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Val the Moofia Boss
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Post by Val the Moofia Boss »

I have completely finished Sakura Wars 2: Thou Shalt Not Die

I always underestimate the length of these final acts.

On approach to the floating fortress of doom, our airship is assailed by armies of robotically enhanced demons. We kill off some bosses (again). The big bad rants incoherently. We have a four phase final boss battle. We get a bittersweet epilogue that sets up the next two games. Also, some bonus Reni stuff.

(EDIT: reduced the size of the imgur pictures in the chapter thoughts)

Chapter 11
► Show Spoiler


Chapter 12 final dungeon and final boss
► Show Spoiler

Chapter 13 epilogue and setup for SW3
► Show Spoiler

Bonus Reni timeline
► Show Spoiler

Now to wait for the fan translation patches for 3 and 4. How many years will it take to see the conclusion to the story?




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Sakura Wars 2: Thou Shalt Not Die review

Overall a very good game. Like with Trails Through Daybreak 2, I found this more enjoyable to play than a $100,000,000+ FF7 Remake game, pausing my slow slog through Rebirth to consume this.


Story and Characters

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The game takes place in an alternate fantasy 1926 Taisho era Japan. In this world, Japan is seemingly not currently involved in any foreign conflicts, nobody mentions the emperor, and steampunk/magitek technology is being researched. A few rare individual are born with spirit powers, and monstrous demons prey upon humanity. You play as naval ensign Ichiro Ogami, a young man blessed with spirit powers, who is assigned to lead a squad of mech pilots called the Flower Division using their spirit powers to fuel the mechs. Apparently young men with spirit powers are in short supply, so the rest of your squad are young ladies with spirit powers, many of whom are foreigners. The Flower Division is based in a theater, and when they are not fighting they are instead rehearsing for their next play. The game is broken into a chapter format, where the first half of each chapter has you walking around the theater during the day and the night seeing various skits and subplots advance. Then half way through, the bad guys start plotting and the second half is about fighting evil. Rinse repeat for a dozen chapters or so.

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The slice of life skits really make the characters feel real, and the game is able to build drama and suspense via character stories and relationships without having to resort to cheap end of the world plots. Unfortunately, there were a couple of hiccups. Kohran's sudden unearned angsting in chapter 4, and a sudden a rehash of a Sakura centric story connected to the Anti-Kouma Corps from the prior game. SW2 goes to greater lengths to flesh out its world than the prior game did, but it feels odd that the aftermath of large scale events that happen later on is not explored.

Sakura Wars has a heavy emphasis on romance. SW2 to me feels very notable in how not only can you carry your romance over from the prior game (usually in any serialized RPG series, optional romances are either reset or only one of the options are canonized. The 13 game long Trails series is a notorious offender), but you get many scenes with your love woven throughout the entirety of the game (as opposed to just getting a small handful of token scenes, if at all). In the first game I chose Sumire, who I carried over into this game. Though the series is named Sakura Wars and the big girl featured in the center of the promotional material is named Sakura, I have never felt that I was "supposed" to have picked Sakura, and this game made me chosen love Sumire feel like the main heroine. (A common complaint amongst JRPG fans is that if the game allows you to pick different heroines than the poster girl, the main poster girl gets so emphasis that you feel like you were supposed to have picked her from the get go). So SW2 feels pretty exceptional here.

Another thing too is that the romance starts from minute 1, as opposed to most other JRPGs and VNs where it doesn't really start kicking in until the latter portion. So you actually get to see the characters be together rather than in an ending CG. Well, not quite. SW2 takes place over a full year, and by the end of SW2, Ogami and Sumire had been going out for... what? Two years since she began warming up to him half way through SW1? At this point there should be talk about getting married. Maybe that's why SW2 has the conclusion it does, to keep you looking forward to the ending in SW4.

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Walking with Sumire in the second half of the first game.

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Carrying on my SW1 choice into SW2, I was immediately reunited with Sumire from the very first scene, and she got scenes all throughout. Not sidelined, resetted, or forgotten.


