How to make important equipment matter

[rusty_shackleford]

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So for those that haven't played BG3, there's a completely missable optional mace that is great when you get it and …OK by the end of the game. Not too good if using it as your primary weapon, but its effects are useful in certain situations. For a mace that is presumably drenched in the blood of a God, it's not all that powerful, especially when it gets outclassed by somewhat mundane magical weapons near the end of the game

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Gear the levels up with you can be cool but would be obnoxious if overdone.
Pillars of Eternity has soulbound equipment that requires you to complete certain goals to move it to the next level.

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Seen anything else?

This also introduces the problem of it obviating any other gear for the same slot. Less of an issue in a party-based game, but it becomes a big issue if it's a single character, or RPG where you only gear your character.
Any RPGs that went further and addressed this issue?

[WaterMage]

Yep. Pillows soulbound items where a great innovation. Other example is G2 claw of the beliar. It scales with you. And is quite powerful.

[rusty_shackleford]

[Tweed]

Yep. Pillows soulbound items where a great innovation. Other example is G2 claw of the beliar. It scales with you. And is quite powerful.

Unless you're a mage, in which case it's a useless piece of ****.

[DemoGraph]

Like souls did it. Godly weapons should have higher stat multipliers and/or quest/plot multipliers (Khorne sword would only help you if you've spilled enough blood, Azura sword would only help you if she blessed you after a quest).

D&D doesn't have these multipliers (at least in 3.5ED I've played last), so... don't play D&D?

That mace example is probably just devs being dumb. Nothing can save against it.

[Tadeusz]

Any RPGs that went further and addressed this issue?

Dawn of Magic has an unusual equipment system: it has regular stuff which has some gradations (linear increase in damage or armor) and the unique equipment that give special bonuses and drop from bosses and sometimes can be found in shops. Player's goal is usually to get unique equipment that go along with his build and these unique pieces of equipment don't have gradations so a piece of gear from the beginning of the game can be relevant up to the end. Equipment also has slots for runes which add additional effects and the player can assign material to the equipment that also gives bonuses so a unique piece of equipment can be further modified to fit the player's ends as the game progresses.

[rusty_shackleford]

What's the downside of systems where equipment has attachable parts?

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Perhaps not to the same autistic milsim level, of course. But it would solve an issue with an entire slot being obviated by a powerful weapon — you can still find plenty of parts for it which would feel meaningful.

[J1M]

I don't find equipment particularly interesting. Usually it's a lot of mental overhead just to stay on-par with the stat growth of enemies that are functionally the same as dire rats.

I do find combining gems and runes in Diablo 2 to be fun, but I struggle to think of an example where an RPG other than Deus Ex that would not have been improved by removing inventory management. Picking up random crafting bits and junk items has no appeal.

Plus, these days you often can't use most weapon types due to the way passive benefits work. So maybe weapon progress should just be a talent tree on the family heirloom weapon.

[Tadeusz]

What's the downside of systems where equipment has attachable parts?

Maybe that equipment will feel replaceable and weak without attachable parts but otherwise I don't see any, I think more games should use something like this. I think base equipment should have a small set of alternatives that pertain to different builds and few attachable parts or enchantments to adjust it to the player's style.

[wndrbr]

I don't like when rpgs give you these ancient drenched in God's blood giga powerful artifacts. The solution is not to give player anything legendary.

How come some ****** filthy rogueyish adventurer deserves to own something like that?

[Tangerine]

Seems like inventory management would get annoying due to item bloat unless components are direct upgrades, which has its own problems.

[WaterMage]

What's the downside of systems where equipment has attachable parts?

Perhaps not to the same autistic milsim level, of course. But it would solve an issue with an entire slot being obviated by a powerful weapon — you can still find plenty of parts for it which would feel meaningful.

I never understand why so many FPS allow you to customize everything from muzzle break to stock but using another different ammo type? No, never!!!

I don't like when rpgs give you these ancient drenched in God's blood giga powerful artifacts. The solution is not to give player anything legendary.

Or, just give it at endgame. Eg - Uriziel in Gothic 1.

[loregamer]

Can't think of any solution other than your weapons and armor scale in power and value with you. If you have to upgrade it, then it was never legendary. May as well just Transmog it for the appearance at that point

[Tweed]

What's the downside of systems where equipment has attachable parts?

Perhaps not to the same autistic milsim level, of course. But it would solve an issue with an entire slot being obviated by a powerful weapon — you can still find plenty of parts for it which would feel meaningful.

The downside is when there's ONE TRUE WAY and the rest are sidegrades or useless.

Clear Sky and Call of Pripyat did okay with its gun upgrades and forcing the player to choose how they wanted to upgrade their equipment including rechambering their guns.

[J1M]

What's the downside of systems where equipment has attachable parts?

Perhaps not to the same autistic milsim level, of course. But it would solve an issue with an entire slot being obviated by a powerful weapon — you can still find plenty of parts for it which would feel meaningful.

I never understand why so many FPS allow you to customize everything from muzzle break to stock but using another different ammo type? No, never!!!

I don't like when rpgs give you these ancient drenched in God's blood giga powerful artifacts. The solution is not to give player anything legendary.

Or, just give it at endgame. Eg - Uriziel in Gothic 1.

Because selling the different ammo type for real money is only acceptable in the orient.

[Oyster Sauce]

What's the downside of systems where equipment has attachable parts?

Perhaps not to the same autistic milsim level, of course. But it would solve an issue with an entire slot being obviated by a powerful weapon — you can still find plenty of parts for it which would feel meaningful.

Oh cool there are 700 unique parts for the AK?

