Dragon Age™: The Veilguard is a Return To Form

[logincrash]

That whole exchange reminded me of a thought I’ve had for a while now.

Why are there female Grey Wardens? Given what Darkspawn do to female captives (and if I remember correctly they go out of their way to capture women alive for that very reason) it stands to reason that any female Warden going down to the Deep Roads on her Calling would just be adding another Broodmother to the hordes. The Joining infects you with the Taint and just as a Warden can sense Darkspawn, so too can Darkspawn sense Wardens in turn. Like I get that maybe after a couple centuries the Wardens need to cast as wide a net as possible when recruiting but even with that, having women undergoing the Joining seems foolish and counterproductive.

Yeah, the grimdark nature of the setting has always naturally conflicted with the devs' progressive "women can be warriors, homosexuality is not a big deal, etc." values. The only way a woman should ever be allowed to Join the Grey Wardens is if she's a mage. Anything else is a net loss for humanity (and by that I mean all untainted humanoids).

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

It’s interesting how the discourse has changed over this decade in that characters like Dorian was seen as poorly written character at its release to now people praising it as a well written gay character in the current year.

Really shows how bad things have gotten both in writing and the overton window shifting radically to the left.

[rusty_shackleford]

It’s interesting how the discourse has changed over this decade in that characters like Dorian was seen as poorly written character at its release to now people praising it as a well written gay character in the current year.

Really shows how bad things have gotten both in writing and the overton window shifting radically to the left.

Dorian's quest was poorly written because all he had to do was have kids. That's all his father wanted from him, he seemed quite fine if he was discretely homosexual.
He otherwise ends up being one of the better written characters in the entire game, it's just a very hamfisted social agenda message that falls flat to anyone not part of the cult. Yes, being someone of his station has obligations, deal with it.

[fkirenicus]

That whole exchange reminded me of a thought I’ve had for a while now.

Why are there female Grey Wardens? Given what Darkspawn do to female captives (and if I remember correctly they go out of their way to capture women alive for that very reason) it stands to reason that any female Warden going down to the Deep Roads on her Calling would just be adding another Broodmother to the hordes. The Joining infects you with the Taint and just as a Warden can sense Darkspawn, so too can Darkspawn sense Wardens in turn. Like I get that maybe after a couple centuries the Wardens need to cast as wide a net as possible when recruiting but even with that, having women undergoing the Joining seems foolish and counterproductive.

Well, the point is that they exist to kill darkspawn. So, it's just to kill enough of the creatures before one gets taken oneself. The trick for a female warden on her Calling is of course to actually get killed, and not overwhelmed and captured, for example. Besides, if memory serves, something about the Taint also makes "changes" to a grey warden's reproductive abilities anyway. Certain choices in DAO (Alistair becomes king alone) reveals this, if I remember correctly: if both male and female are wardens, they are likely not able to conceive at all. Even one warden makes it highly unlikely that a child will be conceived if one has "intercourse". The question remains, though: does this hinder the female grey warden to reproduce if she ends up a broodmother? That we do not know.
(Morrigan's ritual: magic involved )

However, since those who become broodmothers without exception appear to be (at the beginning) untainted women, one might presume the Taint "protects" a female grey warden from this fate in some way (this is speculation, given what e.g., Hespith says. It may be something might be given in The Calling about this as well, but it's years since I read that).
Also, remember that at one point a warden in the late stage appears to other darkspawn as a darkspawn (or ghoul) him-/herself. E.g., Larius. Maybe female wardens simply aren't interesting to the darkspawn if that is the case.

Remember, Fiona's was a very special (so special that it becomes improbable, actually) case: she was able to conceive Alistair, but she is also the first and only warden who has been able to simply "quit" being a warden. Supposedly she would have to fear becoming a broodmother, yes, because of this. Other female wardens who "haven't jumped ship" would perhaps be (somewhat) safe(r).