As with the prior game (and the JRPG/VN genre as a whole usually), the characters were very likeable, and most of them feel like they really inhabit the world they exist in. The game not only carries over the characters from the first game, but also introduces several new likeable characters:
  • Orihime on paper feels like a rehash of Sumire from early SW1, being a young noble lady showing off her cleavage who is standoffish towards the MC, but Orihime's voice actor does a good job making her sound different, and they ultimately wind up having different stories and feeling like different people. It helps that Sumire in SW2 is pretty patient and caring.
  • The stoic tomboy Reni very much helps round up the team, gives Ogami a dependable comrade as well as someone to tutor, and also gives Iris another character to bond with besides Ogami.
  • Kayama (who you may know from SW5) is introduced here as a slightly dorky but still dependable ally, though the dangerous and alienating nature of his job as a spy is glossed over. Image
  • Deputy Commander Ayame from the first game gets brought back as her cousin Kaede, a little unfortunate that there was no originality here but at least she is pleasant.
  • The trio of flamboyant gays now living in the basement are sometimes funny, but quickly wind up becoming one note. Only a couple times did it feel like they were actually useful.
  • The fill-in gift shop attendant of Tsubomi is mostly there to make the world feel larger and introduce us to the offscreen Maidens' Academy.
  • Minister of the navy Yamaguchi is introduced and has not done anything yet, so maybe he will wind up being important in SW4.
  • You may meet relatives of who you romance. I romanced Sumire, and her family were not particularly fleshed out but given dimension to the world.
While the cast of the prior game are present, fans of Kohran and Maria might be disappointed, as they do not get much focus or get to show off what was unique about them. Kohran still feels a little fake, as if she isn't a person inhabiting the world like the others and is just a funny cartoon engineer/technobabbler. Maria however feels like she doesn't get a chance to shine. In the first game she was the secondary team leader, and also shot a villain and IIRC kicked his body off the roof. But in this game you don't see her lead (even in the two missions where the team splits up), and she doesn't get to shoot anybody.

While a year has passed and the team are now true comrades with each other, I do miss that it is overall not possible to step on anyone's toes in SW2 (aside from Orihime, who is ****** at you no matter what you do for the first 20 hours). You spent most of the first game with Sumire being a little bitchy, a lot of options could cause Sakura to diss you, and Maria wasn't trusting of you. There was also a part where you could eavesdrop on Kanna talking to Maria, and then Kanna opens the door and sees you there and gets ******. So you had to consider what you were doing and how people would react. But in SW2, you can do almost anything and never really antagonize anyone. Maria is now the only character left who can step on your toes if you say certain things (pressing Ogami when he lets slip that he was underwater right after the hot springs segment, or Maria catching you reading a pickup artist guide in the library, or if you knock on her door at night).

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As for the best characters, I thought Commander Yoneda stuck out a lot. You do you feel he is on your side, but he is also able to put his foot down. He strikes a good balance between joviality, friendliness, and seriousness. Iris, Reni, and Kanna feel well realized. And also Sumire too, but I romanced her so her extra scenes and that added context might have changed my perception of her.

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As for the villains, they are a mixed bag. The Demon King and the Five Elements do an okay job as fodder villains for most of the runtime. Mokojiki and Kasha are probably the most unidimensional and boring. The rest of the Five Elements - Kongou, Tsuchigumo, Suiko, and the Demon King - feel more two dimensional and mildly threatening, given that they come up with more subtle plans to defeat the heroes such as trying to deprive them of funding, infiltrating them, or ambushing them while out on vacation. However, as usual the villains overall are never seen operating together, and are each fought separately. We get one scene where Kongou is trying to radio Saki and send her reinforcements. It would be nice to have seen more coordination like this.

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Unfortunately, the final villain, Army Minister Kyogoku, was a real disappointment. With him being a human and a military higher up, I expected that he would have much more depth than the cartoonish kill/conquer everyone blah blah characterization that most of the demon villains in this series have. And his motivations are incoherent, which makes him worse than many of the fodder chapter villains. Another issue is not just the writing, but also the voice direction. We have also had several generic "kill/conquer everyone" demon villains in this franchise, but the ones that stand out do so because of their voice actors, either by making them feel passionate and thus threatening (Kasha from this game, Ranmaru from SW5), or by making them feel more like real people (Kongou and Tsuchigumo from this game), or by giving them the idea that there might be depth or charisma to them (Demon King from this game, Oda Nobunaga from SW5).

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Army Minister Kyogoku

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(Oda Nobunaga from Sakura Wars V)


He also felt like a missed opportunity, because typically military or government characters in fiction tend to be able to be more threatening onscreen than the generic evils, as they can wield their authority to successfully impede, defame, or dispossess the heroes. You often see this in superhero stories and in Korean Dramas. Dolores Umbridge. Etc. Army Minister Kyogoku could have easily been that. His introductory scene created tension because he was a higher up and our heroes were on his shitlist who were afraid to retaliate against him after he mocked Sakura's father.

