World of Warcraft: Retail, Classic and Private

[LemonDemonGirl]

The downfall of WoW really needs to be studied

https://i.imgur.com/m3tjd6D.mp4

Forgive the **** quality video with no sound, not sure where to find the proper link

Well...

Yes I know it's Assmongoloid, but still.

[rusty_shackleford]

Actually impressive how bad that is, worse than stuff people used to make for youtube videos 15 years ago. This is a game that has made tens of billions of dollars.

[Oyster Sauce]

this cutscene doesn't seem too bad

[Norfleet]

I play mainly for heroic and mythic raiding with my guild. But yeah the story took a massive nosedive after Legion and then crashed in a fiery nuclear explosion in Shadowlands. The lore has been so irredeemably raped and defiled that it's no longer recognizable. Zero interest in paying any attention to this pozzed slop.

The problem with lore and story is that you can only drag it out for so long before it gets just played out. In lore, just like in real life, Nothing Ever Happens: The world stays unchanged for a thousand years until the demon-in-a-can awakens. The heroes banish the demon, demonstrating once again that nothing ever happens. In a single player game or a movie, that'd be it. The story's done. But this can't happen in an MMO: Something bigger and badder has to immediately follow, or the brainrotted Generation ADHD players raised on a steady diet of Michael Bay movies won't be satisfied with their explosions-per-minute.

Problem is, this can only go on for so long before it just becomes stupid. It does not help that the people who wrote the original game have long since acquired so much seniority that the company no longer wishes to pay them the wages they're due and therefore has them sacked and replaced with their talentless understudies. People who, I point out, had they been any good, would have had the original job in the first place. That's why they didn't. So now you have a tapped out plot being hamhandedly forced along by people who weren't talented enough to have been doing this in the first place. It was never going to end well.

[buttfucker 3000]

I play mainly for heroic and mythic raiding with my guild. But yeah the story took a massive nosedive after Legion and then crashed in a fiery nuclear explosion in Shadowlands. The lore has been so irredeemably raped and defiled that it's no longer recognizable. Zero interest in paying any attention to this pozzed slop.

The problem with lore and story is that you can only drag it out for so long before it gets just played out. In lore, just like in real life, Nothing Ever Happens: The world stays unchanged for a thousand years until the demon-in-a-can awakens. The heroes banish the demon, demonstrating once again that nothing ever happens. In a single player game or a movie, that'd be it. The story's done. But this can't happen in an MMO: Something bigger and badder has to immediately follow, or the brainrotted Generation ADHD players raised on a steady diet of Michael Bay movies won't be satisfied with their explosions-per-minute.

Problem is, this can only go on for so long before it just becomes stupid. It does not help that the people who wrote the original game have long since acquired so much seniority that the company no longer wishes to pay them the wages they're due and therefore has them sacked and replaced with their talentless understudies. People who, I point out, had they been any good, would have had the original job in the first place. That's why they didn't. So now you have a tapped out plot being hamhandedly forced along by people who weren't talented enough to have been doing this in the first place. It was never going to end well.

Yep. Sargeras, the big bad of the WoW universe gets banished, so in comes the Jailer, or Zovaal, who somehow is on a power level above Sargeras and the other titans. Jailer is defeated, and it is revealed that the entire universe is fake and everyone is actually just a robot printed out of machines.

It's just ridiculous, but you're spot on.

[LemonDemonGirl]

I think it's time for WoW 2. Or a ARR type of reboot. **** the game engine is old.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

People are missing the forests for the trees. People are fixating on specific moments like Sargeras stabbing a planet, Sylvanas "I will never serve", etc. Those are bad, but they are a few 2 minute cutscenes in a game hundreds to thousands of hours long. We can point to individual neat quests from ye good ole days, but those are few and far between in an experience that is overall drek.

