No Alphabets 7.1 — Baldur's Gate 3

[Unknown998]

So what do you call the person you're with, if not married?
Boyfriend/Girlfriend/Fiancé might not always ring the same in a formal setting.

I subscribe to the aforementioned "suitor" as an idea myself, of course I have a bias in favor of anything that doesn't come from our contemporary lexicon. Either way it's not as though this is untreaded ground, devs of today have centuries worth of resources to pull from -- but they'd have to care about not ferrari-ing their setting first.

Doesn't "suitor" imply not already together, though? As in just courting, not in a relationship.
I'd be alright with just changing it to "Husband", as presumably people weren't out of wedlock too long back then.

Well she wants to introduce him to her parents. So it seems to me that they are not yet married.

[ArcaneLurker]

BEHOLD ELVEN BEAUTY!

Thanks for showing me that depravity you call an elf.

Elrond lifted his head, eyes sharp, and Frodo felt like his heart got hit hard by that sudden, deep look. "Yo, if I’m hearing all this right," Elrond said, "this job’s on you, Frodo. Ain’t nobody else gonna handle it if you don’t. This the moment for y’all Shire folk, time to rise up from them peaceful fields and shake up the big dogs and their schemes. Who in their right mind saw this comin’? And if they really wise, why they think they’d know ‘til the time comes?"

[UltraFan123]

If you're a woman who comes from a wealthy family, then calling the man you like "sweetheart" or some other cutesy name would be infinitely more period-appropiate if you ask me.

[Brother Michael]

We still await the great de-niggering of BG3

[Unknown998]

BEHOLD ELVEN BEAUTY!

Thanks for showing me that depravity you call an elf.

Elrond lifted his head, eyes sharp, and Frodo felt like his heart got hit hard by that sudden, deep look. "Yo, if I’m hearing all this right," Elrond said, "this job’s on you, Frodo. Ain’t nobody else gonna handle it if you don’t. This the moment for y’all Shire folk, time to rise up from them peaceful fields and shake up the big dogs and their schemes. Who in their right mind saw this comin’? And if they really wise, why they think they’d know ‘til the time comes?"

[destinyhntr]

So Im shocked that I finally found an (elderly) hetero couple with a son....
Only after 4 dialogue options to read this:




And so my search for the "10 normal people in Baldurs gate" continues.....

I had an identical reaction. "Nice, a normal straight couple who get along.....Oh, she's leaving her stable husband to run off with some random woman. Wonderful."
Same with the dad telling his daughter to get married. "An interesting dispute. I wonder how it will turn out....Oh, she's a lesbian who wants to run off with some random woman."

If I was gay, I would get ****** off by how much the devs are overcompensating and shoving it down people's throats (similar to when Christian or right-wing movies use blatant, in-your-face dialogue to get something across rather than convey things naturally).

[probmfixn]

bit of a topic derailer but i gotta ask, anyone manage to get the bg3 toolkit working on linux? it tries to load but stalls at "Starting Services" for me

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

So Im shocked that I finally found an (elderly) hetero couple with a son....
Only after 4 dialogue options to read this:




And so my search for the "10 normal people in Baldurs gate" continues.....

I had an identical reaction. "Nice, a normal straight couple who get along.....Oh, she's leaving her stable husband to run off with some random woman. Wonderful."
Same with the dad telling his daughter to get married. "An interesting dispute. I wonder how it will turn out....Oh, she's a lesbian who wants to run off with some random woman."

If I was gay, I would get ****** off by how much the devs are overcompensating and shoving it down people's throats (similar to when Christian or right-wing movies use blatant, in-your-face dialogue to get something across rather than convey things naturally).

Just when I think the writing couldn’t get any worse larian finds a way to in putting a cherry on top this **** sundae.

[Ulfhednar]

Yep... The game without mods is really disgusting. The story is also relatively bad. We are in a divinity III and not a Baldur's Gate. Remove the woke ****. It's a good game with good gameplay. But is a bad Baldur's Gate. Every time I listen to the dialogue with Saverok. I want to tear my eyes out. The most terrifying blade in Baldur's Gate has become a sugar-coated grandpa who wants to die in the hands of a woman... It's disgusting and I'm not even talking about Viconia ... Anyway thanks again for every GOOD mod. In a few days. I will do my part by offering you a donation.

Skoll !

