Various role-playing RPG game stuff not deserving its own thread

[Rand]

[1998]

Codex GOTY 24

[Oyster Sauce]

Codex GOTY 24

I appreciate that absolutely no effort was put into making that graph comprehensible

[Jordy]

Codex GOTY 24

I appreciate that absolutely no effort was put into making that graph comprehensible

"Bloomiyfysxhfdztdfhggj,bgkbjkbkjlkhjjhvhc b viuhiuhuCorpse Keeper"

[rusty_shackleford]

Do you really like using ability scores? Or are you just used to them? Because it seems as though you only want ability scores to be worth a +1 or +2 bonus at most and reduce them to vestigial bits. Put bluntly, it's not worth keeping the mechanical and meta-fictional baggage of ability scores if they're going to provide only a token bonus. It's not worth the system mastery trap of needing to pick the sneaky class, the sneaky score, and the sneaky skill to have a sneaky guy worth a ****. It's not worth the twin bugbears of being mechanically punished for having a socially skilled fighter or true Vancian wizard (ie, a well-rounded adventurer like wizards actually are in Jack Vance's Dying Earth books); or being called a munchkin power-gamer because your fighter has to have an 18 STR to not suck but you roleplay your 8 CHA dude as a generally pleasant person. It's not worth watching the light go out of a new player's eyes because they wanted to play a guy based on their favorite fictional character but the realities of ability scores make it impossible.

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@J1M @WhiteShark what's your opinion on this? It appears to have been from feedback to 5E from a 4E player, but an opinion fairly widely held by 4E players.

[J1M]

Do you really like using ability scores? Or are you just used to them? Because it seems as though you only want ability scores to be worth a +1 or +2 bonus at most and reduce them to vestigial bits. Put bluntly, it's not worth keeping the mechanical and meta-fictional baggage of ability scores if they're going to provide only a token bonus. It's not worth the system mastery trap of needing to pick the sneaky class, the sneaky score, and the sneaky skill to have a sneaky guy worth a ****. It's not worth the twin bugbears of being mechanically punished for having a socially skilled fighter or true Vancian wizard (ie, a well-rounded adventurer like wizards actually are in Jack Vance's Dying Earth books); or being called a munchkin power-gamer because your fighter has to have an 18 STR to not suck but you roleplay your 8 CHA dude as a generally pleasant person. It's not worth watching the light go out of a new player's eyes because they wanted to play a guy based on their favorite fictional character but the realities of ability scores make it impossible.

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@J1M @WhiteShark what's your opinion on this? It appears to have been from feedback to 5E from a 4E player, but an opinion fairly widely held by 4E players.

I think ability scores stopped being interesting when they stopped being randomly assigned values. (And then you picked a class that you could make work.)

There isn't really an interesting choice associated with them. I can't think of more than two classes in Pathfinder Kingmaker where you wouldn't want to put all of your ability boosts into the same ability.

When some classes were more dependent on multiple attributes there was a bit of interesting tension but whining has removed that from the game at this point. Now everything is "balanced" (boring).

It also strains the veremicilitude (which is apparently important to people playing a half-centaur with purple hair AND the OSR crowd) for a human fighter to somehow have the strength of an adult dragon without the involvement of magic.

I mentioned in another thread that I think race should be as important as class (aka power source + party role) and instead of trying squeeze out a 5% advantage on a die roll the combination of these choices should define the tools you have available to solve challenges.

[rusty_shackleford]

Do you really like using ability scores? Or are you just used to them? Because it seems as though you only want ability scores to be worth a +1 or +2 bonus at most and reduce them to vestigial bits. Put bluntly, it's not worth keeping the mechanical and meta-fictional baggage of ability scores if they're going to provide only a token bonus. It's not worth the system mastery trap of needing to pick the sneaky class, the sneaky score, and the sneaky skill to have a sneaky guy worth a ****. It's not worth the twin bugbears of being mechanically punished for having a socially skilled fighter or true Vancian wizard (ie, a well-rounded adventurer like wizards actually are in Jack Vance's Dying Earth books); or being called a munchkin power-gamer because your fighter has to have an 18 STR to not suck but you roleplay your 8 CHA dude as a generally pleasant person. It's not worth watching the light go out of a new player's eyes because they wanted to play a guy based on their favorite fictional character but the realities of ability scores make it impossible.