WoW's storytelling is fundamentally hamstringed because of the moment-to-moment experience. You walk up to an NPC and click him and read paragraphs of quest text which is located in a small window of your monitor. You accept tens of thousands of quests in this game, which means tens of thousands of paragraphs, so the player quickly learns to skim over the quest text and just hit accept. Then the NPC starts walking and talking, and may or may not summarize the quest text. Or characters will walk up to each other and have a chat, but during all of this your camera is zoomed out far away and you can't identify anyone's face and get attached to them, and you are being distracted by all of this other UI and stuff going on in the game world like being on the lookout for mobs that might aggro, treasure chests on your minimap, other quest objectives you can do nearby, etc.. Rinse repeat for hundreds to thousands of hours. Occasionally the story is punctuated by a cutscene (of varying quality), but the story is DOA due to the presentation.




FF14 gets people to care because the moment to moment presentation for the 500+ hour long story is at least serviceable, having multiple cutscenes for every single quest that gives you close up shots of the characters. There is nothing else to distract you during these cutscenes, allowing you to focus on the story. The sidequests don't have cutscenes and are just WoW styled paragraphs of text that people will quickly stop reading due to the sheer number of them, so nobody does them.






Another major impediment is that the WoW player character - the character you are controlling and following around for tens of thousands of hours - is almost always a non-character in the story. He has zero ability to influence or direct what other characters or factions do, and the narrative hardly ever acknowledges that you exist, that you are now far and away the senior most experienced member of the Horde/Alliance, the great hero who saved everyone 20 times over, who saved hundreds of small Tuskarr and Panda and Niffen villages and should be a chief ambassador, etc. When the character you should be most invested in and has far and away the most screentime is a noncharacter in the story, that severely cripples people's investment in the story when the only thing that matters is other NPCs who people only see some of the time.

In GW2 your character is voice acted, which means he can try to reason with other characters or bark orders to others and they follow. And in both GW2 and FF14, the other characters and the narrative acknowledge that you exist and are a great experienced hero, and other people come to YOU to ask you to lead an army or to advocate for their royal claim because your name has more influence than even some princes now. Your character will probably not die, but he is actually involved in the story which makes the player much more like to give a ****.

[rusty_shackleford]

WoW was the best at a few things, but it never got close in the story department.
Good controls, fluid combat, easy onboarding, etc., were what propelled WoW to its heights.


Easy for people to forget how poorly a lot of MMOs played, it's not something you can even see anymore when you go and play e.g., Everquest, because the issue has largely been alleviated with modern internet. But EQ and similar games did not have any sort of network prediction/lag compensation. WoW was the first MMO I played that felt like I was actually playing a game with controls/responsiveness comparable to an offline game.

[methoxetamine]

I think it's time for WoW 2. Or a ARR type of reboot. **** the game engine is old.

They'll just royally **** it up, so no thanks. Sell the rights to japs/******/***** then maybe I'd care

Nvm about ***** actually, they can't do mmo's to save their lives

[rusty_shackleford]

Another major impediment is that the WoW player character - the character you are controlling and following around for tens of thousands of hours - is almost always a non-character in the story. He has zero ability to influence or direct what other characters or factions do, and the narrative hardly ever acknowledges that you exist, that you are now far and away the senior most experienced member of the Horde/Alliance, the great hero who saved everyone 20 times over, who saved hundreds of small Tuskarr and Panda and Niffen villages and should be a chief ambassador, etc. When the character you should be most invested in and has far and away the most screentime is a noncharacter in the story, that severely cripples people's investment in the story when the only thing that matters is other NPCs who people only see some of the time.

In GW2 your character is voice acted, which means he can try to reason with other characters or bark orders to others and they follow. And in both GW2 and FF14, the other characters and the narrative acknowledge that you exist and are a great experienced hero, and other people come to YOU to ask you to lead an army or to advocate for their royal claim because your name has more influence than even some princes now. Your character will probably not die, but he is actually involved in the story which makes the player much more like to give a ****.

It's just impressive how little WoW does(did?) on everything that isn't directly related to gameplay contrasted to just how much money it makes/made. The art was quite good too, but still. The return on the money actually made — and presumably invested — after the fist few years has been terrible.

WoW has made enough to finance the development of hundreds of AA/smaller AAA games. What is there to show for it? Where and how was this money even invested?

