Should the politics section be locked behind a post count minimum?

[Acrux]

Citizen Kane (boring most of the time and forgettable)

Philistine

[Vergil]

Gone With the Wind (very long and is boring most of the time), Citizen Kane (boring most of the time and forgettable), Apocalypse Now (long, disgusting, is boring most of the time), The Godfather, Deer Hunter, etc

This is so funny because I can only imagine your ideal curriculum would be 90% anime films.

[ArcaneLurker]

But we need to punish people for having bad taste.

viewtopic.php?t=2630-final-fantasy-xi&hilit=FFXI

Academia has ruined reading for modern Americans by forcing people to read a "canon" of stuff that the vast majority of normal people do not enjoy. The Great Gatsby, Brave New World, Frankenstein, Those Who Walk Away from Omelas, etc.

I think there's a big difference there because that's considered necessary education.
If you chose a subject you were interested in, and then you were directed to the "classics," that's a totally different feeling.
I'm not sure how important it is for someone who is learning to write, to read Shakespeare, but it can be an avenue for people to develop an interest in history or theatre productions.
Ultimately, education really is about forcing people to learn stuff though. My approach to Education would be to separate people by their innate capabilities & nature, and develop programs for specific kinds of people, to help cultivate on strengths, without distracting or alienating environments, whilst avoiding wasting other people's time with stuff they'll never enjoy or use.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

With academia and books, there was no actual "education" happening. You are told to write a "book report" ie fill in the questions on the homework paper about what the story is about, who the characters are, regurgitate plot events, talk about "themes" and other fluff. At no point did these college literature or english classes actually talk about techniques that would be actually useful to fiction writers like how the number of subplots affects the book length, consolidating characters, how to compress multiple scenes into one for better efficiency, how to pace events happening every 2 and a half pages to maintain audience interest, how to write fast AND good in one go, etc. At most they just tell you **** like "you have to redraft 10 times before it's good!" which washes out whatever was good and wastes your time when you could have written 10 more books and learned more isntead. Etc.

And for those old movies and games, yes they introduced new techniques for their time, but a lot of those techniques appear in present works. It's not like they are some ancient unicorn you have to go on a safari to go see, when you can see those techniques at home in a work that you will like much more. Being able to kill almost anyone or talk to the bad guy to prematurely skip the game is not exclusive to 1990s CRPGs, and even if it was I don't think people should be "forced" to sit through games that might not appeal to them just to see some tidbits like that. That's why we have internet reviews, to give us a quick rundown on what is worth writing home and save our time.

[ArcaneLurker]

At no point did these college literature or english classes actually talk about techniques that would be actually useful to fiction writers like how the number of subplots affects the book length, consolidating characters, how to compress multiple scenes into one for better efficiency, how to pace events happening every 2 and a half pages to maintain audience interest, how to write fast AND good in one go,

They expect you to infer it from study & mimicry, fostering critical thinking rather than offering all the answers, which only give a surface-level understanding, rather than the deeper understanding from personal study.
This kind of approach has been around since Ancient Greece and was prominent in Medieval Europe. It really does require higher IQ students with a genuine interest though.

And for those old movies and games, yes they introduced new techniques for their time, but a lot of those techniques appear in present works. It's not like they are some ancient unicorn you have to go on a safari to go see, when you can see those techniques at home in a work that you will like much more. Being able to kill almost anyone or talk to the bad guy to prematurely skip the game is not exclusive to 1990s CRPGs, and even if it was I don't think people should be "forced" to sit through games that might not appeal to them just to see some tidbits like that. That's why we have internet reviews, to give us a quick rundown on what is worth writing home and save our time.

I don't think I said anything about forcing people to play all those games mentioned by other people.

[Stack of Turtles]

The main problem I had with the video game curriculum thread is that good video game design is like Zen; it cannot be taught.

You can lead an autist to water, but you cannot make him think, so just hold his head under and save both of you the trouble.

