Wasteland 3

[rusty_shackleford]

Because I'm playing it and need a thread to dump my thoughts.

Despite it not being 'true' to the theme of the first Wasteland(debatable…), it would have benefited from less of the 'whackiness'. There's a strong whiplash in tone that I really dislike.

[rusty_shackleford]

With the Heads or Tail mission I went with the convoy.

If you choose to be a settler in a wilderness area, you're near the bottom of people to help. OTOH, the convoy must be protected for various reasons. It is important(the most important reason) that traders know the trade routes are guarded and banditry will not be tolerated. It is important for valuable materiel to not fall into the hands of raiders. It is important to get that materiel to the peacekeepers.
Yeah, it sucks for the family, but that was a choice they made to live in the middle of nowhere and be unable to defend themselves.


With regards to choices in RPGs, I've long since stopped caring about what rewards a mission may off unless that's a reason my character could actually care.

[rusty_shackleford]

The UI is a bit of a mess, it has a bunch of consoleisms which is very strange considering the subgenre. But it's also obviously designed for a KB+M, mostly thru legacy design I assume.
e.g., the dialogue UI was designed for usage on a TV. It's way too big and too few options are visible.

[Rand]

the dialogue UI was designed for usage on a TV. It's way too big and too few options are visible.

Can you mod it?

[rusty_shackleford]

the dialogue UI was designed for usage on a TV. It's way too big and too few options are visible.

Can you mod it?

Yes, but no.

The Linux version of Wasteland 3 is strictly superior to the Windows version.
Windows version uses il2cpp which makes modding much harder, Linux version doesn't.

You could almost guaranteed convert the Linux version to Windows with a bit of effort tho.

I need to make a frankenhack for WL3 that converts the Windows version to .NET.

[Rand]

This explains why there are basically no significant Wasteland 3 mods.

[Rand]

Only six useful mods by three authors...



https://www.nexusmods.com/wasteland3/mods/15
https://www.nexusmods.com/wasteland3/mods/24
https://www.nexusmods.com/wasteland3/mods/25
https://www.nexusmods.com/wasteland3/mods/27
https://www.nexusmods.com/wasteland3/mods/35
https://www.nexusmods.com/wasteland3/mods/36

[Rand]

Modder Berkay said this:



Yeah, that seems difficult.

[rusty_shackleford]

Modder Berkay said this:



Yeah, thaht seems difficult.

I suspect the game may not have been il2cpp at some point, those mods probably don't work.

[Rand]

Modder Berkay said this:



Yeah, thaht seems difficult.

I suspect the game may not have been il2cpp at some point, those mods probably don't work.

They were working recently. You need something called BepInEx, though.

[rusty_shackleford]

You don't need to loot with a character that has highest luck, btw.

Code: Select all

if ((float)UnityEngine.Random.Range(0, 100) < (float)GetPartyHighestLuck() * MonoBehaviourSingleton<AttributeManager>.instance.LuckyScrapChance)
			{
				for (int n = 0; n < list.Count; n++)
				{
					if (list[n].ItemTemplate == MonoBehaviourSingleton<ItemManager>.instance.ScrapTemplate)
					{
						list[n].Count = (int)((float)list[n].Count * MonoBehaviourSingleton<AttributeManager>.instance.LuckyScrapMultiplier);
						(looter as Pc).PlayLuckBonus(Pc.LuckBonus.Scrap);
					}
				}
			}

Attributes also seem to do more than the UI suggests. e.g., the amount of scrap/money collected is affected by total party charisma.

[1998]

Best RPG that came through Kickstarter, and the only inXile game I did not back

[rusty_shackleford]

(Bit negative, but I'm enjoying it actually)

Generic 'scrap' item feels kinda lame and cheapens the crafting, and post-apoc is one of the few settings where crafting should be a key feature.
Nowhere near enough armor/weapon mods, there's just one or two for each socket and they have higher level versions.
I'm again reminded why I strongly dislike skill-based party CRPGs, just clicking skill checks isn't fun…

[rusty_shackleford]

The radio is good gameplay design. People come to you for help instead of going around asking everyone if they need help.

[The_Mask]

The only thing blatantly silly about Wasteland 3, as far as I remember, is the fact that you have to be straight up evil to get a full set of ?power armor? (I forget the in-game equivalent).

