Meaningful choices at character creation

[Norfleet]

It was actually more common to see experimentation in this sort of stuff years ago compared to now where people just bandwagon what everyone else does.
e.g., Aleshar(1997)

This statsheet just makes no sense. Professional hunter. Does not actually know how to use any weapon to hunt with.

[rusty_shackleford]

It was actually more common to see experimentation in this sort of stuff years ago compared to now where people just bandwagon what everyone else does.
e.g., Aleshar(1997)

This statsheet just makes no sense. Professional hunter. Does not actually know how to use any weapon to hunt with.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapping

[Stack of Turtles]

It was actually more common to see experimentation in this sort of stuff years ago compared to now where people just bandwagon what everyone else does.
e.g., Aleshar(1997)

This statsheet just makes no sense. Professional hunter. Does not actually know how to use any weapon to hunt with.

He's really good at finding animals, but he doesn't know what to do with them when he finds them.

[Norfleet]

It was actually more common to see experimentation in this sort of stuff years ago compared to now where people just bandwagon what everyone else does.
e.g., Aleshar(1997)

This statsheet just makes no sense. Professional hunter. Does not actually know how to use any weapon to hunt with.

He's really good at finding animals, but he doesn't know what to do with them when he finds them.

For that matter, why is there a separate "hunting" skill at all, given that you already have TRACKING (find your prey), and SNEAK (get close to them without being detected), as well as WEAPONS (make the kill)?

[Norfleet]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapping

But that's a very separate thing from HUNTING. Why is it not simply called that, and used for TRAPPING, and thus for dealing with traps, then?

[rusty_shackleford]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trapping

But that's a very separate thing from HUNTING. Why is it not simply called that, and used for TRAPPING, and thus for dealing with traps, then?

This statsheet just makes no sense. Professional hunter. Does not actually know how to use any weapon to hunt with.

He's really good at finding animals, but he doesn't know what to do with them when he finds them.

For that matter, why is there a separate "hunting" skill at all, given that you already have TRACKING (find your prey), and SNEAK (get close to them without being detected), as well as WEAPONS (make the kill)?

I'd suggest contacting the developer and asking

[rusty_shackleford]

What's maningful mean?

How the **** did I not notice it said "maningful" until now?

[Vergil]

What's maningful mean?

How the **** did I not notice it said "maningful" until now?

Holy **** xD

[Val the Moofia Boss]

But gameplay-wise, it's not a fun execution, it's ultimately about repetition & grinding no matter what.

Minmaxxing IVs and EVs only became relevant in the DS era when you could go to the Pokemon website and signup for those online monthly ranked seasons, and it has more to do with the battle system which is by default a series of 1v1s, sometimes 2v2s but 1v1 is how it usually plays. If you want to join the tournament with your favorite Pokemon and the moves you find the most satisfying (rather than just picking from some Smogon tierlist), then minmaxxing IVs and EVs is the only real way you can increase your chances of winning the battles and getting a higher placing on the ladder. I wasted too much time on a bike riding back and forth trying to hatch eggs and hoping I got the right nature and trying to crossbreed abilities to get my favorite Pokemon designs ready for competitive.

[Havitner]

But gameplay-wise, it's not a fun execution, it's ultimately about repetition & grinding no matter what.

Minmaxxing IVs and EVs only became relevant in the DS era when you could go to the Pokemon website and signup for those online monthly ranked seasons, and it has more to do with the battle system which is by default a series of 1v1s, sometimes 2v2s but 1v1 is how it usually plays. If you want to join the tournament with your favorite Pokemon and the moves you find the most satisfying (rather than just picking from some Smogon tierlist), then minmaxxing IVs and EVs is the only real way you can increase your chances of winning the battles and getting a higher placing on the ladder. I wasted too much time on a bike riding back and forth trying to hatch eggs and hoping I got the right nature and trying to crossbreed abilities to get my favorite Pokemon designs ready for competitive.