There's no way anyone can convince me that they couldn't hire a team of quest designers, scripters, and writers just to go through and add new quests to every zone, for example. This is something that could be done entirely concurrently while the main team is doing whatever they're doing.

---

I played WoW for years and if you asked me to name a memorable quest I'd draw a blank.
I dunno? uhh… maybe the one that's a poor knockoff of plants vs zombies, I guess?

I remember a few really terrible dailies that I hated doing, that's memorable! Like the sunwell bombing one.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I played WoW for years and if you asked me to name a memorable quest I'd draw a blank.
I dunno? uhh… maybe the one that's a poor knockoff of plants vs zombies, I guess?

I remember a lot of quests in WoW. "Do the Right Thing" where you get handed a shovel to bash in the skulls of human farmers buried up to their necks in the dirt calling for help. The Cata Silverpine Forest quest where you are machinegunning an incoming horde of Worgen as they try to cross a river. The Chen Stormstout and Mugmug quests in Valley of the Four Winds where you are just chilling and doing zany things. The Townlong Steppes quest with the Pandaren woman who finds her husband dead in a Yaungol encampment, runs off to get revenge, gets possessed by the Sha and then dies. The sudden demise of Warbrave Oro in the Highmountain questline. The Race Through Time questline in Thaldrazus where you are rapidly teleporting to different locations and time periods. Etc.

[buttfucker 3000]

I played WoW for years and if you asked me to name a memorable quest I'd draw a blank.
I dunno? uhh… maybe the one that's a poor knockoff of plants vs zombies, I guess?

I remember a lot of quests in WoW. "Do the Right Thing" where you get handed a shovel to bash in the skulls of human farmers buried up to their necks in the dirt calling for help. The Cata Silverpine Forest quest where you are machinegunning an incoming horde of Worgen as they try to cross a river. The Chen Stormstout and Mugmug quests in Valley of the Four Winds where you are just chilling and doing zany things. The Townlong Steppes quest with the Pandaren woman who finds her husband dead in a Yaungol encampment, runs off to get revenge, gets possessed by the Sha and then dies. The sudden demise of Warbrave Oro in the Highmountain questline. The Race Through Time questline in Thaldrazus where you are rapidly teleporting to different locations and time periods. Etc.

The only one i vividly remember was the one in Silverpine Forest where Garrosh calls Sylvanas a *****

[Manny V]

Yesterday i did the Mag'har questchain in Outland where Thrall ends up coming over to Garadar, meeting with his long lost grandmother, showing Garrosh the vision of Grom defeating Mannoroth, inspiring hope in him and getting him out of his depressed stupor

was kino

although because it's on a private server of course it was buggy and Thrall was just a floating Doomhammer

[TheEmptyRoad]

The Worgen Starting Zone still stands out to me all these years later. Unless you absolutely HATE the Victorian Aesthetic it’s by far the best starting experience in the game.

[Manny V]

The Worgen Starting Zone still stands out to me all these years later. Unless you absolutely HATE the Victorian Aesthetic it’s by far the best starting experience in the game.

hi, it's me, guy who hates Victorian aesthetic (and furries)

[Kalarion]

It's just impressive how little WoW does(did?) on everything that isn't directly related to gameplay contrasted to just how much money it makes/made. The art was quite good too, but still. The return on the money actually made — and presumably invested — after the fist few years has been terrible.

WoW has made enough to finance the development of hundreds of AA/smaller AAA games. What is there to show for it? Where and how was this money even invested?

There's no way anyone can convince me that they couldn't hire a team of quest designers, scripters, and writers just to go through and add new quests to every zone, for example. This is something that could be done entirely concurrently while the main team is doing whatever they're doing.

---

I played WoW for years and if you asked me to name a memorable quest I'd draw a blank.
I dunno? uhh… maybe the one that's a poor knockoff of plants vs zombies, I guess?

I remember a few really terrible dailies that I hated doing, that's memorable! Like the sunwell bombing one.

I liked both the Defias and Scarlet Brotherhood lines, as far as they went. They just sorta curled up and died at about level... 35 or so? though. Shame.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I like the Gilneas starting zone too, though I would not say it is the best by far.

