Should games start with a tutorial

[NotAI]

I say ... ... no. **** tutorials. Tutorials can get ******.

For games with complexity, they can never long enough. But they bore people off the game, so for revenue, they can never be short enough. Having to do tutorial twice also is what stops people from replaying.

In a recent video, Tim Cain talks about attribute design and solving the issue that people have no idea what different attributes and more or less points in them means at the start.

Well, that's always going to be unsolvable in a world where nobody reads.

People like thick but not when it's a thick manual.

So let the game start such that stats are all base 1, but it's not a tutorial. Ten minutes. Just plenty of monsters that are level 1. However, minimal explanations or cinematics. Meet different characters with higher stats. Teach by doing.

Then and only then let players create their "starting" stats. For example, with trainers.

[The_Mask]

The real problem is that when games made the "jump" from physical to digital, people stopped making manuals for them. Games should have manuals. Tutorials? Not as much.

But if you're not going to have a manual to your game, maybe do have a tutorial.

[Acrux]

I really miss manuals. I used to spend hours reading the really thick ones that would list all spells.

I think tutorials are best when they are a separate entry from the main page and have their own special mission set up to teach the basics. Forcing tutorials for things like camera controls or any tutorial that's mandatory before the game can start are the worst.

[GhostCow]

Egoraptor nailed everything that needs to be said about tutorials 11 years ago. This video should be required watching for any dev.

[MadPreacher]

Tutorials are must due to the lack of good manuals.

[KnightoftheWind]

Egoraptor nailed everything that needs to be said about tutorials 11 years ago. This video should be required watching for any dev.

But that would require watching an Egoraptor video, and that's too high a price for anyone to pay.

My thoughts are that the tutorial should always be a separate mode, apart from the main experience. Or at the very least an option that you can skip. The worst thing about late 2000s-2010s gaming is the over-reliance on forced tutorials and unskippable, Half-Life style cutscenes. Decent for your first playthrough, but a slog every time after.

[rusty_shackleford]

No. I regularly quit games that force me into a tutorial instead of letting me figure it out on my own. This extends even to things like Paradox games.

I rarely ever read manuals either, unless it was on the way home from the store or I was stuck.

[General Reign]

I used to love reading the manual while taking a ****.

[Klerik]

I read manuals instead of doing schoolwork... Manuals are the way to go for learning a computer program, however that was a different time than today. Tutorials are great if they are made by a competent individual. You guys like to play different types of games. Something that is pretty generic and dopaminergic might cause frustration if it forces you into a tutorial...Especially if it's not well made.

Something like Planescape or a 4X game with lots of different races and stats, or a simulator of some sort should in my opinion have a manual and a sort of sandbox for new players.

I think someone who makes a game nowadays with enough forethought to make a decent manual to go along with it and to make it multi-platform outside of a simple digital publisher will make lots of money and get lots of support. Kids these days don't understand how nice things were at one time in history as a gamer because they see old graphics and hardware limitations and assume the games are more primitive when in fact they were more rich in experience because they had to have extra material to enhance the presentation. Even ****** movie-based games of the 90s on PlayStation rode the high from other source material that came along-side the software.

I know it's good to cut corners and save money by not investing on things that the public might see as unncessecary, but if you took a modern game with all of its advancements compared to the games of old and combined it with the physical media and or digital content that was common in the 80's to early 00's you would have something that is even better than what was made in the past instead of regressing into niche fetishes or melding into a generic soup of mainstream gamerfluid formula that is based on twitch addiction rather than a novel sexperience looking for alien code inside of a VGA adventure game made by a mad sea-captain on cocaine which will actually stand the test of time and not a waste of time.

So in conclusion, I don't care just send me some goddamn books you jew fucks.

PS, I tried to not make a run on sentence but whatever it's bedtime.

[Humbaba]

Yes you ******* tard, stop pretending to hate tutorials because muh old school manuals, I'm cool rite fellow grognards????

Requiring you to read a seperate manual instead of teaching you the game and thus have you learn by doing is an objectively worse way of teaching things and the reason manuals died out. Everything can and should be taught in game, while the player is doing it.

Egoraptor's take btw isn't "tutorials suck", Megaman X has a tutorial area, there's just no textboxes showing up spelling **** out for you. His take is "teach the game via the game not via text".

[Segata]

Optional tutorials = I don't mind
Forced tutorials = Your game deserves to burn at the stake

Accepting the fact that we live in a world that hates manuals, ideally the tutorials need to be as minimal, concise and integrated as possible. If you're gonna force me into watching a video, you've failed at making a video game.

[Acrux]

Requiring you to read a seperate manual instead of teaching you the game and thus have you learn by doing is an objectively worse way of teaching things and the reason manuals died out.