Interesting question, though, for it leads to another: why do they let women in among the Legion of the Dead? Because they are NOT tainted/"protected" by the Taint, and thus are very vulnerable to the fact that darkspawn want to create broodmothers. That's what they try to do to Sigrun when you first meet her, right?

[Reichspepe]

Feminism and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race ( in Dragon Age )

And also; Sten's "Can they?" is so **** funny and based at the same time.

[fkirenicus]

Feminism and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race ( in Dragon Age )

For all races:
dwarves - genlocks
humans - hurlocks
elves - sharlocks (shriekers)
qunari - ogres

[Reichspepe]

Feminism and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race ( in Dragon Age )

For all races:
dwarves - genlocks
humans - hurlocks
elves - sharlocks (shriekers)
qunari - ogres

Didn't want to ruin the flow of the statement

[Oyster Sauce]

Feminism and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race ( in Dragon Age )

For all races:
dwarves - genlocks
humans - hurlocks
elves - sharlocks (shriekers)
qunari - ogres

Huh. I figured they were werewolves.

[Reichspepe]

Feminism and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race ( in Dragon Age )

For all races:
dwarves - genlocks
humans - hurlocks
elves - sharlocks (shriekers)
qunari - ogres

Huh. I figured they were werewolves.

Werewolves are cursed humans.

[fkirenicus]

elves - sharlocks (shriekers)


Huh. I figured they were werewolves.

No, in DAO the werewolves of the Brecilian Forest were the descendants of humans cursed by the elven Keeper Zathrian. They started spreading lycanthropy among the elves, yes, when they begun attacking the elves. And who but the warden could end the curse?

[Reichspepe]

"But you can change your gender though, no worries "

[fkirenicus]

"But you can change your gender though, no worries "

This is why we never must allow Bioware to create a "remake" of DAO. They will remove the dialog files of Sten, making him mute.

[PixiGreen]

I would not bring Fiona here. Yes, I know she was canonized in DAI, but in DAO, nothing hinted that she was Alistair's mother. Later BW fell in love with the idea and Fiona became one of those absurd supernatural in every way someone's Mary Sue.

Infertility of Wardens of both genders indeed was established right from the start (DAO). Indeed, women wardens are useless to darkspawn. Dwarves, though... Most likely simply was not thought through well enough. Or can be justified with "knowing their potential fate women would fight particularly fierce" (don't forget, it's fantasy, women are as effective in a fight as men).

Btw, in the case of Wardens and Legion, they are fighting Darkspawn not an army of male barbarians. And numbers are numbers, the more able bodies are on the field, the stronger the army, and even a woman can handle a crossbow. The main reason women were not used left and right on the battlefields in RL (once a suitable level of development of easily handled weapons was reached) is the necessity to reproduce. No nation could afford the loss of a source of new soldiers and workers. Remove the death at birth for mothers and children (with magic or technology), add enhancers for strength/speed/whatnot (again, with magic or technology) - and you get bigger armies you can throw at the enemy.

[Rand]

Why are there female Grey Wardens?

There aren't any, as far as I know.
While the game allows you to make a female non-mage for some reason, I don't believe a single female grey warden is ever mentioned.
(As usual, I ignore everything after Origins as it is simply real-world darkspawn tainted nonsense.)

[Reichspepe]

I would not bring Fiona here. Yes, I know she was canonized in DAI, but in DAO, nothing hinted that she was Alistair's mother. Later BW fell in love with the idea and Fiona became one of those absurd supernatural in every way someone's Mary Sue.

Infertility of Wardens of both genders indeed was established right from the start (DAO). Indeed, women wardens are useless to darkspawn. Dwarves, though... Most likely simply was not thought through well enough. Or can be justified with "knowing their potential fate women would fight particularly fierce" (don't forget, it's fantasy, women are as effective in a fight as men).