In spite of the disappointing final villain, the game still manages to have a memorable ending. Ogami is in the springtime of love when he gets sent overseas by the navy, leading into the next game set in Paris, before his return to Japan in SW4. I wonder if the devs had planned that far ahead. I am looking forward to seeing the reunion in SW4... when that gets fan translated.

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Gameplay

The highlight of the franchise's gameplay is how it uses interactivity and timed dialogue windows to make the visual novel segments more engaging. Hearing the timer beeping and seeing the gauge run out, and the risk of making a bad choice that lowers myself in the eyes of the characters made me sit up in my chair and pay attention. Letting the timer run out and remaining silent may also be a good or bad option too. Long timers are also sparingly used to great effect to elevate the tension in climatic negotiations, or to heighten the temptation of doing something like reading a person's private diary that was sitting on the table while you heard the beeping noise.


SW2 introduces a mechanic where the dialogue options available can change if you wait long enough. Early on, the game tutorializes to you that this might be a bad thing to wait and that characters might react negatively if they think you are slow. However, this idea is quickly forgotten, and you almost always want to wait to see if more dialogue options appear. You can almost never wait too long and then have to pick a bad option.

There are other miscellaneous uses of interactivity. You don't just enter someone's room, but instead start outside their door and then have to knock on it and hear if they are there. There might be timed conversations during battle where you need to recall the color of a ribbon a girl heard earlier that day to give her a moral boost (or, if you fail, give her a stat debuff). There is a newly added radio where you have to turn the knob to tune into people's specific number to be able to contact them. Etc. These little details help make the world feel more immersive.

The other thing Sakura Wars does is have timed adventure segments where you can wander around the theater (or in SW5's case, different streets in New York), and time will advance by 10 minutes for each room you visit, characters move around if enough time passes, and you only have so much time per night. There is no icon labelling who is in what room before you enter it, so you have to be paying attention to what is going on in the story and use some predictive thinking to find the people you are looking for. If it is day time and a play is coming up, then characters might be practicing on stage or be in the dressing room. If it is night time then people might be in their rooms. Kohran loves engineering and is often down in the hangar. Sometimes people are in the courtyard or on the balcony. Etc.

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However, there are a lot of rooms in the theater, and many of them go unused for most if not the entire game. For example, the theater's underground infirmary, storeroom, and swimming pool, or the VIP entrance, or the 1st floor and 2nd floor seating. Orhihime visits the attic often at the start of the game but then stops going there. I guess these places exist to help build out the theater and make it feel more like a real place, but it is strange that you can waste time each day and night checking out these places and never finding anyone there. I think SW5 wound up having the better idea of moving most the explorable areas out of the theater and into various NYC streets, so there is almost always something happening in each area and you didn't waste time checking it out.

Lastly, there are the SRPG missions where you control a squad of mechs, starting with 4 people and then gradually reaching a full size of 9 characters on the field at once by the half way point. The scenarios usually have you do something in addition to fighting enemies, such as destroying pillars before time runs out or defending something. As with SW1, the lack of difficulty is my biggest disappointment. I ran through the whole game with the team set to the wind strategy for maximum movement speed and the fire strategy which lowered defense to raise attack power. I would get greedy and not use the defense command and endanger my people, and yet never once was I ever punished and lost anyone. Sakura Wars V was by no means a hardcore game, but at least there you could not be reckless, and I did lose people in one mission.

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Aesthetics

The game looks great, from the UI wallpapers, to the scene backgrounds, to the character portraits, to the CG inserts be they illustrations or CGI renders of cool mechs. As for mech designs, I particularly liked Reni's Eisenkleid and the Demon King's Dark Kamui. If there is anything lacking, it might be that most of the character's ultimate ability cutscenes aren't that exciting compared to modern ultimate ability cutscenes, but they are still novel. The SRPG environment backgrounds aren't on the same level as contemporary JRPGs on the PS1 that had pre-rendered backgrounds.

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I think it is a shame that most of the villains' mechs aside from the Demon King's did not get shown off well in 3D CGI cutscenes or prerendered still. The in-engine cutscene models used for ultimate abilities paled in comparison to their CGI renders. What is baffling is that when looking through the artbook for SW2, Kasha's unique mech Goko was not used ingame, even though it had a high poly 3D CGI render! Ingame, he gets a red red recolor of Mokujiki's green Chiken. Why would the devs create a unique CGI model for Kasha, only to then not take pictures of it and implement it as sprites and implement a low poly version of his model?

