the Courts of Chaos, the opposite. There are an infinity of worlds that exist between the two poles (collectively called the Shadow), but none of them are 'real' in the same sense that Amber and the Courts are. So, on the one hand, it is an infinite multiverse, but, on the other hand, by making Amber and Chaos the only worlds that really matter, the rest just becomes a means to an end, at least for the main characters. They can go wile away the years in the Shadow if they want, doing whatever they please, but it is what happens in Amber that dictates the rest of reality. This neatly reconciles an infinite multiverse with meaningful agency.

[Norfleet]

But this approach, when taken to extreme, makes everything that happens on our Earth, IRL, irrelevant. Universe is a dozen billion years old, so ultra advanced grey aliens are definitely out there somewhere. A typical apes or angels problem.

The apes or angels problem has a much simpler solution to it: First past the post. After somebody attains runaway, there is no longer anybody else because everyone else gets turned into parking lot before they get to finish coming into existence. It would require being extremely (un)lucky to somehow be alive (even as a species) to witness "It's Happening" without being the cause of it. For everyone else, they get to be in the "tt hasn't even started yet". There will be no one around to witness "it's over". Simply observe the race of life on Earth for microcosm thereof: "It's happening" lasted a few thousand years, and now "It's Over". No other critter gets to come into existence and not notice that we've trashed everything already. The galaxy will shake out the same way: Either you emerge before the Great Entrashening, and see nothing, you are the ones causing the Great Entrashening, or you don't get to happen because you've been trashed by somebody who got there first. Imagine Stellaris, only instead players start at random times spread out over a few million years (in a game that is a competitive enterprise for maybe 150). Is there a game still?

[Statesman]

Is there an hq approved list of non-**** JRPGs somewhere?
That is, the ones that aren't weird weeb games that might get me arrested if a cop saw me playing it?

Incoming Weaboo's Guild list @Val the Moofia Boss?
Even so, you'll be hard-pressed to escape the anime aesthetic (but at least most of the good/older games won't be moe).

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Is there an hq approved list of non-**** JRPGs somewhere?
That is, the ones that aren't weird weeb games that might get me arrested if a cop saw me playing it?

If you want JRPGs with a more realistic aesthetic as opposed to the usual anime artstyle, then your options are extremely limited, especially if you want actually good games. Fire Emblem 4, Resonance of Fate, The Last Remnant, and Lost Odyssey don't look like your typical JRPGs, but they are just not very good. You are pretty much just looking at the Final Fantasy games, Suikoden 1 and 2, Xenogears, and Valkyria Chronicles 1 & 4 (moreso 1).

The Final Fantasy games. The JRPG fandom likes to put FF6 and the PS1 games on a pedestal, but I thought that FF12 and FF13 were also very good, though in different ways. There is also FF14 if you go in already knowing what you are getting ahead of time (500+ hour long visual novel, writing swerve about 300 hours in circa the end of Stormblood/start of Shadowbringers when the initial focus on grounded geopolitical conflicts with consequences in dropped in favor of light vs dark shounen storylines in which consequences are handwaved away. Etc).

Suikoden 1 is a tight 15 hour long heavy war story with many deaths left and right. The second game is not as tight or as heavy but is still worth playing.

Valkyria Chronicles 1 is set in fantasy world war 1 about one country in a much larger war. The main cast is overall older than usual. VC4 has a much more gripping story and better gameplay, but it has an overall younger cast and the first few hours have juvenile antics that might alienate people before they get to the good stuff.




If you are willing to put up with some anime artstyle and lewdness, then I would also recommend the Trails series as they overall have a more grounded scope than your usual JRPG, being focused on geopolitical conflicts within a few countries. Trails in the Sky FC and the first two Trails of Cold Steel games have the best plot in this regard. But they also have an anime aesthetic with some lolis and scantily clad women. Similarly, Granblue Fantasy (the gacha game)'s main story and some side storylines like the Dragon Knights when it is about kingdom vs kingdom or the anniversary events, and again some odd character designs. Also some visual novels like Aselia, Witch on the Holy Night, World End Economica, Hakuoki, Utawarerumono, etc. Witch and WeE have anime artstyles but nothing embarrassing (only a couple brief shots in WEE across the 30-45 hours of runtime).







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Not recommended:

Fire Emblem 4: grossly overrated. Very little story and most of it is fighting copypasted bandits. The vast majority of your game time will be spent trying to move your units across oversized maps and fighting dozens of random bandit chieftains. Very little actually happened plot wise by chapter 4, half way through the game. And then the battles themselves suffer from the same save-scumitis that often plagues the genre as you move a guy just one tile further and then that's just enough for 4 enemies to be able to reach him and kill him. You need to play these games with savestates. Just play the newer ones, but those will have aesthetics that CRPG players might turn their nose at.

Resonance of Fate: the main story is pretty much nonexistent. The gameplay is mostly the same tedious battle system throughout.

The Last Remnant: is a 100+ hour long game with barely 2 hours of actual story. You can beat the story in 20 hours. The vast majority of the game is slowly running through levels to reach a mob location, and there is huge amounts of layers of RNG upon RNG that makes the game very frustrating to play without using the TLRplanner mod to force spawn quest mobs and forcedrop their inventories and to teleport you to the mobs. You also need to be following a guide to do the missable limited time quests in order and to set up your party in a very specific way early on so that a couple characters will have learned the Cachexia spell by the time you unlock The Fallen superboss towards the end. Story is nothing to write home about. Has neat powermetal battle music by Black Mages guitarist Tsuyoshi Sekito. Was novel but I wouldn't really recommend it.

Lost Odyssey: main story is bad, mediocre English dub, the VN segments are interesting but you could just watch a youtube video for those.

@gerey mentioned Matsuno's Tactics games but personally I found them to be overrated and not that enjoyable. The main issue is that 1. his casts of characters are overall unmemorable, not like Fire Emblem or VC or Sakura Wars, etc. And 2. the managerial gameplay is a slog and frustrating (the game promises customization but you are not sure if it will actually let you pull off that magic spearman build you were envisioning, and then 80 hours later it never came to fruition). Suffers from typical SRPG savescum-itis.

Tactics Ogre has an overall okay story that is grounded all the way through. It also feels a little more grandiose with 10 people on the field. FFT's story is grossly overrated, starts off being about starving unpaid war vets turning to banditry to make ends meat but then the plot gets quickly hijacked by le evil Church and demons. You only get 5 characters in battle which makes the battles feel less important, and you had to do a lot of grinding. FFTA2 is the best Tactics series gameplay experience but the aesthetics are going to alienate the usual suspects who dislike "animu" games and worship at the alter of Matsuno and Miyazaki.