Btw, in the case of Wardens and Legion, they are fighting Darkspawn not an army of male barbarians. And numbers are numbers, the more able bodies are on the field, the stronger the army, and even a woman can handle a crossbow. The main reason women were not used left and right on the battlefields in RL (once a suitable level of development of easily handled weapons was reached) is the necessity to reproduce. No nation could afford the loss of a source of new soldiers and workers. Remove the death at birth for mothers and children (with magic or technology), add enhancers for strength/speed/whatnot (again, with magic or technology) - and you get bigger armies you can throw at the enemy.

Women are also physically and psychologically not suited for war, not to mention other things like being harmful to unit cohesion and performance.

[logincrash]

Why are there female Grey Wardens?

There aren't any, as far as I know.
While the game allows you to make a female non-mage for some reason, I don't believe a single female grey warden is ever mentioned.
(As usual, I ignore everything after Origins as it is simply real-world darkspawn tainted nonsense.)

Sophia Dryden was a Grey Warden commander. Sigrun and Velanna can be made into Grey Wardens.
I like the "real-world darkspawn" moniker.

[WhiteShark]

The main reason women were not used left and right on the battlefields in RL (once a suitable level of development of easily handled weapons was reached) is the necessity to reproduce. No nation could afford the loss of a source of new soldiers and workers. Remove the death at birth for mothers and children (with magic or technology), add enhancers for strength/speed/whatnot (again, with magic or technology) - and you get bigger armies you can throw at the enemy.

This overlooks the mental differences between men and women and the unit cohesion problems women bring. Even if women were physically the equals of men, even if they had the same reaction times and dynamic spatial perception, they would still not possess the decessiveness, boldness, and aggression necessary for combat. Actually, even most men don't:

The Pl in action is almost invariably twenty-two strong and of whatever Regt good or bad, every Pl can be analysed as follows:
Six gutful men who will go anywhere and do anything, 12 'sheep' who will follow a short distance behind if they are well led, and 9-6 who will run away.
I have discussed these figures with many people and they all agree, although there is some slight disagreement on figures. These figures are roughly accurate as shown by the number of Court-Martials for running away that follow every Campaign.

How many gutful women do you suppose there are? Here's an excerpt from a report about German recruits on the Eastern Front during WWII:

1. When the first shots were fired, the recruits buried themselves in the snow and were useless for battle. When the officers tried to encourage them, they pretended to be dead. When the Russians brought in tanks, they got up and ran away.
2. In another battle, recruits, upon hearing the first shots, hid behind cover and started firing their rifles in the air uselessly.

If male recruits are like this, how do you think female ones would fare? I don't think reproductive differences is anywhere near the top of the list for reasons women are almost never fielded in battle.

[fkirenicus]

I would not bring Fiona here. Yes, I know she was canonized in DAI, but in DAO, nothing hinted that she was Alistair's mother. Later BW fell in love with the idea and Fiona became one of those absurd supernatural in every way someone's Mary Sue.

In fact, she is introduced in the "prequel" to Awakening, which is the book The Calling. It's years since I read though, so don't remember very much of it. But you can find a synopsis on the DA Wiki.
https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Drago ... he_Calling

[Cipher]

We will never have such realistic and based companions again. Only sterile woke ****.

He's right, and allowing female warriors was WOKE.

That whole exchange reminded me of a thought I’ve had for a while now.

Why are there female Grey Wardens? Given what Darkspawn do to female captives (and if I remember correctly they go out of their way to capture women alive for that very reason) it stands to reason that any female Warden going down to the Deep Roads on her Calling would just be adding another Broodmother to the hordes. The Joining infects you with the Taint and just as a Warden can sense Darkspawn, so too can Darkspawn sense Wardens in turn. Like I get that maybe after a couple centuries the Wardens need to cast as wide a net as possible when recruiting but even with that, having women undergoing the Joining seems foolish and counterproductive.

Correct me if I am wrong here, but aren't Grey Wardens immune to the taint? So, that would mean female GW can't become broodmothers, right?