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Kasha was ROBBED


It was a little underwhelming that the heroes did not get any new Thunderbirds vehicles. It's the same Thunderstrike train, Flying Whale airship, and supersized airship Mikasa from the prior game.

Kohei Tanaka (who you may know as a composer for One Piece) provided great music that still holds up. Often a thing you see with these older JRPG/VN tracks is that a lot of tracks were - or have since become - rather "stereotypical". But SW's songs are still refreshing almost thirty years later and don't sound samey. The songs also have variety within themselves, and do not get boring to listen to over and over. However, there was not enough different cutscene music. I would often find myself humming the song that I predicted would play next, and was usually right.







Overall a very good game. Recommended. Play SW1 first, though. Or play SW5, which is a standalone story, and has more challenging missions.
Last edited by Val the Moofia Boss on May 12th, 2025, 19:18, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by J1M »

Stopped playing CrossCode. Game is simply too long.
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Post by methoxetamine »

I just finished Lost Judgment and it's DLC, The Kaito Files. It was really good but the story had some flaws just like every Yakuza game, but it had probably the best combat in the series and overall was one of the best entries in the franchise. Sad there will most likely never be another Judgment entry due to some ******** with Yagami's actors agency or wife or something, apparently the agency made the game stay console exclusive for a while so that a game with his likeness couldn't be modded. Japs are genuinely ****** in the head and 2 nukes was not nearly enough.

I started Pirate Yakuza in Hawaii, I'm not really excited for it and don't have high hopes but it'll be my last hurrah with RGG for now so I'm sure I'll still have fun.

I'm also getting pretty far in SMT4 on 3DS, though this game has the most dogshit difficulty curve I've ever seen. It was one of the toughest and most punishing games I've played for the first handful of hours, I was sweating my *** off and saving after every single trash fight. Now I can't even remember the last time I died and I one shot every single trash demon in one attack, I'm just rushing through the rest of the story and excited to move onto 4 Apocalypse since I've heard it fixes this problem and the gameplay is just improved in general

Next on my list is Octopath 2 before Stellar Blade (white men version) comes out
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Post by Roguey »

Finished with Limbus Company. Didn't care all that much for the writing, I found all the on-the-nose literary references annoying. There seems to be a South Korean fixation for RPGs with complex plots with tons of characters and loads and loads of systems to have to manage given the similarities this has with Troubleshooter. It was tolerable enough as a timesink until I got to the chapter 2 boss, where it expects you to kill multiple waves of enemies who all attack twice per round (so some of your characters will take damage no matter what) within 4 rounds each or you get insta-killed. Looking at this reddit thread, a lot of other people ******* hate this thing too. Not going to waste any more time on it.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Roguey wrote: May 14th, 2025, 19:11
with complex plots
Roguey wrote: May 14th, 2025, 19:11
similarities this has with Troubleshooter
?
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Post by Roguey »

rusty_shackleford wrote: May 14th, 2025, 19:12
Roguey wrote: May 14th, 2025, 19:11
with complex plots
Roguey wrote: May 14th, 2025, 19:11
similarities this has with Troubleshooter
?
You need a flowchart to get a full comprehension of Troubleshooter's story given all the characters involved and the relationships they have to one other and all the various groups. Perhaps "convoluted" would be a better word to describe it.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Roguey wrote: May 14th, 2025, 19:14
rusty_shackleford wrote: May 14th, 2025, 19:12
Roguey wrote: May 14th, 2025, 19:11
with complex plots
Roguey wrote: May 14th, 2025, 19:11
similarities this has with Troubleshooter
?
You need a flowchart to get a full comprehension of Troubleshooter's story given all the characters involved and the relationships they have to one other and all the various groups. Perhaps "convoluted" would be a better word to describe it.
LE… SPOOOOONNNN!
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Post by Roguey »

rusty_shackleford wrote: May 14th, 2025, 19:14
LE… SPOOOOONNNN!
Korean cults are kooky, yes.
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Post by methoxetamine »

Finished Pirate Yakuza, maybe it's because my expectations were low but I really enjoyed it for what it is. It's one of the weakest entries in the series but it was still a lot of fun. If the last Gaiden/side-game (The Man Who Erased His Name) wasn't arguably my favorite game in the entire series I could cut it more slack but because of that I have to rate it like a normal entry. The ship combat was mediocre and got old after a while, but the normal combat was some of the best in the series and really carried the game hard. The substories were great as well

Also finished SMT4 which ended up being really disappointing. Trying to decide what to play next on 3DS, I was going to play SMT 4A but I might play an Etrian Odyssey game or Devil Survivor Overclocked

Started Octopath Traveler 2 and it's great so far, though I've only met half of the characters
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Post by SpellSword »

I've been fighting my way through Wizardry: Labyrinth of Lost Souls. (The PC version. From what I've read it seems to be a port of the PS3 version with all the DLC dungeons.) Not sure how it stacks up against the main series as this was the first Wizardry game I've played. A bit of a mixed bag, parts of it are good... but some of the quest's designs are both frustrating and lack significance.

