January: Tunnels & Trolls: Crusaders of Khazan

[Watser]

► be careful I just read that there are ways to deadlock yourself by losing items.

A demon gives you a quest to recover his jeweled eye from a dragon. If you solve the quest, you can't win the game, because you also need the eye to awaken Khazan. You'd better not use the Bag of Winds to escape from storms on the ocean, because you need it in the final area.

Will keep this in mind. Just found the windbag and acquired the demon's eye.

► Show Spoiler

To be fair,the dragon explicitly says that the eye is needed to awaken the sleeper so giving it to the demon just smells like bait but of course you never know.

► Show Spoiler

I stole the demon's remaining eye

[Watser]

I find it difficult to put it into words just how frustrating, unfinished, disjointed, untested, and uglyass mess of a game this is.
This is the last time @rusty_shackleford gets to suggest a game.

[Watser]

For anyone curious, Scorpia's review on the game can be found in Computer Gaming World issue 79 - https://www.cgwmuseum.org/galleries/issues/cgw_79.pdf
And CRPGAddict has likewise documented his frustrations about the game - https://crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2015/04 ... ating.html
There is a genuinely good game hidden here, potentially even a timeless classic, but it's buried in bugs, random gotcha events, aggressive level scaling, and a hundred ways of breaking the game.

[Tangerine]

This was rough. Restarted multiple times in the last two months because it just wasn't clicking, so I'd move on to another game. Finally got through it, though I ended up using the clue book because 1. lawnmowing every screen is not fun and 2. npcs give you bad info.

► Show Spoiler

Wakey wakey.

tnt_01.png

The staff did not, in fact, talk to me at all.

tnt_02.png

Hurray, I'm a crusader!

tnt_03.png

No idea what score is based on. Time to complete?

tnt_04.png

Thoughts:
- The only mechanic of value in this game was the language system, since it often had a significant effect on event outcomes. It was also fun to see how an event you triggered earlier turned out if you learned the language.
- I absolutely hate the naming scheme for spells and items. I was surprised to learn it was an American's fault, because it feels like bad Bong humor people pretend is clever.
- Once you understand how dead simple the stat system is, the game is really easy to abuse.
- The events of the game didn't feel cohesive. Looking it up, it seems like it was a bunch of modules stitched together.
- The lack of equipment took a lot of fun out of exploration.
- I like that the game has horses, but it keeps defaulting you to Walking, so I ended up not bothering with them.

Tips:
- For the most part, you only need to raise Str and Dex to meet the minimum requirements to use gear. Once you hit those minimums and you have more than 30 CON, start dumping your level gains into SP if you're below 20. Once you hit 20 speed, dump it into LK every level; it gives you more Adds, which helps a lot in combat.
- There is no reason not to dual-wield weapons. Do that from the get go.
- Rogues are not equipment limited like they are in D&D - you can kit them out just like fighters in heavy mail and weapons.
- There's a fortune teller in Knor that can raise your stats with the right draws. There's also a trainer in the same town that can raise your strength. This can save you from wasting some level gains.
- You have access to the best equipment money can buy in Gull. If you're expecting to find a town with better gear later on, expect to be disappointed.
- Don't grind for levels beyond level 8/9 if you don't have to. The game wasn't too difficult for me.

[1998]

That's firmly dead last on my to-play AG list

[J1M]

Today I learned the box art in this thread is a censored version.

[J1M]

Is there a store that sells bows in Gull?

EDIT: Yes, the archer's guild does. At first I thought they just sold archers.

[J1M]

Couldn't find a world map so I made one.

[J1M]

@Tangerine @Watser

Need some help. Do you need a horn to access the uncertain isle cave? If so, where is it located?

[rusty_shackleford]

@Tangerine @Watser

Need some help. Do you need a horn to access the uncertain isle cave? If so, where is it located?

Did you check the cluebook?
https://archive.org/details/extras_msdo ... 7/mode/2up

[Tweed]

@Tangerine @Watser

Need some help. Do you need a horn to access the uncertain isle cave? If so, where is it located?

Did you check the cluebook?
https://archive.org/details/extras_msdo ... 7/mode/2up

Look at Mr.Cheater over here.

[Tangerine]

@Tangerine @Watser

Need some help. Do you need a horn to access the uncertain isle cave? If so, where is it located?

You get the Horn of Uhlong from a healer in the City of Khazan. The clue book says you can fight a dragon for it too, but not sure where that dragon is.

[J1M]

@Tangerine @Watser

Need some help. Do you need a horn to access the uncertain isle cave? If so, where is it located?

Did you check the cluebook?
https://archive.org/details/extras_msdo ... 7/mode/2up

The only mention of it in the cluebook is a description of its stats.