Google.com/ak74+best+attachment+dps

Most Spiders games do this

[Element]

If we're talking strictly of the system, then perhaps giving them unique properties that cannot be recreated on other items via enchantment, upgrades etc. would work. Another would be unique attacks and animations for that weapon alone.
If it's a first person game, you could make the weapon have decorations of some kind so that the player would be less willing to spend his time staring at a more boring version, even if it has better numbers.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

If you have undertaken a long and difficult journey or construction process to acquire a truly powerful legendary weapon, you should be able to keep with you for nearly forever. Powercreeping it would undermine the achievement. You also have other things to work towards for making your character more powerful, ie other item slots, or acquiring new skills and abilities, or acquiring a higher rank in your faction which grants more authority and knowledge and resources, etc. Other legendary weapons could still be worth working to acquire if they provide alternative effects, or if for some reason you decide you want to shoot a bow instead of swinging a mace.

[DrSneed]

What's the downside of systems where equipment has attachable parts?
ive-been-trying-to-get-better-at-weapon-modding-how-is-the-v0-4ytcgrll30xd1.webp
Perhaps not to the same autistic milsim level, of course. But it would solve an issue with an entire slot being obviated by a powerful weapon — you can still find plenty of parts for it which would feel meaningful.

This is basically what PF2E does with runes. On specific magic weapons you aren't supposed to swap out the property runes, but I haven't met a DM that actually cares about that rule.

[Norfleet]

Perhaps not to the same autistic milsim level, of course.

The funny thing is, in the real world, a few attachments/mods are situationally helpful, and the rest are purely user-preference bling that doesn't objectively improve the performance of the weapon at all. For the normal soldier firing under typical battlefield conditions, RIFLE IS FINE.

[TKVNC]

Legendary weapons should be more meta than just stats.

For example, if it's a well known weapon perhaps people will surrender instead of fighting, or some such.

Add effects that are more than just 'damage go up'.

Otherwise, the main issue is HP should not necessarily increase with level, at least not dramatically. The main reason why gear seems poitless and stops mattering is because NPCs turn into health sponges; this is not a fun mechanic.

[DemoGraph]

What's the downside of systems where equipment has attachable parts?

Micromanagement.
On the plus side, micromanagement and customization. E.g. in FTL you can change ship crew on the go and it's the core of the game loop.

[gerey]

Why not use a combination of methods to make the items feel unique:

1. A legendary weapon that has been damaged and requires reforging/repairing - you can turn this into a quest that would span the length of the whole game, requiring the protagonist to gather the various parts, materials and knowledge required to fix it, on top of the money or favor that he would need to prompt a legendary blacksmith to fix it.

The process could also be incremental, each new component that is added either powering up the weapon or adding new functionality (or both).

Alternatively, the weapon can only grow in power (or return to its former glory) once certain conditions are met, the protagonist having to "prove" to the weapon or deity he is worthy of wielding the artifact at full power. This could be done either via quests, or simply by having the protagonist perform a certain action a number of times, or one specific action.

2. The artifact can be at full power from the get go, but actually using it requires there to be very specific conditions, or using it requires a sacrifice or will compel the character to do something.

As an example, in the Nasuverse Excalibur's power grows as each condition, each signifying a more and more dire set of circumstances, are met. Or Tyrfing, which could never be drawn without killing a man.

The goal should be to make each magical weapon feel actually magical and unique. Instead of having a short blurb describing a magical sword, and it just dealing more damage, come up with interesting ways such an artifact would function, why and how it was created, and what using it would entail for the wielder. Could unleashing the full power of the sword require the wielder to murder someone they love, be it a family member, friend or loved one? What if it houses a demon trying to trick you into doing evil, or sabotaging you during a fight?

[DemoGraph]

We can also turn the tables.
"You are a legendary sword looking for yet another mook to wash you in blood" the RPG.

[Stack of Turtles]

What's the downside of systems where equipment has attachable parts?

Perhaps not to the same autistic milsim level, of course. But it would solve an issue with an entire slot being obviated by a powerful weapon — you can still find plenty of parts for it which would feel meaningful.

Oh cool there are 700 unique parts for the AK?

Google.com/ak74+best+attachment+dps

Most Spiders games do this

That's why you need to make it so different situations require different guns.

[Norfleet]

That's why you need to make it so different situations require different guns.

The funny thing is that this is also purely gamey. Unless you are playing an extremely specialized role, RIFLE IS FINE. That's why your team consists of one guy carrying a specialized weapon for the mission and everyone else with bogstandard AR. RIFLE IS FINE.

[Stack of Turtles]

That's why you need to make it so different situations require different guns.

The funny thing is that this is also purely gamey. Unless you are playing an extremely specialized role, RIFLE IS FINE. That's why your team consists of one guy carrying a specialized weapon for the mission and everyone else with bogstandard AR. RIFLE IS FINE.

That's true. In a realistic setting where all the guns just shoot bullets it simply shouldn't matter much. I'm thinking about fantasy guns that do special things like shoot lasers or lightning.

[Norfleet]

I'm thinking about fantasy guns that do special things like shoot lasers or lightning.

The amusing this about all that is that in many games, they give you tons of guns that shoot all kinds of fancy damage types, and yet at the end of the day, while some damage type might do better against that one specific enemy, it tends to be utterly crap everywhere else and unless you want to carry around 5 different guns like a Doom protagonist, RIFLE IS FINE.

[Yankee Zulu]

Perhaps the material is what should matter the most. It should affect item durability and its damaging properties. Like an iron sword would do the same amount of damage as a steel sword but it can break faster and/or more frequently. A wooden sword on the other hand would do no damage to armored targets but can still damage unarmored ones.