[rusty_shackleford]

To understand what OP calls 'medieval status quo', or why BG3 is so ridiculous, is to understand Gygaxian naturalism. The same reason drow and svirfneblin being everywhere is as ridiculous as 80% of the population being homosexual.
https://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/09 ... alism.html

I refer, from time to time, to a concept called "Gygaxian Naturalism." I realize that I've never actually explained what I mean by this phrase. As I use it, it refers to a tendency, present in the OD&D rules and reaching its fullest flower in AD&D, to go beyond describing monsters purely as opponents/obstacles for the player characters by giving game mechanics that serve little purpose other than to ground those monsters in the campaign world.

This naturalism can take many forms. For example, OD&D often tells us that for every X number of monster Y, there's a chance that monster Z might also be found in their lair. In the case of the djinn and efreet, as another example, we find that they both can create nourishing food and potable beverages, as well as many other kinds of materials through the use of their innate powers. In AD&D, these sorts of things get expanded upon greatly, with the Monster Manual telling us how many females and children can be found in a monster lair and giving many creatures powers and abilities that don't serve a specifically combat-oriented purpose, such as a pixie's ability to know alignment, for instance.

The intention behind Gygaxian Naturalism is to paint a picture of a "real" world, which is to say, a world that exists for reasons other than purely gaming ones. The implication is that monsters have lives of their own and thus go about their business doing various things until they encounter the player characters. Exactly what they do is described by reference to game mechanics, whether it be the numbers of non-combatants in a lair or spell-like abilities that help the monster do whatever it naturally does when it's not facing off against an adventuring party.

A consequence of Gygaxian Naturalism is that it grounds D&D a bit more in a pseudo-reality. I don't mean to imply that it's realistic in any meaningful sense, only that its fantasy follows "natural" laws of a sort, much in the way that, for example, I know that there are squirrels and raccoons and rabbits in my neighborhood who go about their business when I'm not seeing them in my yard or chasing them away from my recycling bins. That's one reason why AD&D has stats for so many kinds of "ordinary" animals: you can't build a "real" world without stats for sheep and cows and horses and such, because you never know when the PCs might need to kill one.

The end result of this is that Gygaxian fantasy is a simulation -- a fantastical one, to be sure, but a simulation nonetheless. The downside is that it's a very specific kind of simulation and it carries with it a lot of assumptions and expectations that not everyone shares. I know many OD&Ders, for example, who don't like "naturalistic" orcs, preferring them instead to be spawned from black ooze that bubbles up from the mythic underworld that is the dungeon. Likewise, the tendency to provide stats for everything is a self-perpetuating one, reaching its zenith in 3e, in which the game almost literally did stat out every conceivable thing with which your character might interact. Needless to say, some find this to be too much, myself included.

Gygaxian Naturalism survived Gygax's involvement in the development of Dungeons & Dragons and formed one the most important, if often only sub-consciously, creative foundations of the game through its second and third editions. My read of the latest edition is that it largely rejects Gygaxian Naturalism without embracing the alternative offered by some interpretations of OD&D, instead opting for a different model altogether. I myself have drunk deeply from the wells of Gygaxian Naturalism, so it's second nature to me now. I won't go so far as to say that Gary's approach is inseparable from D&D, because that's certainly not the case, but I will say that it's so deeply ingrained -- even in OD&D, particularly if you add the supplements -- that, to remove it, is very likely to have the effect of creating a different game entirely -- certainly a different one that what has been called D&D for most of the game's existence.

This is not something imposed onto Gygax's work by fans afterwards, he was fully aware of this:

it is important that it be fully detailed so oftentimes particularly in Fantasy
games the milieu must consist of um the geology climatology everything has to be there a complete
social structure cultures religions and so on in order to to satisfy the players as they experience
more and more of the world because they are in effect experiencing mentally a a whole a whole
created world of some sort

BG3, and modern Forgotten Realms, has no internal consistency. It is a world that has no rules, beyond perhaps, emulating a coastal liberal lifestyle with fantasy races as costumes. Said lifestyle also happens to be a deadend, therefore makes no sense except for the most decadent of societies and certainly not for the world at large.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

To understand what OP calls 'medieval status quo', or why BG3 is so ridiculous, is to understand Gygaxian naturalism. The same reason drow and svirfneblin being everywhere is as ridiculous as 80% of the population being homosexual.
https://grognardia.blogspot.com/2008/09 ... alism.html

I refer, from time to time, to a concept called "Gygaxian Naturalism." I realize that I've never actually explained what I mean by this phrase. As I use it, it refers to a tendency, present in the OD&D rules and reaching its fullest flower in AD&D, to go beyond describing monsters purely as opponents/obstacles for the player characters by giving game mechanics that serve little purpose other than to ground those monsters in the campaign world.