The original WotLK Death Knight starting storyline tells a good story about fighting for the bad guys and then the reformation at Light's Hope Chapel. It is also an organization story about the Ebon Blade/Acherus, showing you the different roles and forces in that groups like the death steed trainers, the guys who go collect undead and prisoners to chain them up as training dummies for new death knights, the people sutchering abominations, the scouts creeping around the human settlements, etc. The Ebon Blade gets fleshed out as a functioning organization better than most of the other class organizations.

The Pandaren starting storyline/zone on the Wandering Isle is also great. You get gorgeous looking environments and an imaginative setting with the giant turtle. You can turn and see the huge flappers splashing in the ocean. Very fun experience as you climb that tower to snatch the fire out of the masters' hand, going to the area with the water ponds and balancing on the wooden logs and playing with the cute friendly Pandaren water elemental spirit, then going to the farmland with the cute little rabbit monsters, and then getting on the balloon and seeing the humongous head of Shen-zin-Su, and then visiting the Wood of Staves which is a forest made from the staves of masters who planted them into the ground before dying. The gag of going from village to village and seeing Jojo try to smash wood then bricks and then the jade statue was amusing. Great music.

The Demon Hunter storyline is interesting in how it covers multiple time periods and worlds, with the story beginning during TBC when the raiders are attacking Black Temple, so Illidan sends you through a portal to a cool looking shattered planet to kill some demons and grab something, but then by the time you get back the raiders have cleared BT and turn around and ambush you and throw you in prison. Fast forward to Legion and then you get broken out of jail to escape and hijack a spaceship.

Not objectively amazing, but I am partial to Mulgore, mainly due to nostalgia. The first character I ever made was a Tauren. So I started in this zone not knowing anything else about WoW, and I hadn't been jaded by the earlygame experience yet. I came in and spent a lot of time running around talking to NPCs and reading their dialogues, looking through their inventories reading item flavor text and comparing +2 armor shirts, running around exploring the Quillboar areas and then the lakes, furiously fighting against the carrion birds alongside the road and dying, going into the mines and single pulling trying not to die, running past the cancer kid's NPC and helping him find his dog, doing some fishing at the lake, learning skinning and cooking, etc. The zone is picturesque with wide open valleys, coniferous trees, blue lakes, mountains in the background, etc. And then finally going to Thunder Bluff, which felt like a cool comfy Boy Scout camp.

[Manny V]

The Kalimdor Horde leveling experience is always great imo, from Durotar/Mulgore to Barrens, then up to Stonetalon and Ashenvale, heading back down to Thousand Needles and going on to Tanaris, Un'goro and Silithus. The core horde boyz dealing with all their Wc3 enemies, from the quilboar to the centaur, harpies, rooting out the dissident factions of the Horde (the Burning Blade and Grimtotem clan), then gradually uncovering the threat of the Silithids.

Humans and Dwarves also have cool levelling experiences, the Defias and Dark Iron stuff is noice, and the human zones are nice and interconnected

[LemonDemonGirl]

[Trickster]

I hope no one here is playing this game (official), or spending money every month on a subscription, to feed this woke company. Because you deserved what you tolerate.

[LemonDemonGirl]

[LemonDemonGirl]

I hope no one here is playing this game (official), or spending money every month on a subscription, to feed this woke company. Because you deserved what you tolerate.

I only play on private servers

[TheEmptyRoad]

I really wish I was making this up.

They did it, the bastards ******* did it. I’m…I don’t know if I even want to play with friends on a private server at this point. **** I’m tired.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Let's have a discussion.

How would you rate the WoW villains?

[rusty_shackleford]

They made the warlock pet into a villain?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

They make the warlock pet into a villain?

Yup. The last boss of TWW is going to be Dimensius the All Devouring, who was a Voidwalker elite questing mob in TBC, who destroyed the Ethereal's homeworld. That mob has been retconned into being a fragment of a Void Lord (the higherups behind the old gods C'thun/Yogg-Saron/Y'shaarj/N'zoth). For some reason Ethereals in the upcoming raid are vacuuming up his other fragments and stewing them back into one.