The newer gens have all sorts of QoL features to overwrite IVs, natures, and abilities with the optimal values. Kind of undermines the whole system if you ask me, but I guess if you're going to encourage competitive play you can't force people to grind for days weeks months to get pokemon with semi-optimal individual stats.

Now increasing the shiny odds above the objectively correct value of 8192 as bestowed upon us by St. Genthree, that was some ********.

[rusty_shackleford]

Original design for Fallout 3(NOT bethout) would allow you to control companions depending on your charisma(maybe a perk? idk)
Sawyer discussed it on the old …interplay? forums

Was meant to help facilitate charisma builds, and plays into the whole "leader telling his team what to do"

@Roguey might know more

It was the persuasion skill https://www.nma-fallout.com/threads/saw ... ack.151853

Persuasion: This skill is the other half of what Speech encompassed. It is used for friendly diplomacy, subtle manipulation, and outright intimidation. Also, as previously discussed, I believe it could be used to good effect for attempting to control CNPCs (companion NPCs) during combat. Though CNPCs would be computer-controlled by default, I believe that giving the high-Persuasion character a chance to control their followers is sensible and good for the purposes of expanding Persuasion's usefulness throughout the game.

NOTE: CNPCs SHOULD STILL HAVE IMPROVED AI. IN FACT, IT SHOULD BE MUCH BETTER THAN FO AND FO2. THIS IS NOT INTENDED AS A SUBSTITUTION FOR GOOD AI, SIMPLY AS A WAY TO REWARD CHARISMA BOYS FOR A HIGH PERSUASION SKILL.

Some CNPCs are really agreeable, and some are belligerent jackasses who don't listen to anything. Some also go crazy when they see certain types of creatures or otherwise are annoyed by local behavior. A wounded CNPC can also be extremely difficult to control, as their life tends to take precedence over your desire to be a big winner. Persuasion can be used to offset a CNPC's tendencies to do exactly what they want, when they want. The higher the Persuasion, the more likely it is that the CNPC will allow the player to control them, even under duress.

Sample Persuasion perk:

Suicide King
Prerequisites: Persuasion 150 and CH 8
Ranks: 1
Benefit: When standing within your area of influence, CNPC allies always ignore how wounded they are when you attempt to control them in combat.

E.g.: Ted and Destructo are fighting deathclaws. Destructo's got nothing against deathclaws, but he isn't too fond of the gaping wound that's left him with 28/100 hit points. Normally, he would head for the hills, even if his enemy was pretty wounded. However, Ted's a Suicide King, so Destructo knows that his pal will get him out of this mess somehow if he just follows his lead. (i.e., Destructo ignores his wounds for purposes of comparsion to Ted's Persuasion). Ted exercises manual control over Destructo. He has him attack the deathclaw, killing it, then has Destructo move down next to Ted. On Ted's next turn, Ted uses a Super Stim on Destructo, and everyone is happy until the other three deathclaws get in melee range.

Something about having to pick charisma then the speech skill just feels off to me.

I have more thoughts on this that I will think upon before posting

[gerey]

TRVE simulationist RPG would hide the numbers, not show them, by the way. Showing raw numbers is inherently gamist.

It's really not. The human anatomy, and the biological components it is made of, have well-understood biomechanical limits. No matter what kind of freak of nature you are there is an upper limit to what the human body can do before the base components start to break down.

We can even measure this IRL, so there's not much difference between saying a character can lift 180 kg and saying he has a STR of 10?

I guess a more realistic way of handling this would be saying that a character with a STR 10 has the potential to build up his strength to do something like that, but on the other hand that's needlessly overcomplicating the matter when it can be inferred that a character with STR of 10 has already gone through the necessary training.

It was actually more common to see experimentation in this sort of stuff years ago compared to now where people just bandwagon what everyone else does.