[Tweed]

With academia and books, there was no actual "education" happening. You are told to write a "book report" ie fill in the questions on the homework paper about what the story is about, who the characters are, regurgitate plot events, talk about "themes" and other fluff. At no point did these college literature or english classes actually talk about techniques that would be actually useful to fiction writers like how the number of subplots affects the book length, consolidating characters, how to compress multiple scenes into one for better efficiency, how to pace events happening every 2 and a half pages to maintain audience interest, how to write fast AND good in one go, etc. At most they just tell you **** like "you have to redraft 10 times before it's good!" which washes out whatever was good and wastes your time when you could have written 10 more books and learned more isntead. Etc.

I had some pretty good lit teachers in college who went beyond that when teaching freelance and fiction. The only problem was the class was crowded so there was never enough time for the teacher to focus on every student. A class like that needs to be smaller. One pro of such classes is being forced to edit other people's work and provide feedback. The thing about fiction writing is that it does not improve simply by doing. You can remain a bad writer forever if you do not receive critical feedback and people tend to be very sensitive when it comes to feedback on their work because unlike technical writing, fiction comes directly from the person.

[A Chinese opium den]

Regarding the videogame curriculum thread, I had a reflex reaction against the title and the first line. Academia has ruined reading for modern Americans by forcing people to read a "canon" of stuff that the vast majority of normal people do not enjoy. The Great Gatsby, Brave New World, Frankenstein, Those Who Walk Away from Omelas, etc. The end result is that most people think reading is boring and dully and unenjoyable and then write off the genre. There is also - to a lesser extent - the same thing that happens with film circles, where you are "supposed" to watch all of these "masterpiece" movies like Gone With the Wind (very long and is boring most of the time), Citizen Kane (boring most of the time and forgettable), Apocalypse Now (long, disgusting, is boring most of the time), The Godfather, Deer Hunter, etc. And then even within videogames, there was for many years a "canon" being pushed of "the best games ever that you have to play!" regardless of whether or not they look appealing to you like Xenogears, Chrono Trigger, Shadow of the Colossus, Bioshock, Mass Effect, etc.

Similar to what Vergil said earlier in this thread, I am of the opinion that people can identify what appeals to them, and they should not waste their limited life span slogging through homework just to get fake cred or "education".

Its good to have a set of things you and the people who post with you like, if prospective new posters don't like any of those things they should find somewhere else to post because they don't belong.

[Tangerine]

At no point did these college literature or english classes actually talk about techniques that would be actually useful to fiction writers like how the number of subplots affects the book length, consolidating characters, how to compress multiple scenes into one for better efficiency, how to pace events happening every 2 and a half pages to maintain audience interest, how to write fast AND good in one go, etc.

To get to that point, you first need to know what goes into a story, which is covered by learning how--

what the story is about, who the characters are, regurgitate plot events, talk about "themes"

--go together to make a cohesive whole. You're wanting to turn wrenches before you even know what you're building.

[Tweed]

Some worthless pointers you've probably already heard:

Every good story begins with "And nothing would ever be the same." And ends with "And nothing was ever the same." Unless you're Earnest Hemmingway your story needs to have something major happen.

Understand The Hero's Journey and Freytag's Pyramid and how it applies not just to the story itself, but to every chapter, paragraph, and sentence.

Make the character want something, even as simple as a glass of water. (I think this one comes from Kurt Vonnegut)

All adverbs must fight for their place.

Kill your darlings, no really. Good ideas are often put to death by better ones.

Last of all, use "say." Do not use moan, ejaculate, intrude, explain, etc. Anyone who tells you say is out of style and you need to zazz it up is dead wrong. If your characters are expounding, denouncing, or almost anything else except saying then your reader is stopping because those tags are a distraction. Which doesn't mean you never use another tag, but never replace say for the sake of replacing say.

[Kalarion]

Was this directed to me? I agreed with this.

No, that part was a general observation that I've been mulling over for a couple years now. That's why I added the line break, I wanted to separate the topics without making another post (I really don't like double- or triple+- posting).

[Nooneatall]

I think anyone who posts in the politics thread is a homosexual

[KOS-MOS]

And then even within videogames, there was for many years a "canon" being pushed of "the best games ever that you have to play!" regardless of whether or not they look appealing to you like Xenogears, -.

I feel targeted.