And the best part is that if you're a lover of animals and care for them, you get the best "feature" of the game. 10/10 thumbs up from me on that one.

[rusty_shackleford]

All the various background details are nice and add a lot of life to the world.

Had a robot call in to HQ when I was entering, his message was:

Code: Select all

01000110
01010101
01000011
01001011
01011001
01001111
01010101
00100001

It says **** YOU!

[Acrux]

The only thing blatantly silly about Wasteland 3, as far as I remember, is the fact that you have to be straight up evil to get a full set of ?power armor? (I forget the in-game equivalent).

There's a ton of over the top, cringe humor. It's so much that I could only take the game in doses and needed to put it down for a while. Otherwise I liked it.

I still think W2 Director's Cut is a little better, though. Especially with the most recent versions of the Fan Patch (makes a lot of QoL changes)
https://www.nexusmods.com/wasteland2/mods/93

I also like several options in this portrait pack - and it works with W2 or W3. https://www.nexusmods.com/wasteland2/mods/15

[Roguey]

The UI is a bit of a mess, it has a bunch of consoleisms which is very strange considering the subgenre. But it's also obviously designed for a KB+M, mostly thru legacy design I assume.
e.g., the dialogue UI was designed for usage on a TV. It's way too big and too few options are visible.

Wasteland 2: Director's Cut went multiplatform and they never went back. Console sales are enough to justify it I suppose.

[rusty_shackleford]

Unlike roguey trader, WL3 has levels staggered thanks to individual character XP bonus/some skills causing you to get only xp for a character. This makes leveling, while already simpler than roguey trader, much less annoying because you aren't leveling up your entire party simultaneously.

I'm again reminded why I strongly dislike skill-based party CRPGs, just clicking skill checks isn't fun…

It might seem minor, but it's really not: ATOM RPG having you actually use your skills like verbs is simply a superior design because you feel like you're interacting with the world. It also lets the player be proactive if the designers are good enough.


Also, it's rather difficult to position your group prior to combat. I feel like they wanted it less gamey than just placing your units, but it ends up being worse.

[rusty_shackleford]

The game doesn't have enough non-combat material. You should be able(not required) to do something other than combat for long stretches in an RPG if you choose to do so.
Also, there's nowhere near enough perks and many of them suck.

Since I'm being so negative in my playthru posts, guess I'll post positives to not scare people off:
The core RPG mechanics are, if somewhat simple, functional. Combat is good on SJ difficulty. When the game isn't trying to be over-the-top oh-so-whacky, it has good writing. The environmental art ranges from good to fantastic. The vehicle is fun to use(in exploration maps) when you can use it. Most missions so far tend to be even-handed often with no clear 'good' path but you weighing which is the best for you personally.

[rusty_shackleford]

Had a surprisingly positive portrayal of Christianity(Catholicism)?
I can't remember if WL2 ever discusses (real world) religion at all.

Also with the morningstar. You can convince the AI that suicide would mean he wouldn't go to heaven, as the AI is Christian. You have to talk to him first and discuss his beliefs to learn he's Christian.. It's an alternative to the redditor option where you tell him he's just a soulless AI and needs to be reprogrammed.

[Acrux]

Had a surprisingly positive portrayal of Christianity(Catholicism)?
I can't remember if WL2 ever discusses (real world) religion at all.

Also with the morningstar. You can convince the AI that suicide would mean he wouldn't go to heaven, as the AI is Christian. You have to talk to him first and discuss his beliefs to learn he's Christian.. It's an alternative to the redditor option where you tell him he's just a soulless AI and needs to be reprogrammed.

In W2 there's a Catholic priest you can get as a companion in LA in who is just a very normal guy.

[rusty_shackleford]

Putting this in spoilers because some may not want to know this, I guess? It's related to the mechanics of how time passes.

► Show Spoiler

I poked around in the code a bit, there's two separate timesteps: one tied to the main quest, and a general timestep. AFAICT, nothing is tied to real time. Time progresses when completing missions. Perhaps not all missions advance time and only some, but I'd need to dump the list to see rather than just looking at the decompilation.
Bunch of things are tied to one or the other, either ambient things advancing or timed quests changing.