You don't need numbers IRL because you can feel your body, and it will tell you if what you're trying to do is actually possible. You don't have that luxury in games, hence the number crunching.

Though, realistically, numbers are being crunched in reality too, since you can calculate what a person can reasonably do, in the physical sense, with enough data.

[Tangerine]

since you can calculate what a person can reasonably do, in the physical sense, with enough data.

Sports stats.

[gerey]

Something about having to pick charisma then the speech skill just feels off to me.

I've made a whole thread about the Speech skill, and it has always bothered me how so many games treat it like an automatic "I WIN" button, almost never having any negative consequences or drawbacks.

One solution I found acceptabl was to replace it with other skills like Intimidation or Seduction that are based on other aspects. As an example, Intimidation would be based off some of your attributes and stats, reputation, equipment etc.

Another way would be to define Speech as the ability to articulate what you're trying to say, basically having the oratory skill to present your argument succinctly, and to nearly always combine Speech with some other skill, attribute or knowledge you learned on your travels, similarly to how the dialogue with the Master in FO1 was handled - you need high INT, to have found evidence about the infertility and a high enough Speech skill to articulate what you're saying. Ideally, I would have thrown in a requirement for a high Medical skillcheck too.

Charisma should be understood as a combination of physical attractiveness, presence and social magnetism, and it should be the primary attribute that governs positive social interactions and convincing people to do what you want them to do, without resorting to threats, violence, bribery et al. I am very much against having a skill that lets you tell people what they should do.

[rusty_shackleford]

Can someone give me an example of a person with hypothetically, high charisma and low speech?
I'm sure it exists but it's such a niche archetype to the point where you have to ask where the separation actually exists, and which one should be the dependent

[gerey]

Can someone give me an example of a person with hypothetically, high charisma and low speech?

Attractive woman. She doesn't need to be eloquent or articulate, just be able to wield her "assets" well.

Alternatively, someone that is obviously rich or well-connected. Think the inbred noble archetype, people will still trying to please him because he has money and clout.

[Oyster Sauce]

Can someone give me an example of a person with hypothetically, high charisma and low speech?
I'm sure it exists but it's such a niche archetype to the point where you have to ask where the separation actually exists, and which one should be the dependent

Goofy ESLs

[Norfleet]

Can someone give me an example of a person with hypothetically, high charisma and low speech?

The strong, silent type? Or maybe the Avatar from the older Ultima games. Dude only ever speaks in single words. Name! Job! Quest!

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

Can someone give me an example of a person with hypothetically, high charisma and low speech?
I'm sure it exists but it's such a niche archetype to the point where you have to ask where the separation actually exists, and which one should be the dependent

Goofy ESLs

I would find it endearing if he wasn’t such a hack.

[Tangerine]

Can someone give me an example of a person with hypothetically, high charisma and low speech?
I'm sure it exists but it's such a niche archetype to the point where you have to ask where the separation actually exists, and which one should be the dependent

Forrest Gump.

[Eyestabber]

Holy ****. Normally I would be upset at a thread devolving into a discussion about **** cartoon games for toddlers, but this one is SO BAD that such derailing was actually an improvement.


Strength: 10


Strength: 9


Intelligence: 10


Dexterity: 10

And so on. This is somehow very confusing to Rusty.

[J1M]

Holy ****. Normally I would be upset at a thread devolving into a discussion about **** cartoon games for toddlers, but this one is SO BAD that such derailing was actually an improvement.


Strength: 10


Dexterity: 10

And so on. This is somehow very confusing to Rusty.

And... you think the guy would be great at sword fighting and the girl would be amazing at shooting guns?

[Acrux]

Holy ****. Normally I would be upset at a thread devolving into a discussion about **** cartoon games for toddlers, but this one is SO BAD that such derailing was actually an improvement.


Strength: 10


Dexterity: 10

And so on. This is somehow very confusing to Rusty.

And... you think the guy would be great at sword fighting and the girl would be amazing at shooting guns?