[NotAI]

With academia and books, there was no actual "education" happening. You are told to write a "book report" ie fill in the questions on the homework paper about what the story is about, who the characters are, regurgitate plot events, talk about "themes" and other fluff. At no point did these college literature or english classes actually talk about techniques that would be actually useful to fiction writers like how the number of subplots affects the book length, consolidating characters, how to compress multiple scenes into one for better efficiency, how to pace events happening every 2 and a half pages to maintain audience interest, how to write fast AND good in one go, etc. At most they just tell you **** like "you have to redraft 10 times before it's good!" which washes out whatever was good and wastes your time when you could have written 10 more books and learned more instead. Etc.

Indeed.

As Heinlein said:

Write, don't rewrite, and publish what you write, and move on.

Most humanities classes don't even clarify what's the difference between comedy and tragedy, and how to write one or the other.

Worse, forcing people to write a journal as they read ruins the pacing of a novel. It makes most people hate reading even good books. So now we have a generation of people who can't read and play clickers.

Imagine reading even a comic book, Dragonball, and being forced to write a report on each chapter; you will start to dislike even Dragonball.

Edit. Imagine having to write a blow for blow report on a fight in Dragonball. Ruins everything, doesn't it?

[rusty_shackleford]

Been almost 50/50 split this entire time

[Tweed]

With academia and books, there was no actual "education" happening. You are told to write a "book report" ie fill in the questions on the homework paper about what the story is about, who the characters are, regurgitate plot events, talk about "themes" and other fluff. At no point did these college literature or english classes actually talk about techniques that would be actually useful to fiction writers like how the number of subplots affects the book length, consolidating characters, how to compress multiple scenes into one for better efficiency, how to pace events happening every 2 and a half pages to maintain audience interest, how to write fast AND good in one go, etc. At most they just tell you **** like "you have to redraft 10 times before it's good!" which washes out whatever was good and wastes your time when you could have written 10 more books and learned more instead. Etc.

Indeed.

As Heinlein said:

Write, don't rewrite, and publish what you write, and move on.

Most humanities classes don't even clarify what's the difference between comedy and tragedy, and how to write one or the other.

Worse, forcing people to write a journal as they read ruins the pacing of a novel. It makes most people hate reading even good books. So now we have a generation of people who can't read and play clickers.

Imagine reading even a comic book, Dragonball, and being forced to write a report on each chapter; you will start to dislike even Dragonball.

Edit. Imagine having to write a blow for blow report on a fight in Dragonball. Ruins everything, doesn't it?

This sounds like pure agony, who the **** would force someone to read books this way?

[Tangerine]

With academia and books, there was no actual "education" happening. You are told to write a "book report" ie fill in the questions on the homework paper about what the story is about, who the characters are, regurgitate plot events, talk about "themes" and other fluff. At no point did these college literature or english classes actually talk about techniques that would be actually useful to fiction writers like how the number of subplots affects the book length, consolidating characters, how to compress multiple scenes into one for better efficiency, how to pace events happening every 2 and a half pages to maintain audience interest, how to write fast AND good in one go, etc. At most they just tell you **** like "you have to redraft 10 times before it's good!" which washes out whatever was good and wastes your time when you could have written 10 more books and learned more instead. Etc.

Indeed.

As Heinlein said:

Write, don't rewrite, and publish what you write, and move on.

Most humanities classes don't even clarify what's the difference between comedy and tragedy, and how to write one or the other.

Worse, forcing people to write a journal as they read ruins the pacing of a novel. It makes most people hate reading even good books. So now we have a generation of people who can't read and play clickers.

Imagine reading even a comic book, Dragonball, and being forced to write a report on each chapter; you will start to dislike even Dragonball.

Edit. Imagine having to write a blow for blow report on a fight in Dragonball. Ruins everything, doesn't it?

This sounds like pure agony, who the **** would force someone to read books this way?

Foid teachers.

[WhiteShark]

Last of all, use "say." Do not use moan, ejaculate, intrude, explain, etc. Anyone who tells you say is out of style and you need to zazz it up is dead wrong. If your characters are expounding, denouncing, or almost anything else except saying then your reader is stopping because those tags are a distraction. Which doesn't mean you never use another tag, but never replace say for the sake of replacing say.