[fkirenicus]

Correct me if I am wrong here, but aren't Grey Wardens immune to the taint? So, that would mean female GW can't become broodmothers, right?

Technically, they are tainted themselves - they will at one point become ghouls (hence: the Calling, as in the "ritual", not the book ), but until that time they are protected from the Taint, yes. Some of them also learn to "tap into it"; that way they can know what the darkspawn/archdemon are planning (read: why Duncan told Cailan to travel to Ostagar).

[Cipher]

I would not bring Fiona here. Yes, I know she was canonized in DAI, but in DAO, nothing hinted that she was Alistair's mother. Later BW fell in love with the idea and Fiona became one of those absurd supernatural in every way someone's Mary Sue.

Infertility of Wardens of both genders indeed was established right from the start (DAO). Indeed, women wardens are useless to darkspawn. Dwarves, though... Most likely simply was not thought through well enough. Or can be justified with "knowing their potential fate women would fight particularly fierce" (don't forget, it's fantasy, women are as effective in a fight as men).

Btw, in the case of Wardens and Legion, they are fighting Darkspawn not an army of male barbarians. And numbers are numbers, the more able bodies are on the field, the stronger the army, and even a woman can handle a crossbow. The main reason women were not used left and right on the battlefields in RL (once a suitable level of development of easily handled weapons was reached) is the necessity to reproduce. No nation could afford the loss of a source of new soldiers and workers. Remove the death at birth for mothers and children (with magic or technology), add enhancers for strength/speed/whatnot (again, with magic or technology) - and you get bigger armies you can throw at the enemy.

Women are also physically and psychologically not suited for war, not to mention other things like being harmful to unit cohesion and performance.

Aaaaaand, the ugly truth that everyone, everyone knows but only the honest dare to admit is the female's most crippling weakness. Periods. From the regular malaise, to cramps, stomach aches, and overall vastly reduced performance in all tasks physical as shown by the army data. Also, the bleeding itself and how hormones affect their mindset, mood and other key mental faculties that for a warrior should never be compromised.

In history, the few women that took arms were usually a defensive force. A "last line", if you will. A military force on the march can only move as fast as their slower members, meaning that women with their smaller height and gait will slow them down at their best, never mind during their periods. Just like IRL, a wife and mother that learns how to use firearms to protect the homestead is based. A "stronk" woman that thinks she deserves to be a Navy SEAL to "sHaTtEr tHe GlAsS cEiLiNg" is just a deluded teenager trying to block the sun with her finger tips.

[PixiGreen]

I would not bring Fiona here. Yes, I know she was canonized in DAI, but in DAO, nothing hinted that she was Alistair's mother. Later BW fell in love with the idea and Fiona became one of those absurd supernatural in every way someone's Mary Sue.

In fact, she is introduced in the "prequel" to Awakening, which is the book The Calling. It's years since I read though, so don't remember very much of it. But you can find a synopsis on the DA Wiki.
https://dragonage.fandom.com/wiki/Drago ... he_Calling

All true but does not change anything. That is why I hate books and comics "expanding" on the lore while introducing new characters and contradicting the in-game lore. I understand the wish to follow ASOIAF but Gayder is no Martin in skills and creativeness. Also, consistency in anything was always Gayder's weak point.

Sorry, it's an old sore spot of mine, discussed to death years ago. Nothing new can be said. I suspect canonizing Fiona in DAI (officially in-game) was yet another bone thrown to the guy who was about to leave (and we will never know how voluntary that leave was).

[fkirenicus]

All true but does not change anything. That is why I hate books and comics "expanding" on the lore while introducing new characters and contradicting the in-game lore. I understand the wish to follow ASOIAF but Gayder is no Martin in skills and creativeness. Also, consistency in anything was always Gayder's weak point.

Sorry, it's an old sore spot of mine, discussed to death years ago. Nothing new can be said. I suspect canonizing Fiona in DAI (officially in-game) was yet another bone thrown to the guy who was about to leave (and we will never know how voluntary that leave was).