Imagine Humbaba being wrong about something yet again.

The shift to internet-based and cloud-based releases is what killed manuals, as manuals had a long lead time and had to be written as the game was being developed. When there was no longer physical media being sold, most dev studios cut their content and technical writing teams.

Really it's part of the same problem as day one patches and DLCs that are just features that weren't completed in time for release.

[Gregz]

All games should start simple, introducing complexity gradually as the user learns the game.

A minute to learn, a lifetime to master.

[J1M]

No. I regularly quit games that force me into a tutorial instead of letting me figure it out on my own. This extends even to things like Paradox games.

I rarely ever read manuals either, unless it was on the way home from the store or I was stuck.

Deus Ex did it right. No need to reinvent the wheel. It has a tutorial that is clearly labeled as such that can be skipped or played at any time.

[asf]

Learn to learn you *******

[rusty_shackleford]

Yes you ******* tard, stop pretending to hate tutorials because muh old school manuals, I'm cool rite fellow grognards????

Requiring you to read a seperate manual instead of teaching you the game and thus have you learn by doing is an objectively worse way of teaching things and the reason manuals died out. Everything can and should be taught in game, while the player is doing it.

Egoraptor's take btw isn't "tutorials suck", Megaman X has a tutorial area, there's just no textboxes showing up spelling **** out for you. His take is "teach the game via the game not via text".

You're the reason they put the temple of trials in fallout 2 aren't you?

[1998]

I actually miss the tutorials from the old games. How its being done now with constant popups pretty much during the first 2/3 of the game is bs. But a classic tutorial, where you start at home (Ultima) or on a local fair (NWN2) to learn the controls and UI, I think its great. Its short but if done well gets me more excited for the game, and once its over there won't be any more disruptions and its just me and the game.

[NotAI]

If only most games actually taught the game via the game and not via text. The problem with tutorials is they tend to teach the game via text.

Edit. Oh. And break any immersion along the way, because why would anybody need that?

A tutorial is not the same as a starting area where easy to do trial and error. Although starting areas could also be better.

[Humbaba]

The shift to internet-based and cloud-based releases is what killed manuals, as manuals had a long lead time and had to be written as the game was being developed. When there was no longer physical media being sold, most dev studios cut their content and technical writing teams.

Many games still include digital manuals these days. The switch happened because devs realised that in game tutorials are better than reading a manual.

You're the reason they put the temple of trials in fallout 2 aren't you?

That place only gave you trouble if you were an abject mongoloid with the brain capacity of Spoony.

[rusty_shackleford]

That place only gave you trouble if you were an abject mongoloid with the brain capacity of Spoony.

It's not about trouble, it's about it being stupid. Tutorials are trash design for zoomers & younger millennials.

[Acrux]

The switch happened because devs realised that in game tutorials are better than reading a manual.

Have any proof that isn't just pulling your opinion out of your ***? As someone who has worked in the software industry for 2 decades I know first hand the reason why.

[rusty_shackleford]

Humbaba-tier game design on display:

[Humbaba]

It's not about trouble, it's about it being stupid. Tutorials are trash design for zoomers & younger millennials.

Tutorials are based.

Have any proof that isn't just pulling your opinion out of your ***? As someone who has worked in the software industry for 2 decades I know first hand the reason why.

Anecdote. Also those two things may have coincided with each other but the point stands that learning by doing is better than learning by reading. If you're gonna dispute that then I'm afraid you're stupid and gay.

[Humbaba]

Humbaba-tier game design on display:

That's a video on puzzles, please stay on topic rustov.

[rusty_shackleford]

Tutorials are based.

Based? Based on what?
Based on design principles created to cater to 5 year olds?

[Rigwort]

Manuals are nice due to the ability to add fluff, make learning through guidance optional, and being able to be used as an easy reference. And although I know we are in the RPG section, more complex games certainly require a manual or tutorial, otherwise, I want to see Rusty complete Shenzhen I/O or TIS-100 without referring to the manuals.

[POOPERSCOOPER]

I hate all tutorials and it’s some of the most boring **** ever. It may be necessary to “learn” mechanics but I would rather play the game wrong for 5 hours then spend time and energy in a 20 minute tutorial.

[Humbaba]

Based on design principles created to cater to 5 year olds?

Based on generally valid principles of education.

[Lhynn]

**** mandatory tutorials, no western rpg is hard enough that youd need one.

Just place them separate from the main game and let some tards go through it if they want to.

[Dangerous_JB]

Read a **** manual. Failing that (if devs don't want to make one which they usually don't anymore), there's no shortage of info online about most any game so in my mind tutorials are a waste, unless they are completely optional which is fine.