Finished the first two dungeons and I think I'm halfway through the 3rd. (Hard to tell the exact progress as it's wired differently than the other two.) I'm thinking of trying to write up a review for this one when I clear it. Image
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Tainted Grail.
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Post by 1998 »

Shadow of Mordor. It's ok, probably not finishing it though. Starting to feel really repetitive, finished mission 14. The nemesis system is greatly overhyped. Not sure why I should care about it. Yeah I might waste an arrow, but that's about it.
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Post by J1M »

1998 wrote: May 24th, 2025, 15:12
Shadow of Mordor. It's ok, probably not finishing it though. Starting to feel really repetitive, finished mission 14. The nemesis system is greatly overhyped. Not sure why I should care about it. Yeah I might waste an arrow, but that's about it.
It's like journos agreed on some sort collective delusion to praise that system to cover up not actually playing that game and it spiralled out of control.

That or they are all so terrible at playing that they were enthralled with the first game that made them feel like dying to the same mook over and over was unlocking content.
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Post by methoxetamine »

Sleeping Dogs and SMT 4 Apocalypse
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

The only thing I remember from Shadow of War was when I was saved by a Gondorian during the prologue, had no idea it was coming


Otherwise utterly forgettable games
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Post by gerey »

Crow Country - well, I finished it over the weekend (again).

I liked it more than I thought I would. The game itself is not really breaking new ground, it's a very easy game, even at the highest difficulty and lacks inventory management.

That being said, it nails the Resident Evil gameplay loop of exploring, managing resources, fighting monsters, solving puzzles and slowly opening up new areas of the map and unlocking shortcuts.

While the game may look like it uses prerendered background, in reality it is in 3D and you can freely rotate the camera, which is sometimes necessary to find hidden items or solve a puzzle. Combat has its own quirks, namely that you have to physically aim the gun at the enemy. Fighting enemies was not particularly difficult, and the game gives you plenty of tools to do so, with enough ammo to kill every enemy you encounter - doubly so since it tends to give you the resource you're missing any time you break open a box.

Enemy variety is also nothing to write home about - there are different enemies, but the only really notable difference between each of them is how fast they move and how much health they have, and maybe the size of their hitbox.

I don't really much care about the narrative of most survival horror games, since it's usually just there to justify why the character is going to a spooky location and why there are monsters there, and Crow Country is no different. There are a few interesting twists, but it's all very predictable and expected.

I think the best way to look at this game is an entry level survival horror game. It's not that difficult, it's not particularly scary, and while it does offer a few unique twists to veterans of the genre, it features most of the fundamentals that you will need to become familiar to play more games in the genre.

It also has a game journalist difficulty option where there are no enemies, and there are two specific locations in the game that will give you infinite pistol bullets (though only if you don't have any, and only a full magazine) and infinite bandages (though this is very late into the game).

A single playthrough should take about 5 hours if you take your time, and 4 hours if you don't bother to explore more. Replay value is limited to achieving a higher rating (B, A, S) and hunting down and destroying 42 ravens around the map. There's no alternative endings, and the one ending there is has only minor variations depending on what you do.

I still think that Signalis is the superior survival horror game, both in terms of gameplay and presentation, but if you're looking for a polished survival horror title and have already gone through the backlog of these, this is a perfectly solid entry.
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Post by rusty_shackleford »

Tried playing tainted grail some more and meh, the game is very repetitive. Guess I'll go back to Wizardry 6.
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Post by Element »

Sank an hour into Gloomwood. First impressions:

It hews closer to Thief than Dishonored. Your character is slow and has no magical abilities. Killing an enemy means backstabbing them with a special attack that requires ~1s charge time. You can find a gun almost immediately but the ammunition is extremely sparse. You have a ring that shows you the light level your character finds himself in, a nice nod to the gem from Thief, and far more diegetic. Level design (well, at least of what I played) is good - lots of little nooks and crannies, obscure passageways and shortcuts. You can overhear optional dialogue if you explore thoroughly etc. You cannot run. Your options are limited to a brisk walk, slow (sneak) walk, an even slower crouch and crouch-sneaking like a snail. The slow walk seems to suffice on soft surfaces against the standard enemies. You can also vault over objects or climb on top of them much like in Thief by holding the jump key.