Perception is a better stat for shooting anyway.

[Eyestabber]

Holy ****. Normally I would be upset at a thread devolving into a discussion about **** cartoon games for toddlers, but this one is SO BAD that such derailing was actually an improvement.


Strength: 10


Dexterity: 10

And so on. This is somehow very confusing to Rusty.

And... you think the guy would be great at sword fighting and the girl would be amazing at shooting guns?

As far as his ability to use the sword as a force multiplier? YES, absolutely. The second part is a valid criticism of "Dexterity", a stat I have ALWAYS had issue with. I believe in separation between hand-to-eye coordination and agility. Underrail, Wasteland 2, CSG, many games grasp that distinction.

[J1M]

He'd be good at smashing open a door or hauling a pack, but he would suck at combat involving weapons. Slow and dead.

[TKVNC]

He'd be good at smashing open a door or hauling a pack, but he would suck at combat involving weapons. Slow and dead.

I don't think you realise that muscles don't slow you down.

Quite the contrary, in fact. Perhaps Eddie Hall isn't as fast as Justin Gatlin, but he certainly isn't slow.

It's always interesting to see how little people know about the human body. Life is in fact not a video game made by losers who can't even lift a 45lb plate.

[J1M]

He'd be good at smashing open a door or hauling a pack, but he would suck at combat involving weapons. Slow and dead.

I don't think you realise that muscles don't slow you down.

Quite the contrary, in fact. Perhaps Eddie Hall isn't as fast as Justin Gatlin, but he certainly isn't slow.

It's always interesting to see how little people know about the human body. Life is in fact not a video game made by losers who can't even lift a 45lb plate.

Range of movement. Momentum.

[Tweed]

Time to mention Underrail again. The most meaningful choices in the game happen at character creation and not only decide how you play, but what content you get to experience. The best kind of choice and consquence.

[TKVNC]

He'd be good at smashing open a door or hauling a pack, but he would suck at combat involving weapons. Slow and dead.

I don't think you realise that muscles don't slow you down.

Quite the contrary, in fact. Perhaps Eddie Hall isn't as fast as Justin Gatlin, but he certainly isn't slow.

It's always interesting to see how little people know about the human body. Life is in fact not a video game made by losers who can't even lift a 45lb plate.

Range of movement. Momentum.

I fail to see how that matters? Someone the size of Eddie Hall will have way more momentum than someone lesser size. It's the entire reason weight classes exist in fighting sports.

I don't think you know what range of movement actually means. People like Brock Lesnar, or Bas Ruten had as much range of movement as people who are bantam weight.

I'm being sincere - I don't think you know what fighting actually looks like.

[J1M]

I don't think you realise that muscles don't slow you down.

Quite the contrary, in fact. Perhaps Eddie Hall isn't as fast as Justin Gatlin, but he certainly isn't slow.

It's always interesting to see how little people know about the human body. Life is in fact not a video game made by losers who can't even lift a 45lb plate.

Range of movement. Momentum.

I fail to see how that matters? Someone the size of Eddie Hall will have way more momentum than someone lesser size. It's the entire reason weight classes exist in fighting sports.

I don't think you know what range of movement actually means. People like Brock Lesnar, or Bas Ruten had as much range of movement as people who are bantam weight.

I'm being sincere - I don't think you know what fighting actually looks like.

I don't know who those people are. I was commenting on your picture, which is "strongest man body type".

You were making a point that it is obvious what someone is good at from these stats. I was simply disagreeing with that. Reality and games have diverged, so even if everyone makes reasonable assumptions some players are going to be confused without additional information.

Classic example would be a longbow. In real life you need strength, not dexterous fingers, to aim and use it effectively. And there's no reason to assume that more dexterity would make a bow deal more damage. It would be just as reasonable for someone to think INT would enhance bow damage because you could enchant the arrows or adjust the draw weight for conditions or something.