---

@J1M @WhiteShark what's your opinion on this? It appears to have been from feedback to 5E from a 4E player, but an opinion fairly widely held by 4E players.

I think ability scores stopped being interesting when they stopped being randomly assigned values. (And then you picked a class that you could make work.)

There isn't really an interesting choice associated with them. I can't think of more than two classes in Pathfinder Kingmaker where you wouldn't want to put all of your ability boosts into the same ability.

When some classes were more dependent on multiple attributes there was a bit of interesting tension but whining has removed that from the game at this point. Now everything is "balanced" (boring).

It also strains the veremicilitude (which is apparently important to people playing a half-centaur with purple hair AND the OSR crowd) for a human fighter to somehow have the strength of an adult dragon without the involvement of magic.

I mentioned in another thread that I think race should be as important as class (aka power source + party role) and instead of trying squeeze out a 5% advantage on a die roll the combination of these choices should define the tools you have available to solve challenges.

What's your opinion of ability scores(stats) in games like Fallout or Underrail?

[Ryzer]

In Underrail, it is just linked to the type of weapons you want to use.

Agility -> Fist
Strength -> Melee, Assault rifles, LMGs, Snipers
Perception -> Guns
Will -> Magic Psi powers

They don't have any other meaningful utility.

[rusty_shackleford]

In Underrail, it is just linked to the type of weapons you want to use.

Agility -> Fist
Strength -> Melee, Assault rifles, LMGs, Snipers
Perception -> Guns
Will -> Magic Psi powers

They don't have any other meaningful utility.

The question then becomes, is it actually a useful mechanic to have or just vestigial bits that exists because that's the way it has always been?
What are some examples of RPGs that don't have core attributes? Or at least, I suppose, ones you assign at character creation?

[Ryzer]

In Underrail, it is just linked to the type of weapons you want to use.

Agility -> Fist
Strength -> Melee, Assault rifles, LMGs, Snipers
Perception -> Guns
Will -> Magic Psi powers

They don't have any other meaningful utility.

What are some examples of RPGs that don't have core attributes? Or at least, I suppose, ones you assign at character creation?

I can only think of Enderal at this moment and I think its system is pretty good without core attributes.

[J1M]

---

@J1M @WhiteShark what's your opinion on this? It appears to have been from feedback to 5E from a 4E player, but an opinion fairly widely held by 4E players.

I think ability scores stopped being interesting when they stopped being randomly assigned values. (And then you picked a class that you could make work.)

There isn't really an interesting choice associated with them. I can't think of more than two classes in Pathfinder Kingmaker where you wouldn't want to put all of your ability boosts into the same ability.

When some classes were more dependent on multiple attributes there was a bit of interesting tension but whining has removed that from the game at this point. Now everything is "balanced" (boring).

It also strains the veremicilitude (which is apparently important to people playing a half-centaur with purple hair AND the OSR crowd) for a human fighter to somehow have the strength of an adult dragon without the involvement of magic.

I mentioned in another thread that I think race should be as important as class (aka power source + party role) and instead of trying squeeze out a 5% advantage on a die roll the combination of these choices should define the tools you have available to solve challenges.

What's your opinion of ability scores(stats) in games like Fallout or Underrail?

I enjoyed trying to max them out in Fallout but that required prior knowledge that something like power armor sets STR to a flat value instead of providing a boost.

As with basically all similar systems STR is inferior to AGI, which is fine if you know that and not if you don't. The most egregious example of nerds resenting STR is probably Pathfinder where heavy armor requires extra feats to use, makes you move slower, removes the benefits of DEX, lowers chance to succeed at skills, and provides less AC than unarmored options. Then on top of that there is also a special exception that allows dodge AC to stack differently from all other stats. I say Pathfinder is worse than 3.5 because it was a revision to the rules and they either didn't consider this at all or decided it was the way things should be.