This naturalism can take many forms. For example, OD&D often tells us that for every X number of monster Y, there's a chance that monster Z might also be found in their lair. In the case of the djinn and efreet, as another example, we find that they both can create nourishing food and potable beverages, as well as many other kinds of materials through the use of their innate powers. In AD&D, these sorts of things get expanded upon greatly, with the Monster Manual telling us how many females and children can be found in a monster lair and giving many creatures powers and abilities that don't serve a specifically combat-oriented purpose, such as a pixie's ability to know alignment, for instance.

The intention behind Gygaxian Naturalism is to paint a picture of a "real" world, which is to say, a world that exists for reasons other than purely gaming ones. The implication is that monsters have lives of their own and thus go about their business doing various things until they encounter the player characters. Exactly what they do is described by reference to game mechanics, whether it be the numbers of non-combatants in a lair or spell-like abilities that help the monster do whatever it naturally does when it's not facing off against an adventuring party.

A consequence of Gygaxian Naturalism is that it grounds D&D a bit more in a pseudo-reality. I don't mean to imply that it's realistic in any meaningful sense, only that its fantasy follows "natural" laws of a sort, much in the way that, for example, I know that there are squirrels and raccoons and rabbits in my neighborhood who go about their business when I'm not seeing them in my yard or chasing them away from my recycling bins. That's one reason why AD&D has stats for so many kinds of "ordinary" animals: you can't build a "real" world without stats for sheep and cows and horses and such, because you never know when the PCs might need to kill one.

The end result of this is that Gygaxian fantasy is a simulation -- a fantastical one, to be sure, but a simulation nonetheless. The downside is that it's a very specific kind of simulation and it carries with it a lot of assumptions and expectations that not everyone shares. I know many OD&Ders, for example, who don't like "naturalistic" orcs, preferring them instead to be spawned from black ooze that bubbles up from the mythic underworld that is the dungeon. Likewise, the tendency to provide stats for everything is a self-perpetuating one, reaching its zenith in 3e, in which the game almost literally did stat out every conceivable thing with which your character might interact. Needless to say, some find this to be too much, myself included.

Gygaxian Naturalism survived Gygax's involvement in the development of Dungeons & Dragons and formed one the most important, if often only sub-consciously, creative foundations of the game through its second and third editions. My read of the latest edition is that it largely rejects Gygaxian Naturalism without embracing the alternative offered by some interpretations of OD&D, instead opting for a different model altogether. I myself have drunk deeply from the wells of Gygaxian Naturalism, so it's second nature to me now. I won't go so far as to say that Gary's approach is inseparable from D&D, because that's certainly not the case, but I will say that it's so deeply ingrained -- even in OD&D, particularly if you add the supplements -- that, to remove it, is very likely to have the effect of creating a different game entirely -- certainly a different one that what has been called D&D for most of the game's existence.

This is not something imposed onto Gygax's work by fans afterwards, he was fully aware of this:

it is important that it be fully detailed so oftentimes particularly in Fantasy
games the milieu must consist of um the geology climatology everything has to be there a complete
social structure cultures religions and so on in order to to satisfy the players as they experience
more and more of the world because they are in effect experiencing mentally a a whole a whole
created world of some sort

BG3, and modern Forgotten Realms, has no internal consistency. It is a world that has no rules, beyond perhaps, emulating a coastal liberal lifestyle with fantasy races as costumes. Said lifestyle also happens to be a deadend, therefore makes no sense except for the most decadent of societies and certainly not for the world at large.

This can really be said to all modern fantasy In media that comes out nowadays sadly.