However, it's still in early access and there's plenty of aspects lacking polish, together with some questionable design choices. Physics are implemented, but only select items such as bottles or spent casings can make a sound at a distance. Throwing books or cups against a wall will not trigger a response from the enemy (you can instead whack metallic surfaces with your cane, though that's less useful). The sound propagation is wonky - I would throw a bottle against a wall in the same room as the enemy, only for him to ignore it whilst another enemy from the floor below would burst through the door 10 seconds later. The sound of their footsteps is inconsistent even on hard surfaces so be prepared for them to appear when you least expect. They don't talk much until they arrive at their destination either. The light gem/ring may mislead - I was spotted whilst standing in complete shadows with the ring showing not a trace of light, whilst an enemy failed to spot me squatting behind a small box in a well lit room moments later.

You have the RE4 inspired tetris suitcase for an inventory, though it's tiny and precludes you from hoarding. I have found a human head which can be 'researched' - afaik there are potions which you can brew later in the game, but you need to haul the necessary items to the alembic. The head takes up 4 slots of 24 available, so you are forced into choosing the tradeoffs right off the bat.

The enemies appear dumber than the ones in Thief. Whilst they can do some mildly impressive hard-coded things like jumping over window ledges to pursue you on an awning, they do not care about seeing one of their own die right in front of them. They can startle themselves - if one jumps through a window the others will become alert even as they watch him do it. They are fast and their exploration patterns are more erratic than Thief's however, which is a cheap cop-out. I played on 2nd hardest difficult and find it more artificial that something like The Black Parade.

Overall it's quite good. The atmosphere is decent, the set up is somewhat intriguing. But be prepared for hiccups.

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Post by gerey »

Element wrote: May 26th, 2025, 08:26
It hews closer to Thief than Dishonored.
Eh, I wouldn't really say it does.

The dev really ****** up by referencing Thief, even though I understand why he did it and is not incorrect in that regard. The game really doesn't require you to sneak, at least as long as you're only facing the huntsmen. It's better to think of the game as a first-person Resident Evil with optional sneaking and immersive sim elements.

Mind you, the dev has gone on record saying that the team will eventually implement a powerful enemy that is attracted to corpses, so sneaking and not killing opponents will become more important.

And yes, the whole thing is very much a work in progress, since they're still adding more mechanics to it. The most recent update introduced the first part of the research upgrade, and there's likely many other mechanics they're still planning to introduce later on.
Element wrote: May 26th, 2025, 08:26
though it's tiny and precludes you from hoarding
You can upgrade it later on.
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Post by Element »

gerey wrote: May 26th, 2025, 08:38
Element wrote: May 26th, 2025, 08:26
It hews closer to Thief than Dishonored.
Eh, I wouldn't really say it does.
What set Dishonored apart for me is the blink ability. It simplifies traversal of terrain and gives the feel that sort of weightless, floaty feeling, similar to what Fromsoft titles became over the years. It's much easier to fight as well. If I was to rephrase it - it is easier to emulate the experience of Thief in Gloomwood than it is in Dishonored, even if you commit to avoiding combat or abilities in the latter.
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Post by gerey »

Element wrote: May 26th, 2025, 09:03
it is easier to emulate the experience of Thief in Gloomwood than it is in Dishonored, even if you commit to avoiding combat or abilities in the latter
Yeah, but on the flipside Gloomwood enables you to be much more aggressive than you could be in Thief. Your offensive arsenal is more varied and lethal than what you had in Thief, and that's ignoring the abilities you can gain by researching enemies.