At the end of the day, if character building is just a series of traps for players that is fine, the game can be about identifying those. But it would be better if the choice was between interesting toolkits instead of a choice that works and a choice that doesn't. (Which is different than "balance")

[J1M]

Here's a concrete example of what I'm talking about. Assume this game has a party of adventurers and the level cap is 10 for the sake of example.

The dwarf race is very grounded to the earth. The elves are connected to folklore creatures.

The dwarf starts out sturdy and as he levels up his body becomes impervious and more like living granite.
Level 1: Immune to knockback
Level 2-10: Immune to poison, disease, bleed, ability drain, charm, sleep, paralysis, stun, curses

The elf is fluid, as if he is not entirely tethered to reality.
Level 1: Short-range teleport ability
Level 2-10: Teleport increases in range with each level

Both of these tools can be used in combat and to bypass environmental challenges as they become more powerful. And would be differently-useful when combined with various classes. For example, the teleport can be used both defensively to get out of danger, but also offensively to hit softer targets in the back line or to chase down a target. Immunity to status conditions could be combined in interesting ways as well, such as standing in a Cloud Kill spell or to bypass the drawbacks of Blood Magic.

I would also discard this idea that everyone needs to be providing the same damage per round. I think it is more interesting if the Thief brings basically nothing but a liability to combat but allows you to find additional treasure rewards. Maybe your adventuring guild has a dozen characters in it, and you bring a different set of 6 depending on what you will face. Not because of some arbitrary exhaustion mechanics, but because each of them provide such powerful and narrowly useful bonuses that you want to feel smart for switching things around.

[UltraFan123]

When some classes were more dependent on multiple attributes there was a bit of interesting tension but whining has removed that from the game at this point. Now everything is "balanced" (boring).

This is how I feel about the change made to [Paladin] after Pathfinder 1e adapted it from 3.5.

Basically, in 3.5 paladin was a MAD - Multiple Attribute Dependent - class since it required high Charisma for most of its class abilities but it also required at least a Wisdom score of 14 because that was the spellcasting stat.

Now in Pathfinder the paladin is a SAD - Single Attribute Dependent - class since the spellcasting stat was moved to Cha and so now the paladin can get away with having a low Wisdom stat, which if you ask me it doesn't makes any **** sense for a warrior of justice to not have a reason to be wise.

[logincrash]

When some classes were more dependent on multiple attributes there was a bit of interesting tension but whining has removed that from the game at this point. Now everything is "balanced" (boring).

This is how I feel about the change made to [Paladin] after Pathfinder 1e adapted it from 3.5.

Basically, in 3.5 paladin was a MAD - Multiple Attribute Dependent - class since it required high Charisma for most of its class abilities but it also required at least a Wisdom score of 14 because that was the spellcasting stat.

Now in Pathfinder the paladin is a SAD - Single Attribute Dependent - class since the spellcasting stat was moved to Cha and so now the paladin can get away with having a low Wisdom stat, which if you ask me it doesn't makes any **** sense for a warrior of justice to not have a reason to be wise.

That stems from ****** heathens and ****** reddit atheists dragging the class away from God and going with "self-righteous and self-deluded moron" for the Paladin archetype. That's because they can't imagine a person genuinely devoted to God, so they have to go with the "ackshually, a Paladin's power comes from his devotion to his PRINCIPLES/OATH, not his faith!"

[DagothGeas5]

When some classes were more dependent on multiple attributes there was a bit of interesting tension but whining has removed that from the game at this point. Now everything is "balanced" (boring).

This is how I feel about the change made to [Paladin] after Pathfinder 1e adapted it from 3.5.

Basically, in 3.5 paladin was a MAD - Multiple Attribute Dependent - class since it required high Charisma for most of its class abilities but it also required at least a Wisdom score of 14 because that was the spellcasting stat.