[DagothGeas5]

When I DM for a friend I always made the world be "alive", especially because those parts of day-to-day life can be used against the monsters. I thought it would be obvious to do, and Baldur's Gate 3 tricked me, with all the interactible items, that they would do the same. At least now it can be repaired thanks to the Toolkit.
(not quoting because it's a large post, and something like that I would not want to put into a spoiler, it needs to be front and center)

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

When I DM for a friend I always made the world be "alive", especially because those parts of day-to-day life can be used against the monsters. I thought it would be obvious to do, and Baldur's Gate 3 tricked me, with all the interactible items, that they would do the same. At least now it can be repaired thanks to the Toolkit.
(not quoting because it's a large post, and something like that I would not want to put into a spoiler, it needs to be front and center)

The sliver lining in BG3 ( hopefully but I expect the absolute worst lessons to be learned) success is that other RPG studios will take notes on how well BG3 does interactivity in environments, items and NPC’s that effects story progression ( it’s mostly small but still admirable attempt)

[Magick]

When I DM for a friend I always made the world be "alive", especially because those parts of day-to-day life can be used against the monsters. I thought it would be obvious to do, and Baldur's Gate 3 tricked me, with all the interactible items, that they would do the same. At least now it can be repaired thanks to the Toolkit.
(not quoting because it's a large post, and something like that I would not want to put into a spoiler, it needs to be front and center)

The sliver lining in BG3 ( hopefully but I expect the absolute worst lessons to be learned) success is that other RPG studios will take notes on how well BG3 does interactivity in environments, items and NPC’s that effects story progression ( it’s mostly small but still admirable attempt)

It will unfortunately be all the degenerate sex and beastiality that they take notes on.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

When I DM for a friend I always made the world be "alive", especially because those parts of day-to-day life can be used against the monsters. I thought it would be obvious to do, and Baldur's Gate 3 tricked me, with all the interactible items, that they would do the same. At least now it can be repaired thanks to the Toolkit.
(not quoting because it's a large post, and something like that I would not want to put into a spoiler, it needs to be front and center)

The sliver lining in BG3 ( hopefully but I expect the absolute worst lessons to be learned) success is that other RPG studios will take notes on how well BG3 does interactivity in environments, items and NPC’s that effects story progression ( it’s mostly small but still admirable attempt)

It will unfortunately be all the degenerate sex and beastiality that they take notes on.

“Let's All Laugh at An Industry That Never Learns Anything Tee-Hee-Hee”

[SoLong]

So Im shocked that I finally found an (elderly) hetero couple with a son....
Only after 4 dialogue options to read this:




And so my search for the "10 normal people in Baldurs gate" continues.....

If it makes it any better, karma can catch the ***** in a very roundabout way. Outside of the fact that no court (even a Gortash run one) would let her just take all the money (since they're a married couple), her lover and son are killed during the Steelwatch foundry heist. So now the ***** is all alone or, optionally, left with a husband who has every reason to hate her.

Edit: Or you just do a stealth assassination since her health is so low. And I just realized something: for any married couple it's the man who's weak, or captured, or stupid, or worse off. Even if both of them are evil (Gortash's parents as a example) only the woman is still sane. What are you trying to tell us there Larian?

[RayoSombrio]

So Im shocked that I finally found an (elderly) hetero couple with a son....
Only after 4 dialogue options to read this:




And so my search for the "10 normal people in Baldurs gate" continues.....

If it makes it any better, karma can catch the ***** in a very roundabout way. Outside of the fact that no court (even a Gortash run one) would let her just take all the money (since they're a married couple), her lover and son are killed during the Steelwatch foundry heist. So now the ***** is all alone or, optionally, left with a husband who has every reason to hate her.

Edit: Or you just do a stealth assassination since her health is so low. And I just realized something: for any married couple it's the man who's weak, or captured, or stupid, or worse off. Even if both of them are evil (Gortash's parents as a example) only the woman is still sane. What are you trying to tell us there Larian?

True, but very few people can see that...
To make men look weak or stupid in media is just a way to attack us.

[Finarfin]

So Im shocked that I finally found an (elderly) hetero couple with a son....
Only after 4 dialogue options to read this:




And so my search for the "10 normal people in Baldurs gate" continues.....

If this was a normal game, you'd see the husband slap her and tell her to cease her whorish degenerate behavior before he'll do worse.

[SoLong]

So Im shocked that I finally found an (elderly) hetero couple with a son....
Only after 4 dialogue options to read this:




And so my search for the "10 normal people in Baldurs gate" continues.....

If this was a normal game, you'd see the husband slap her and tell her to cease her whorish degenerate behavior before he'll do worse.