I think a good way to put it would be to say that Gloomwood doesn't penalize you for being detected and engaging in violence anywhere near as much as Thief does.
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Post by maidenhaver »

If detected in Gloomwood, was your response to keep playing or quickload? The videos I've seen make combats look trivial, so that I would load a save anyway, instead of keep playing. They didn't show off behaviors, either. Enemies looked like they'd keep chasing, even if you've broken line of sight, again.
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Post by Element »

maidenhaver wrote: May 26th, 2025, 11:36
If detected in Gloomwood, was your response to keep playing or quickload? The videos I've seen make combats look trivial, so that I would load a save anyway, instead of keep playing. They didn't show off behaviors, either. Enemies looked like they'd keep chasing, even if you've broken line of sight, again.
Keep playing. 1v1 you can win a fight, although if you're up against the shotgun wielding enemies you might have little health left by the end. In the opening level there's also a lot of verticality so that you can make a getaway by dropping down a floor, climbing up a **** etc. But I did the same in Thief too, even against hammerhaunts. In Gloomwood it's better to clear out enemies through carefully preparing an ambush - dropping explosive barrels etc.
Last edited by Element on May 26th, 2025, 12:34, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by gerey »

maidenhaver wrote: May 26th, 2025, 11:36
keep playing or quickload
Can't really savescum at the higher difficulties, unless they've changed this in the latest update.
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Post by J1M »

Was playing Revenge of the Savage Planet yesterday. I enjoyed the first one a lot as a quirky Metroid Prime. I don't find the sequel as enjoyable. Possibly because it is trying too hard with the humor and it shifted to 3rd person.
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Post by Val the Moofia Boss »

Element wrote: May 26th, 2025, 08:26
Sank an hour into Gloomwood. First impressions:

It hews closer to Thief than Dishonored. Your character is slow and has no magical abilities. Killing an enemy means backstabbing them with a special attack that requires ~1s charge time. You can find a gun almost immediately but the ammunition is extremely sparse. You have a ring that shows you the light level your character finds himself in, a nice nod to the gem from Thief, and far more diegetic. Level design (well, at least of what I played) is good - lots of little nooks and crannies, obscure passageways and shortcuts. You can overhear optional dialogue if you explore thoroughly etc. You cannot run. Your options are limited to a brisk walk, slow (sneak) walk, an even slower crouch and crouch-sneaking like a snail. The slow walk seems to suffice on soft surfaces against the standard enemies. You can also vault over objects or climb on top of them much like in Thief by holding the jump key.

However, it's still in early access and there's plenty of aspects lacking polish, together with some questionable design choices. Physics are implemented, but only select items such as bottles or spent casings can make a sound at a distance. Throwing books or cups against a wall will not trigger a response from the enemy (you can instead whack metallic surfaces with your cane, though that's less useful). The sound propagation is wonky - I would throw a bottle against a wall in the same room as the enemy, only for him to ignore it whilst another enemy from the floor below would burst through the door 10 seconds later. The sound of their footsteps is inconsistent even on hard surfaces so be prepared for them to appear when you least expect. They don't talk much until they arrive at their destination either. The light gem/ring may mislead - I was spotted whilst standing in complete shadows with the ring showing not a trace of light, whilst an enemy failed to spot me squatting behind a small box in a well lit room moments later.

You have the RE4 inspired tetris suitcase for an inventory, though it's tiny and precludes you from hoarding. I have found a human head which can be 'researched' - afaik there are potions which you can brew later in the game, but you need to haul the necessary items to the alembic. The head takes up 4 slots of 24 available, so you are forced into choosing the tradeoffs right off the bat.

The enemies appear dumber than the ones in Thief. Whilst they can do some mildly impressive hard-coded things like jumping over window ledges to pursue you on an awning, they do not care about seeing one of their own die right in front of them. They can startle themselves - if one jumps through a window the others will become alert even as they watch him do it. They are fast and their exploration patterns are more erratic than Thief's however, which is a cheap cop-out. I played on 2nd hardest difficult and find it more artificial that something like The Black Parade.

Overall it's quite good. The atmosphere is decent, the set up is somewhat intriguing. But be prepared for hiccups.

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I replayed the demo a couple of times when it first came out. At first it is easy to think it is a thief-esque experience due to the intimidating aesthetic and atmosphere that makes you want to be stealthy, but on my subsequent playthroughs I found it very easy to kill all of the non birdmen enemies, and even managed to kill a few birdmen. The only room I couldn't clear was the last one where you call down the elevator and a loud alarm is going off, as there are too many incoming birdmen to kill so just have no choice but to go up. I suppose in thief you could also run around with the club knocking almost everyone out, but I found that to be much harder and more time consuming, whereas by my second replay I was sprinting through the levels killing henchmen left and right and not caring about being detected.