I see what you mean. I do accept The Stolen Throne and The Calling as prequels to DAO and DAA respectively, but it ends there for me. From DAI and its prequel books (Asunder, Masked Empire) on the entire thing derails completely, though it actually started doing so already with DAE.

[Rand]

Sophia Dryden was a Grey Warden commander. Sigrun and Velanna can be made into Grey Wardens.

Yes, I had forgotten about that abberation in Awakenings.

As for the other two, again, the game lets you, but the Grey Wardens wouldn't do it.

I like the "real-world darkspawn" moniker.

Cheers!

[logincrash]

Sophia Dryden was a Grey Warden commander. Sigrun and Velanna can be made into Grey Wardens.

Yes, I had forgotten about that abberation in Awakenings.
As for the other two, again, the game lets you, but the Grey Wardens wouldn't do it.

Sophia Dryden was in the Warden's Keep DLC. However, the DLC was released like a week after Origins did. That's not nearly enough time to write, voice, program, etc. the whole DLC from scratch, so it's must've been developed concurrently with the main game. It was probably cut out and sold separately at the behest of EA, just like the Javik day-one-DLC for ME3.
There's also Mhairi in Awakening. She dies during the Joining, but she did intend to become a Grey Warden.
But other than that I don't think we see any Grey Wardens besides Riordan, Duncan, and the two Wardens Duncan has with him during the Orzammar origin. And all of them are obviously male. So, the PC, Sophia, Sigrun, and Velanna are the only female Grey Wardens in the original game.

[Roguey]

Even one warden makes it highly unlikely that a child will be conceived if one has "intercourse". The question remains, though: does this hinder the female grey warden to reproduce if she ends up a broodmother? That we do not know.
(Morrigan's ritual: magic involved )

Morrigan ends up pregnant if you **** her even if you don't do the ritual, they went for the funny outcome.

[logincrash]

I'm not sure how true the claim of Warden infertility is. They lead pretty dangerous lives, even between the Blights, so it's not really conducive to starting a family.
While it's very much possible that they have harder time concieving, I don't think they're totally infertile. The Darkspawn themselves reproduce sexually (raping women they kidnap into broodmothers) and Grey Wardens aren't full-on Darkspawn.
There is also the aforementioned case of Morrigan getting pregnant without the ritual.

[Oyster Sauce]

Sophia Dryden was a Grey Warden commander. Sigrun and Velanna can be made into Grey Wardens.

Yes, I had forgotten about that abberation in Awakenings.
As for the other two, again, the game lets you, but the Grey Wardens wouldn't do it.

Sophia Dryden was in the Warden's Keep DLC. However, the DLC was released like a week after Origins did. That's not nearly enough time to write, voice, program, etc. the whole DLC from scratch, so it's must've been developed concurrently with the main game. It was probably cut out and sold separately at the behest of EA, just like the Javik day-one-DLC for ME3.
There's also Mhairi in Awakening. She dies during the Joining, but she did intend to become a Grey Warden.
But other than that I don't think we see any Grey Wardens besides Riordan, Duncan, and the two Wardens Duncan has with him during the Orzammar origin. And all of them are obviously male. So, the PC, Sophia, Sigrun, and Velanna are the only female Grey Wardens in the original game.

There's an elf lady grey warden in the opening cutscene

[logincrash]

There's an elf lady grey warden in the opening cutscene

Well there we go. I had thought that there might've been a female Warden or two in the Ostagar battle cinematic, but I completely forgot about the intro.
On the side note, the music is so awesome (in the proper sense of the word). 1:50 onward is nearly as epic as the Charge of the Rohirrim.
Veilguard doesn't have such amazing music. There's like one or two tracks that are somewhat memorable, while the rest is either complete mediocrity or ******* synth atop modern beat.

[Irenaeus]

Advanced grocery store clerk simulator.

My brother plays Advanced MTG cards store clerk simulator.