Interestingly, perhaps as the logical conclusion of this minimalist principle, Japanese novels almost never directly state who said what. The author is supposed to write the dialogue in such a way that the reader can easily infer who is speaking. This is, of course, much easier in Japanese owing to its wide variety of first person pronouns, verb forms corresponding to different levels of politeness, and sentence-ending particles.

---

@NotAI, what do you think of How to Read a Book?

[asf]

weebs dont count

[WhiteShark]

weebs dont count

I didn't vote. I agree with @Kalarion. The accounts which were presumably the impetus for the thread should simply be terminated with prejudice. Something could be added to the rules to that effect, but it would obviously be a more subjective standard than most of them.

[Tweed]

The accounts which were presumably the impetus for the thread should simply be terminated with prejudice.

[KOS-MOS]

weebs dont count

weeb discrimination, let me talk about you to my friends on reddit

whait I have no friends

[DemoGraph]

whait I have no friends

I can be your friend. Go read my LP.

[orinEsque]

weebs dont count

weeb discrimination, let me talk about you to my friends on reddit

whait I have no friends

I don't own any figurines or merchandise, but i do keep up with every anime season and watch the ones that best suit my taste. To some that's a weeb.

Welcome to the club

[NotAI]

@NotAI, what do you think of How to Read a Book?

Adler had some good points in the second edition * but the book was heavily misunderstood and misapplied by teachers. It actually made the literacy situation much worse than it ever was.

The recommendation that the reader make a lot of notes, including summaries of meaning, is sometimes good, but usually very bad. Why?

It destroys the pacing. The thing is, meaning is a simulation of a story of means and ends expanding in the mind. Exactly the same as a film or a game or daydreaming. Too slow and nothing appears in the mind. With the pacing shot and gone, the reader simply loses interest and won't put in further work. The reader will skim and miss details. Unable to proceed further, he stops. Without work, and always stopping too early, the reader doesn't read enough books in total to build up a vocabulary and speed. Without speed and vocabulary, the meaning of most texts is both inaccessible and boring again, which leads to a downward spiral.

Give it a few decades and here's the result:



* Yes, there are indeed several different levels of reading a book and grokking it. The highest level indeed is being able to notice what is original and unique in the text and what is not, and further, the relation of the text to other texts. This is necessary for reading scientific works and enjoying some stories and novels.

The simple issue is that reading must be fun. When it is fun, the reader will read a lot. Having read a lot of other things, the meaning of any given text is much easier to obtain. When it is obtained easily and quickly, the reader experiences good pacing, and can experiences the story in his mind. So he reads another book and then another, which makes further reading easier, an upward spiral.

A highly literate reader can take notes to help remember something or come back to something, simply because his reading speed is already so fast that it costs almost nothing to do it. Further, he has such a large semantic network in his head, that these notes are relatively few and far between, and if made, are significant. They do not produce boredom and cessation of reading. However, forcing people who have not read much yet to makes notes on every page or two is a masterful way of causing widespread illiteracy, and that's what there is.

Behaviorism ended when behaviorism itself revealed the importance of motivation for experience and experience for motivation.

► Show Spoiler

This is another substack article now isn't it?

[AmericanMonarchist]

I voted no because we have a good aristocracy in place so the rule would be redundant. When you put rules on paper people follow the letter of the rule rather than the spirit. If we require a post count then bad actors will just create low quality posts and we are at the same dilemma of having bad apples only with the added headache for new members. What we really need, and have in Rusty, is a good gardener capable of looking at the garden and telling at sight who is a weed to be plucked and who is a flower to be allowed to grow. It is work but heavy is head that wears the crown.

[methoxetamine]

Have we considered a post count maximum instead? Must be below 10k?

[rusty_shackleford]

Have we considered a post count maximum instead? Must be below 10k?

I will cease posting immediately

[Statesman]

Have we considered a post count maximum instead? Must be below 10k?

Made pointless by alts.

[Tangerine]

Have we considered a post count maximum instead? Must be below 10k?

Made pointless by alts.

Allow alts, but you get banned if anyone convincingly puts 2 + 2 together.