Some more stuff I found that I assume was cut:

► Show Spoiler

Player vices, religion, and race all exist but seem to be unused. They're exposed as if they were going to be used at some point. The list of religions is:

None,
Christian,
Jewish,
Muslim,
Hindu,
Sikh,
Buddhist,
Pagan,
Indigenous,
ChurchOfTheFinalDeluge,
Shinto,
Taoist,
CultOfTheMushroomCloud

Cult of the Mushroom Cloud was an NPC exclusive religion, and Final Deluge wasn't available when creating your character. I assume you had to convert.

Vices MIGHT be used? Maybe if you use the items ingame? Dunno. Religion definitely isn't, as there's no way to even select it. But it was intended to be part of character customization.
[edit]
NVM, vices aren't used, they were selected at creation.

[rusty_shackleford]

Might be because I just played rogue trader, but I feel a bit burned out on all the constant combat. I need to reiterate that RPGs really need to work on breaking up the pacing with exploration, non-combat activities, talking/learning etc.,

[Tweed]

More like Worstland.

[Rand]

Modder Berkay said this:



Yeah, thaht seems difficult.

I suspect the game may not have been il2cpp at some point, those mods probably don't work.

Your suspicion is correct. BepInEx needed a version update to deal with Il2cpp so they could work correctly again.
(But the included BepInEx versions under v6 don't work any more.)



That's probably the source of all the comments:
• "mods don't work" (people trying to use BepInEx v5.whatever)
• "working for me" (they had BepInEx v6 already for some reason)
• and "upgrade to latest BepInEx, included one is too old" (to BepInEx v6 with Il2cpp support)

Good eye, @rusty_shackleford

[rusty_shackleford]

Modder Berkay said this:



Yeah, thaht seems difficult.

I suspect the game may not have been il2cpp at some point, those mods probably don't work.

Your suspicion is correct. BepInEx needed a version update to deal with Il2cpp so they could work correctly again.
(But the included BepInEx versions under v6 don't work any more.)



That's probably the source of all the comments:
• "mods don't work" (people trying to use BepInEx v5.whatever)
• "working for me" (they had BepInEx v6 already for some reason)
• and "upgrade to latest BepInEx, included one is too old" (to BepInEx v6 with Il2cpp support)

Good eye, @rusty_shackleford

I was actually wrong, it was always il2cpp, he just made a mod for il2cpp which is much more difficult. I've never done it so I can't say exactly how difficult, but it would probably involve firing up ida or ghidra to get disassembling.

Need to look into frankenhacking together a regular .NET version for windows to enable mods

[Rand]

Need to look into frankenhacking together a regular .NET version for windows to enable mods

Look at BepInEx v6 first. It seems custom designed for exactly this issue.

[rusty_shackleford]

perfect example of why having ACTIONS in DIALOGUE is ******* stupid

At an 'obstacle course' full of deadly traps, there's a guy dying. You can either choose to kill him peacefully, or just throw him onto a trap to disarm it.
You CAN'T choose to kill him peacefully then when he's dead throw his body onto it, because there's no actual game system for that, it's a dialogue mechanic.


******* ********

[rusty_shackleford]

Might be because I just played rogue trader, but I feel a bit burned out on all the constant combat. I need to reiterate that RPGs really need to work on breaking up the pacing with exploration, non-combat activities, talking/learning etc.,

It's just walking from one combat encounter to the next, I know they tried to sort of give you a reason and way to position your guys before combat but I really don't care enough to do that and haven't even gotten close to losing a single fight on the hardest difficulty.

Also, I've never run out of ammo. There's no reason for ammo to even exist beyond being a mild moneysink.


I think I might just be over these kind of RPGs. Wasteland was very ambitious for its time, but games based on it(I'm not just referring to WL2/3 here FYI) just keep cutting things away to make it safer and easier to produce instead of iterating upon it and improving it. Being able to drag objects in the environment should be a standard feature in RPGs by now, not something groundbreaking you see in a couple games.

These games have largely been reduced to being combat simulators, very little differing them from nu-XCOM at this point. Unless they decide to go the route of dialoguedialoguedialogue(because they can't do anything else), then they just become visual novels with bad combat.

---

I feel like most developers have given up at any attempt to create a simulated world to put their game in. They just want to create the equivalent of a hollywood movie.