Is the gameplay of Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim too dated?

[NotAI]

In 2025?

I mean dated in a bad way. There are obviously many old games who gameplay is superior to most games that came out long after...dated in a good way.

If yes, explain why you think that? What about this type of game is dated?

To me it seems yes, with the Oblivion remake that had recently come out. The graphics are much improved, and this feels more immersive, but it feels like the gameplay is, indeed, too dated. An increasingly common complaint?

Why does it feel like that? Hmmm?

Morrowind was the least dated, I think, of the three.

Edit. On the other hand, I actually feel the gameplay of Daggerfall, which came out years earlier, is better, ahead of its time.

[rusty_shackleford]

things that immediately pop out:

How easy it is to break the games. Devs shouldn't overly focus on balance or autistically obsess with making sure there's nothing "broken", but the games can be broken just by engaging with the systems as-is.
% chance to hit just feels bad in action RPGs. If my weapon connects, it should hit. This is only a Morrowind thing.
I don't find the leveling system in any of them to be particularly good. Oblivion is obviously the worst. I don't really know how to fix this off-hand, learn-by-use seems interesting at face value but it never actually feels good to me. Probably needs a strong mix of trainer NPCs rather than just jumping in place for 3 hours.

[NotAI]

High level npcs are total dmg sponges in the Oblivion remake and I don't remember that being as much the case in the original. There was sponginess but nothing tremendous.

I do remember the trolls and wildlife becoming too common and annoying to repeatedly deal with, because in fact spongy, at higher levels. But this is a separate problems: just populating the game world with random mobs is actually quite boring at high graphical fidelity, in most games. Including this series.

Yet it works better in Daggerfall. Hmmmm.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

A big issue IMO is that they do not deliver a satisfying criminal fantasy. You can't enter or exit through windows or tip toe across rooftops. There is no sound detection like in thief; you can cause as much of a ruckus tripping over or dropping things and no one will notice. It is weird how sometimes you will get criminal flagged when there appeared to have been no one around to witness you do something evil. And then once you are flagged as a criminal, you don't feel that you are in danger much once you run from the immediate vicinity of the guards. Wanted posters of you don't get put up and adventurers/warrior guilds/knighthood orders/bounty hunters don't come hunting you down. And there aren't enough evil or criminal organizations for you to meet and interact with while you are banished from civilization.

[rusty_shackleford]

Thought of another after posting:

I don't think the oblivion/skyrim inventory system is immersive or fit for the kind of games they (were, at least) going for. They're very abstract, almost like someone managing an inventory of items at a warehouse.
The 3D Fallouts actually feel significantly better in this regard despite not being all that different. The pipboy interface just feels more immersive, but I don't think this translates well to the TES setting.

Things like SkyUI might be functionally better, but they just feel like they don't belong.

Off hand suggestion would be an Arcanum-like grid inventory. Have a bunch of utility features related to item management tied to the Mercantile skill(or similar skills as warranted)

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Another issue is how boring the combat is. Clicking to swing your sword over and over isn't fun. Now I am not asking for crazy anime magic sword techniques to be added, but you don't even have the four directional swings and blocking and long weapons getting caught on walls like in mount & blade that makes moment to moment combat more engaging. And clicking to shoot a fireball isn't very interesting either.

Lastly, there are not enough big battles out in the world to participate in, to make you feel like you are participating in something grander. Going around doing small scale quests by yourself or with just one companion NPC accompanying you begins to feel small insignificant after a while.

[NotAI]

Agree, stylish combat had appeared, outside of turn-based FF games somewhat after, at least like in Nier. And we're all used to this now, right. Expect it. Edit. At least Witcher animations with some variety.

Then again, oddly, the simple combat doesn't feel off in Daggerfall Unity. Why?

Maybe it's like with a painting. If one part is high detail, another is low detail, it looks bad. Better to be all classical or all impressionistic. When the graphics improve, animation must also improve to match? And more options needed.

This was a problem even back when Vampire Bloodlines came out.

[DemoGraph]

Another issue is how boring the combat is. Clicking to swing your sword over and over isn't fun. Now I am not asking for crazy anime magic sword techniques to be added, but you don't even have the four directional swings and blocking and long weapons getting caught on walls like in mount & blade that makes moment to moment combat more engaging. And clicking to shoot a fireball isn't very interesting either.