My Dark Urge: I am thoroughly against murder and oppose my evil father, but hear me out...

[UltraFan123]

The "husband is the weak and stupid one" trope has indeed been around for a few decades, going all the way back to The Simpsons or perhaps before even that. But tbh, back then it was mostly satire meant to be a joke, but I guess rusty was right when he said that humor is the first step towards normalization.

[SoLong]

The "husband is the weak and stupid one" trope has indeed been around for a few decades, going all the way back to The Simpsons or perhaps before even that. But tbh, back then it was mostly satire meant to be a joke, but I guess rusty was right when he said that humor is the first step towards normalization.

I long for the normalcy and equality of Married with Children. Who would have thought this day would come.

[Stack of Turtles]

The "husband is the weak and stupid one" trope has indeed been around for a few decades, going all the way back to The Simpsons or perhaps before even that. But tbh, back then it was mostly satire meant to be a joke, but I guess rusty was right when he said that humor is the first step towards normalization.

It wasn't satire, it's just Jewish culture. That's what they consider a normal family dynamic.

[Acrux]

The "husband is the weak and stupid one" trope has indeed been around for a few decades, going all the way back to The Simpsons or perhaps before even that. But tbh, back then it was mostly satire meant to be a joke, but I guess rusty was right when he said that humor is the first step towards normalization.

Try way before that - in television at least, it started with The Honeymooners.

[fkirenicus]

I long for the normalcy and equality of Married with Children. Who would have thought this day would come.

That's Bundy, right? Al, was it? Married to that enormously bosomed wife?

[fkirenicus]

Elrond lifted his head, eyes sharp, and Frodo felt like his heart got hit hard by that sudden, deep look. "Yo, if I’m hearing all this right," Elrond said, "this job’s on you, Frodo. Ain’t nobody else gonna handle it if you don’t. This the moment for y’all Shire folk, time to rise up from them peaceful fields and shake up the big dogs and their schemes. Who in their right mind saw this comin’? And if they really wise, why they think they’d know ‘til the time comes?"

Definitely funny, but sad in the sense that given a few years, if Tolkien is read at all, this might be a considered a "necessary modernization" by the publishers, like many other writers of the 20th century have been exposed to.

[Unhelpful Contrarian]

Elrond lifted his head, eyes sharp, and Frodo felt like his heart got hit hard by that sudden, deep look. "Yo, if I’m hearing all this right," Elrond said, "this job’s on you, Frodo. Ain’t nobody else gonna handle it if you don’t. This the moment for y’all Shire folk, time to rise up from them peaceful fields and shake up the big dogs and their schemes. Who in their right mind saw this comin’? And if they really wise, why they think they’d know ‘til the time comes?"

Definitely funny, but sad in the sense that given a few years, if Tolkien is read at all, this might be a considered a "necessary modernization" by the publishers, like many other writers of the 20th century have been exposed to.

If I wanted modernization in fantasy media I would taken a walk around the block to my crime infested city.

What’s larian pitch here “You to can not only experience the diversity in every facet of your regular day life but in our game as well.

[Unknown998]

So Im shocked that I finally found an (elderly) hetero couple with a son....
Only after 4 dialogue options to read this:




And so my search for the "10 normal people in Baldurs gate" continues.....

If this was a normal game, you'd see the husband slap her and tell her to cease her whorish degenerate behavior before he'll do worse.

My Dark Urge: I am thoroughly against murder and oppose my evil father, but hear me out...

Thankfully my durge wasnt "good" so his reaction to his visit of the "Elfsong tavern" and not finding righteous people in it was the following:

[Unknown998]

Elf with beard:


And in case someone says that its a half Elf:




Any mod to fix him?

[Brother Michael]

Elf with beard:


And in case someone says that its a half Elf:




Any mod to fix him?

I presume this and others are going to fall under the aesthetics mod being developed. Are all of the undesirables you are posting about not removed by No Alphabets?

[orinEsque]

Elf with beard:


And in case someone says that its a half Elf:




Any mod to fix him?

I presume this and others are going to fall under the aesthetics mod being developed. Are all of the undesirables you are posting about not removed by No Alphabets?

Correct. We will take care of this in the aesthetics mod.

I've already written a script to find all the crappy hairstyles and beards on inappropriate race/gender and remove/replace them.