[J1M]

@Tangerine @Watser

Need some help. Do you need a horn to access the uncertain isle cave? If so, where is it located?

You get the Horn of Uhlong from a healer in the City of Khazan. The clue book says you can fight a dragon for it too, but not sure where that dragon is.

I may have encountered a game-breaking bug. For the encounter that gates the horn you have 6 fights in the dark. From what I understand, you are supposed to run from half of these to demonstrate being a human-adjacent sympathizer. Unfortunately, it seems like no matter what I do once the encounters are over the half-elf decides I don't love half-breeds enough and the event is failed.

Before work I tried sparing the werebear/werewolf/centaur and killing the beasts. Tried the opposite of that. Tried killing everything, tried running from everything. Tried sparing the bear and worg since maybe the were creatures can turn into those(?). I guess I didn't try blocking for 30 rounds to 'win' like that encounter in the The Digs.

Also went to the earliest save I have in case something I did recently flagged me as an orc sympathizer, but no luck.

Hint book says to try sparing-killing-sparing-killing-sparing-killing, which is the first approach I tried. Any ideas? Is there a save-game editor to add the horn to inventory?

EDIT: Also, do you have a different clue book? What page does it say that item can be obtained from a dragon?

[Tangerine]

@Tangerine @Watser

Need some help. Do you need a horn to access the uncertain isle cave? If so, where is it located?

You get the Horn of Uhlong from a healer in the City of Khazan. The clue book says you can fight a dragon for it too, but not sure where that dragon is.

I may have encountered a game-breaking bug. For the encounter that gates the horn you have 6 fights in the dark. From what I understand, you are supposed to run from half of these to demonstrate being a human-adjacent sympathizer. Unfortunately, it seems like no matter what I do once the encounters are over the half-elf decides I don't love half-breeds enough and the event is failed.

Before work I tried sparing the werebear/werewolf/centaur and killing the beasts. Tried the opposite of that. Tried killing everything, tried running from everything. Tried sparing the bear and worg since maybe the were creatures can turn into those(?). I guess I didn't try blocking for 30 rounds to 'win' like that encounter in the The Digs.

Also went to the earliest save I have in case something I did recently flagged me as an orc sympathizer, but no luck.

Hint book says to try sparing-killing-sparing-killing-sparing-killing, which is the first approach I tried. Any ideas? Is there a save-game editor to add the horn to inventory?

EDIT: Also, do you have a different clue book? What page does it say that item can be obtained from a dragon?

I remember that part being a little funky and needing to redo it a few times, but don't recall what the hangup was. Try running from all of them?

I used this clue book: https://www.mocagh.org/nwc/tunnelstrolls-cluebook.pdf

On the page for Uncertain Isle (B2), it says "2) Home of the Dragon! If you defeat him, you can get either the Horn of Lakri Muss or the Horn of Ulhong."

[J1M]

You get the Horn of Uhlong from a healer in the City of Khazan. The clue book says you can fight a dragon for it too, but not sure where that dragon is.

I may have encountered a game-breaking bug. For the encounter that gates the horn you have 6 fights in the dark. From what I understand, you are supposed to run from half of these to demonstrate being a human-adjacent sympathizer. Unfortunately, it seems like no matter what I do once the encounters are over the half-elf decides I don't love half-breeds enough and the event is failed.

Before work I tried sparing the werebear/werewolf/centaur and killing the beasts. Tried the opposite of that. Tried killing everything, tried running from everything. Tried sparing the bear and worg since maybe the were creatures can turn into those(?). I guess I didn't try blocking for 30 rounds to 'win' like that encounter in the The Digs.

Also went to the earliest save I have in case something I did recently flagged me as an orc sympathizer, but no luck.

Hint book says to try sparing-killing-sparing-killing-sparing-killing, which is the first approach I tried. Any ideas? Is there a save-game editor to add the horn to inventory?

EDIT: Also, do you have a different clue book? What page does it say that item can be obtained from a dragon?

I remember that part being a little funky and needing to redo it a few times, but don't recall what the hangup was. Try running from all of them?

I used this clue book: https://www.mocagh.org/nwc/tunnelstrolls-cluebook.pdf

On the page for Uncertain Isle (B2), it says "2) Home of the Dragon! If you defeat him, you can get either the Horn of Lakri Muss or the Horn of Ulhong."

Nice of them to plan a secondary way to get those items. Unfortunately, after visiting every part of B2, I can say there is no dragon or event with a hint about how to find a dragon.

Plan to try a couple more things before invoking the game breaking bug exception for the badge.

[Tangerine]

I may have encountered a game-breaking bug. For the encounter that gates the horn you have 6 fights in the dark. From what I understand, you are supposed to run from half of these to demonstrate being a human-adjacent sympathizer. Unfortunately, it seems like no matter what I do once the encounters are over the half-elf decides I don't love half-breeds enough and the event is failed.