I can talk only about Morrowind.
I tend to agree. But I think it's more of a problem of enemies, than the system in general.

Mechanically, I think, melee and archery are pretty much made like in D&D, but without feats. "If it was considered okay to roll for attack over and over in tabletop, why it couldn't be so for Morrowind?" Say, you're playing Baldur's Gate with a mono fighter party. All you do is attack move. Maybe chuck in a consumable sometimes. Just like in Morrowind. Because combat is more of an issue of preparation and resource management rather than button mashing.

About the same could be said about magic. Combat is a problem of managing your elemental DPS vs target resistances on a mana timer.

The main problem of the system that I see is that enemies are very easy. That's the failure of developers (probably because the game was released unfinished). I remember that the mod called Giants made me reconsider all my tactics, because enemies in it actively used resistances, swarming, etc. They weren't as easy to cheese as vanilla enemies.

Lastly, there are not enough big battles out in the world to participate in, to make you feel like you are participating in something grander. Going around doing small scale quests by yourself or with just one companion NPC accompanying you begins to feel small insignificant after a while.

I don't think that it's a problem for Morrowind. Lorewise, it's shown why group combat is doomed for failure. Inside the Ghostfence armies fail because they attract too much attention, armies in ashlands can't be realistically supplied, etc.

Also, the main quest is framed as a spiritual and interpersonal matter. Massed combat would look off in there.

Oblivion, on the other hand, probably has no excuse.

[goosegod]

I was trying to think what the next elder scrolls game needs to be an actual great game

I dont think the issue of melee combat has any easy answers. I dont want anime fighting or souls fighting but the current systems are so very "nothing" ... Id probably prefer the current nothing system with just a few additions of some kind. No ******* roll spam.

One thing elder scrolls has got so very ******* wrong since forever is all the writing/va/story/dialogue. Why is it consistently 0 effort? I get the stupid devs say simple is better but im certain simple with a sprinkle of effort could do so much more.

the tipping point for me is the most obvious - is exploration gonna be fun or not? say what you want about oblivion or skyrim but id say they did a great job of "pick a random direction and go and you will find something" which for some fuckin reason they took out of starfield.

i know making games is hard but are we ever gonna get a "scrolls like" game that succeeds on every level? ui, combat, rpg systems, writing, exploration? im a little confused why no other company even tries this type of game considering how much money skyrim made

[rusty_shackleford]

TES games would probably gain a lot from leaning into Dark Messiah-style combat tbh

[Roguey]

Skyrim isn't dated, its last new release was back in 2021, tens of thousands of people still play it every day. What's the competition, the Kingdom Come games? Too different to fully replace it, superior in some aspects, inferior in others.

TES games would probably gain a lot from leaning into Dark Messiah-style combat tbh

A lot of people have said this over the years, and it just does not scale to a dozens-to-hundreds-hours long open world RPG. The improved hit reactions in the Oblivion remake are fine enough.

[dagal]

Bethesda seems incapable of designing good gameplay or making a sensible RPG system. Their games would have been forgotten after the first playthrough if not for the mods.

The only game using that engine that does it alright would be Fallout NV, but that isn't even from Bethesda proper.

[Oyster Sauce]

It's a dead series that hasn't had a game in 15 years. Does VTMR have dated combat? Yes, it sucks. So what?

[BannedForBeingSane]

I think Elder Scrolls games are dated, but they are extremely addictive due to the psychological tricks they play on you, mainly itching your hoarder/collector instincts and the way that quests are seen as tangible objectives to follow.

People are seriously underestimating how addictive the quest objective map marker is. Always giving you the next tangible line to follow in order to cross those lines of text one by one from your quest diary. It almost becomes work, without any time limit stressing you like the expiration date of the battle pass in a gacha game.

Elder Scrolls games aren't fun. They're addictive. Once you see your quest journal having 40 quests, you feel compelled to finish said quests. It's no longer about having fun, it's about you getting fake tasks which subconsciously give you a sense of progression and ammassing of 'wealth' via an unending amount of gear and items to collect.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

I think Elder Scrolls games are dated, but they are extremely addictive due to the psychological tricks they play on you, mainly itching your hoarder/collector instincts and the way that quests are seen as tangible objectives to follow.