Element wrote: May 26th, 2025, 09:03
gerey wrote: May 26th, 2025, 08:38
Element wrote: May 26th, 2025, 08:26
It hews closer to Thief than Dishonored.
Eh, I wouldn't really say it does.
What set Dishonored apart for me is the blink ability. It simplifies traversal of terrain and gives the feel that sort of weightless, floaty feeling, similar to what Fromsoft titles became over the years. It's much easier to fight as well. If I was to rephrase it - it is easier to emulate the experience of Thief in Gloomwood than it is in Dishonored, even if you commit to avoiding combat or abilities in the latter.
I feel Dishonored isn't anything like Thief. You have to use the powers in order to stealth, like getting up onto rafters so you can get out of sight of patrolling guards in hallways. IIRC I also finished a level thinking I had been very meticulous and never killed anyone, only for the mission end screen to say that I had killed someone. I had no idea how that could have happened.

gerey wrote: May 26th, 2025, 09:20
Element wrote: May 26th, 2025, 09:03
it is easier to emulate the experience of Thief in Gloomwood than it is in Dishonored, even if you commit to avoiding combat or abilities in the latter
Yeah, but on the flipside Gloomwood enables you to be much more aggressive than you could be in Thief. Your offensive arsenal is more varied and lethal than what you had in Thief, and that's ignoring the abilities you can gain by researching enemies.

I think a good way to put it would be to say that Gloomwood doesn't penalize you for being detected and engaging in violence anywhere near as much as Thief does.
I think you are definitely supposed to fight in Gloomwood, perhaps not meant to eviscerate everything but every other being in the levels besides you is not some innocent human. They are all evil abominations. So you won't stealth as an oath of conscience but instead in case you are stepping into an unfamiliar room and you are scoping out the layout before you fight, just to make sure you don't get trapped and killed by a bunch of birdmen like the final room in the demo.
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Post by Norfleet »

gerey wrote: May 26th, 2025, 09:20
Yeah, but on the flipside Gloomwood enables you to be much more aggressive than you could be in Thief.
On the other hand, being aggressive wasn't the point of Thief. It's called THIEF, not MURDERER.
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Post by maidenhaver »

Norfleet wrote: May 26th, 2025, 19:37
gerey wrote: May 26th, 2025, 09:20
Yeah, but on the flipside Gloomwood enables you to be much more aggressive than you could be in Thief.
On the other hand, being aggressive wasn't the point of Thief. It's called THIEF, not MURDERER.
I just like running away if I can, instead of quickloading.
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Post by gerey »

Norfleet wrote: May 26th, 2025, 19:37
On the other hand, being aggressive wasn't the point of Thief. It's called THIEF, not MURDERER.
But the game does encourage you to be aggressive. The blackjack is an outright broken piece of equipment, the optimal way to play Thief is to knock out as many guards as possible to be able to explore the map unimpeded.

Thief 2 does attempt to mitigate this problem by giving some guards steel helmets, but that's more of a bandaid than an actual fix.

Another wrinkle are undead enemies, since they require far more resources and preparation to vanquish, so the best way to deal with them is to sneak past unless they're in area you are going to traverse multiple times.

And no, ghosting is not how Thief was intended to be played - unless you're well acquainted with the game and its mechanics, and aren't exploiting glitches in a few missions, many levels are either frustratingly difficult, or outright impossible to ghost.

I do agree that fighting is not the focus of Thief, and Garrett himself is not equipped to fight enemies head on. That being said, in Gloomwood your arsenal is far more destructive, and there's far more ways to cause death and mayhem. I remember playing the section right after the tavern, with lots of huntsmen roaming about. What I eventually settled on to get past them was to cause a racket to draw them close to an explosive barrel before firing an incendiary bolt into the barrel, taking out 7 or 8 enemies in a single shot. Was pretty satisfying.

If the devs are to be trusted, and as I mentioned previously, they do have plans to nerf the player's ability to backstab every enemy they come across, and to discourage being too aggressive. They've already introduced enemies with breastplates that are impervious to the sword, and they discussed a dangerous enemy that would be drawn to corpses they plan to introduce in the future.
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Post by Norfleet »

gerey wrote: May 26th, 2025, 22:30
And no, ghosting is not how Thief was intended to be played - unless you're well acquainted with the game and its mechanics, and aren't exploiting glitches in a few missions, many levels are either frustratingly difficult, or outright impossible to ghost.

I do agree that fighting is not the focus of Thief, and Garrett himself is not equipped to fight enemies head on.
Exactly. That was my point. You don't have to ghost, but you're not really encouraged to be aggressive and cause destruction, either. You really don't want to be in a position where you have to use your sword.