Before work I tried sparing the werebear/werewolf/centaur and killing the beasts. Tried the opposite of that. Tried killing everything, tried running from everything. Tried sparing the bear and worg since maybe the were creatures can turn into those(?). I guess I didn't try blocking for 30 rounds to 'win' like that encounter in the The Digs.

Also went to the earliest save I have in case something I did recently flagged me as an orc sympathizer, but no luck.

Hint book says to try sparing-killing-sparing-killing-sparing-killing, which is the first approach I tried. Any ideas? Is there a save-game editor to add the horn to inventory?

EDIT: Also, do you have a different clue book? What page does it say that item can be obtained from a dragon?

I remember that part being a little funky and needing to redo it a few times, but don't recall what the hangup was. Try running from all of them?

I used this clue book: https://www.mocagh.org/nwc/tunnelstrolls-cluebook.pdf

On the page for Uncertain Isle (B2), it says "2) Home of the Dragon! If you defeat him, you can get either the Horn of Lakri Muss or the Horn of Ulhong."

Nice of them to plan add a secondary way to get those items. Unfortunately, after visiting every part of B2, I can say there is no dragon or event with a hint about how to find a dragon.

Plan to try a couple more things before invoking the game breaking bug exception for the badge.

Try looking into the arena stuff in the same town. It might affect your standing.

[J1M]

I remember that part being a little funky and needing to redo it a few times, but don't recall what the hangup was. Try running from all of them?

I used this clue book: https://www.mocagh.org/nwc/tunnelstrolls-cluebook.pdf

On the page for Uncertain Isle (B2), it says "2) Home of the Dragon! If you defeat him, you can get either the Horn of Lakri Muss or the Horn of Ulhong."

Nice of them to plan add a secondary way to get those items. Unfortunately, after visiting every part of B2, I can say there is no dragon or event with a hint about how to find a dragon.

Plan to try a couple more things before invoking the game breaking bug exception for the badge.

Try looking into the arena stuff in the same town. It might affect your standing.

Thanks. There was another horn mentioned in the clue book. I tracked that down and it was able to be used as a substitute. (Gift for rescuing a farmer's family.) Never did find that dragon.

[J1M]

Tunnels & Trolls: Crusaders of Khazan has one of the most obtuse starting experiences of the Adventurer's Guild titles. If you leave the city before level 5 or 6 you'll be killed by wild dogs. Many of the easy to find static events are way above what a low level character can succeed at. Luck is the primary martial stat. (Not particularly opposed to this, but I'm glad Tangerine mentioned it because I don't think anything in the game alludes to this.) You are supposed to ignore the starting island and charter a boat ride to the mainland. There's lots of events that kill outright or put debilitating conditions on your party (cursed attributes, removed limbs). At random times I noticed that all of my gold had been removed.

Combat was strange. With some level ups, armor, and luck my fighter went from easily dying to basically untouchable... unless someone attacked without a weapon to push him slightly. Then he would fall unconscious quite easily. And as you can imagine from the tone above, there's no way in combat to cure that condition.

One thing I did like is that it seems like the designers had more than one way to obtain key items, or more than one key item to progress the main quest. Aside from that, the design is quite bad. There's many cases of important locations just being at random mundane spots in the wilderness and it appears people were supposed to buy the clue book or visit every square inch of the world map like some kind of landscaping contractor mowing a lawn. The friction created by the food mechanic implies that one should not do this, however.

I don't really agree that the language element was good. It just meant that I was secretly blocked in my progress until I sat in town for a month because you can somehow learn a language in one day, but the language school only teaches one language each day of the month. I'm open to a language mechanic, such as finding a temporary companion that can speak a language to get better event results. This was more of a required gold sink that wasn't explained.

Another mechanic this game features is level-scaling. Something I rather dislike in general, but here you can see I left a party member dead to keep every fight from being even more of a slog than it was. (There's discussion online that the level scaling is based on the average level of your party, but a dead member counts as zero for the calculation.) I also noticed some ways of generating unlimited XP, such as repeating events or unlocking the same door over and over, but I'm not sure using those is a good idea given the level scaling.

The only reason I'd recommend this to someone is if you want a challenge. There's basically no information about this online, and even with the clue book in hand you are in for a painful challenge. If that sounds like your ideal evening, you'll will want a fighter to kill things, a thief to unlock things, and a wizard. I only really used the wizard to cast light or fear in combat. Spells were expensive and most of them didn't do much for me. Perhaps I needed to increase the wizard's luck to make them work better.

► Show Spoiler

@Oyster Sauce

[SpellSword]

Well done @J1M!