People are seriously underestimating how addictive the quest objective map marker is. Always giving you the next tangible line to follow in order to cross those lines of text one by one from your quest diary. It almost becomes work, without any time limit stressing you like the expiration date of the battle pass in a gacha game.

Elder Scrolls games aren't fun. They're addictive. Once you see your quest journal having 40 quests, you feel compelled to finish said quests. It's no longer about having fun, it's about you getting fake tasks which subconsciously give you a sense of progression and ammassing of 'wealth' via an unending amount of gear and items to collect.

To me, seeing lots of things and quests to do isn't fun. It feels like I have a lot of chores to do. Whenever I play a TES game, I try to focus on just doing one storyline at a time rather than collecting every sidequest in sight like in WoW.

[Godjjjita]

Thought of another after posting:

I don't think the oblivion/skyrim inventory system is immersive or fit for the kind of games they (were, at least) going for. They're very abstract, almost like someone managing an inventory of items at a warehouse.
The 3D Fallouts actually feel significantly better in this regard despite not being all that different. The pipboy interface just feels more immersive, but I don't think this translates well to the TES setting.

Things like SkyUI might be functionally better, but they just feel like they don't belong.

Off hand suggestion would be an Arcanum-like grid inventory. Have a bunch of utility features related to item management tied to the Mercantile skill(or similar skills as warranted)

Weirdly enough, Pokemon did inventory management better in the gameboy age. You had a backpack and you could shift through the sections of the backpack for the item categories you wanted to browse.
Skyrim's map is the worse part of it, it is a satellite view of the landmass instead of a real map item you go look into just like real life.

[DrSneed]

It's not dated it's just bad and this was the case even on the original release day

[rusty_shackleford]

Skyrim isn't dated, its last new release was back in 2021, tens of thousands of people still play it every day.

This has absolutely zero bearing on whether it is dated or bad.

[WaterMage]

I really hate the expression "dated" as if older games necessarily has bad gameplay and every game must be gear farming cooldown managing barbie dressing games.

Guess what, Dark Messiah of Might & Magic is old and has much better gameplay than most modern games.

[Roguey]

Skyrim isn't dated, its last new release was back in 2021, tens of thousands of people still play it every day.

This has absolutely zero bearing on whether it is dated or bad.

The number of people playing Skyrim right now exceeds Fallout 4 and Starfield https://steamdb.info/charts/?compare=72 ... 30,1716740

If it were dated, people wouldn't be bothering with this old clunky game, they'd be playing the new Bethesda titles.

[Vergil]

No they're actually more futuristic than games that come out today.

[Valter]

I was legit confused when I tried Morrowind and my swings weren't doing damage

[psychic_dream]

I can only speak for Skyrim, since I haven’t played the earlier titles, but I always found the melee combat to feel floaty and lacking in weight. Spellcasting also wasn’t as elaborate as I expected, though it’s still fun.

What’s interesting to me is that even a 13 year old game like Skyrim has more interactive elements with the environment than a recent title like Avowed. With all the advances in CPU development, you’d think we’d have better physics in games by now, right? But nope, that hasn’t happened, and much of the blame goes to catering to consoles and their historically weak CPU capabilities.

[Vaako]

Yes the gameplay of Oblivion is dated. You would need a better crime system and additional character progression and probably also house building Fallout4 style these days. Melee combat in the remake also is weird you can do 3 attacks and then you pause for a second and start over which feels really weird. In the original you could swing all day and never get tired but did barely any damage thanks to the level scaling. But with Bethesda they will not improve the gameplay really in the future and rather remove even more systems, so that we get another Starfield if they make another game.

[Roguey]

I can only speak for Skyrim, since I haven’t played the earlier titles, but I always found the melee combat to feel floaty and lacking in weight. Spellcasting also wasn’t as elaborate as I expected, though it’s still fun.

What’s interesting to me is that even a 13 year old game like Skyrim has more interactive elements with the environment than a recent title like Avowed. With all the advances in CPU development, you’d think we’d have better physics in games by now, right? But nope, that hasn’t happened, and much of the blame goes to catering to consoles and their historically weak CPU capabilities.

Skyrim and Oblivion were console games. It's just a matter of dev priorities. Todd thought it was important because he loved Ultima 7.

[asf]

elder scrolls gameplay was always totally atrocious, even back when they were released

in fact, as the world becomes ever more ******** you could argue their crap gameplay holds better today than it did 20 years ago