Now in Pathfinder the paladin is a SAD - Single Attribute Dependent - class since the spellcasting stat was moved to Cha and so now the paladin can get away with having a low Wisdom stat, which if you ask me it doesn't makes any **** sense for a warrior of justice to not have a reason to be wise.

That stems from ****** heathens and ****** reddit atheists dragging the class away from God and going with "self-righteous and self-deluded moron" for the Paladin archetype. That's because they can't imagine a person genuinely devoted to God, so they have to go with the "ackshually, a Paladin's power comes from his devotion to his PRINCIPLES/OATH, not his faith!"

I think it is also due to how accepting that people of faith get power from God and strength from their faith implies their faith is real, which is like getting burned by holy water for people like that. Reminds me of how the symbol of the cross and the power of God over vampires in older movies has been getting shunned or mocked in vampire-themed works.

[rusty_shackleford]

Do any of the 3.5e(or pathfinder?) games include classes from the weeaboo fightan magic book?

[Irenaeus]

Do any of the 3.5e(or pathfinder?) games include classes from the weeaboo fightan magic book?

Don't they all have shaolin kung-fu monks?

[rusty_shackleford]

Do any of the 3.5e(or pathfinder?) games include classes from the weeaboo fightan magic book?

Don't they all have shaolin kung-fu monks?

weeaboo fightan magic has fighters with fightan magic

[Lhynn]

Do any of the 3.5e(or pathfinder?) games include classes from the weeaboo fightan magic book?

Only neverwinter with the PRC mod. A lot of them made it in.

[UltraFan123]

Some mods for the sequel NWN 2 also add the Tome of Battle abilities for the warriors.

[Roguey]

Pillars of Eternity gets a 10th anniversary patch https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/13457 ... 5-is-live/

The Balance Man forever balancing.

[Rand]

Do any of the 3.5e(or pathfinder?) games include classes from the weeaboo fightan magic book?

Don't they all have shaolin kung-fu monks?

He's talking about the late-3.5 edition supplement "Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords" where fighters and other martial classes were given weapon magic "epic abilities" that could do more than just hurt people.
It was the first step into what would become 4th edition class abilities.

[rusty_shackleford]

Do any of the 3.5e(or pathfinder?) games include classes from the weeaboo fightan magic book?

Don't they all have shaolin kung-fu monks?

He's talking about the late-3.5 edition supplement "The Book of Nine Swords" where fighters were given weapon magic "epic abilities" that could do more than just hurt people.
It was the first step into what would become 4th edition class abilities.

"ahhh nooo you can't just make fighters do more than attack, they must be subservient to casters ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

[Rand]

Don't they all have shaolin kung-fu monks?

He's talking about the late-3.5 edition supplement "Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords" where fighters were given weapon magic "epic abilities" that could do more than just hurt people.
It was the first step into what would become 4th edition class abilities.

"ahhh nooo you can't just make fighters do more than attack, they must be subservient to casters ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"

It's not mutually exclusive. Both approaches were wrong.
ESPECIALLY because this approach led to 4th edition.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Square axes yet another mobile game, this time their tactics game Final Fantasy War of the Visions, which had character art provided by Akihiko Yoshida and Hideo Minaba's CyDesignation. Funny given how Square was seemingly proud enough of WotV to add the main hero's outfit to FF14's cash shop a few weeks ago.

[Acrux]

Pillars of Eternity gets a 10th anniversary patch https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/13457 ... 5-is-live/

The Balance Man forever balancing.

It also says they are adding a turn-based mode later this year. I can't wait to fight hundreds of xaurips very slowly.

[Vergil]

Character creators that use sliders but don't give numerical values so that you can easily revert changes should die.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Another year, another Pokemon game of unacceptable visual quality for the biggest franchise ever.

[Vergil]

To be fair it is a game for babies

[Rand]

Character creators that use sliders but don't give numerical values so that you can easily revert changes should die.

I particularly loathe the ones that only have a next and previous button so you have to count around the whole set to even have a clue how many there are.
And sometimes there's like 30+