[LemonDemonGirl]

They make the warlock pet into a villain?

Yup. The last boss of TWW is going to be Dimensius the All Devouring, who was a Voidwalker elite questing mob in TBC, who destroyed the Ethereal's homeworld. That mob has been retconned into being a fragment of a Void Lord (the higherups behind the old gods C'thun/Yogg-Saron/Y'shaarj/N'zoth). For some reason Ethereals in the upcoming raid are vacuuming up his other fragments and stewing them back into one.

He's the size of ******* Stormwind

[DagothGeas5]

They make the warlock pet into a villain?

Yup. The last boss of TWW is going to be Dimensius the All Devouring, who was a Voidwalker elite questing mob in TBC, who destroyed the Ethereal's homeworld. That mob has been retconned into being a fragment of a Void Lord (the higherups behind the old gods C'thun/Yogg-Saron/Y'shaarj/N'zoth). For some reason Ethereals in the upcoming raid are vacuuming up his other fragments and stewing them back into one.

I remember the mob version of him! I have to say seeing he is the size of Stormwind made me interested in learning more or even playing whatever expansion explores his character (reminds me of Deathwing's boss fight where the characters are running on him as he flies).
As for the discussion on the villains, I know only those on the upper row, with Garrosh being one I know marginally, and Gul'Dan being one I am loving to see but unsure how he might have been handled wherever it is he appears in.

As for a rating of them, Garrosh would have both a high and low rating just due to how I do not even consider him being a villain for what I recall of the questline, but he had a lot that could be used to make a good enemy for an Alliance player I think, especially if he was kept around (I predominantly play Horde, and my knowledge of the Alliance questlines are very marginal). What I do recall of the Horde's side though from when I did give this expansion a try through private server is that Sylvanas and the whole storyline for the Horde was making me quite annoyed, as if players were being scolded for liking how the Horde is supposed to be/always was type of situation and Garrosh is made into a villain that, instead, every chance I met him I recall liking him as a character and wanted to see more of him for sure.
Next for Deathwing. I quite liked him and had high hopes also upon seeing the trailer and his design, how brutal he looked in a way, but the story felt very cartoonish instead compared to what I was expecting, especially coming from Wrath of the Lich King. It was truly a pity and, though I would love for things to be different, my rating for him as a villain would be very low as he felt almost like a joke or one of those "feel good" stories of anime heroes more than a true calamity, despite all the chaos, the corrupted blood, and all the rest that were around to make it different.
The Lich King I quite liked. Between how one gets crowned, Arthas' story, the fact I play Forsaken and how, though, I am also impacted by nostalgia as it was my first played expansion. I really liked how it truly felt like a siege or a build up to it to go to IceCrown, but he still wouldn't have the highest rating, even if I would give him a high one.
Illidan would be the one with the highest rating for me. Though I did not get the same feeling with the Lich King, going to Outland, all the different cities, his story and the Bloodelves side of it all too, it still felt like quite a ride.

[Finarfin]

GARROSH IS NOT A VILLAIN AND ANYONE WHO SAYS HE IS ,IS ******* GAY.

[buttfucker 3000]

Let's have a discussion.

How would you rate the WoW villains?

I really liked Argus, even though we only see him briefly. He was broken and tortured for a long *** time, and i think Blizzard did a really good job at conveying this with how he speaks. He was CRAZY strong too despite all that. We had the titans at our side, and we wielded some of the most powerful artifacts in the universe. But even then he still manages to kill us. Had Eonar not intervened, that probably would've been gg.

I understand that the titans we had fight alongside us were weakened versions, and had their true forms destroyed a long time ago, but still, very impressive for a newborn titan to just completely ***** us like he did.


Gul'dan is basically the OG incel. Nobody wanted him. After being cast out of his village for being a cripple, and then getting rejected by the elements, he made one final plea to the heavens before giving up. Kil'jaeden answered his call, and the rest is history. Now he's driven by pure hatred and malice.