Loghain was the good guy, actually.

[rusty_shackleford]

the Grey Wardens (who he thought are plotting with Orlais because in Loghain's mind everyone not on his side is just an Orlesian pawn)

Yes… what reason might Loghain have to distrust the Orlais…

The rest of the surviving Grey Wardens and Maric attempt to escape. Only Duncan, Fiona and Maric[HINT: this was the king!] make it out of the Deep Roads, with Kell and Hafter sacrificing themselves to buy the others time, only to find themselves tricked and captured by First Enchanter Remille and taken to the Circle Tower which was taken over by Orlesian Circle mages and templars. There, they re-encounter the Architect, Bregan, Genevieve and Utha. It is revealed that the Architect has made a deal with Remille, offering him knowledge of darkspawn magic and Maric as a captive for the Orlesian Emperor in exchange for his help in spreading the taint in all the major cities of Thedas. However, the Architect's plans are thwarted when Loghain, having learned of the Orlesians taking over the tower, arrives with a Fereldan army to recapture it, and Bregan and Genevieve renounce the Architect's plans. Bregan, Genevieve and Remille are killed in the final showdown, but the Architect and Utha escape.

Yes, that's right, Loghain already defeated the Architect once before the game starts.

[edit]
To be clear, Genevieve was the commander of the grey wardens of Orlais. They — The Grey Wardens and Orlais — were already caught working hand in hand with the Architect.
Why would Loghain trust them?

And no, it's not a ret-con, the book came out before DAO.

[SoLong]

I can't recall, what was Loghain's plan for Ostagar? Or were they all there just because of Cailan and he would have done things differently from the start? And if so, what was he planning to do?

Loghain withdrew his forces at Ostagar so that a) the King (the son of his "best friend") would die and b) the Grey Wardens (who he thought are plotting with Orlais because in Loghain's mind everyone not on his side is just an Orlesian pawn) would die with him. Kill two of his enemies at once while also depleting the armies of his political enemies' allies.

He also thought that the unending army of darkness (whose leader can't be killed by anyone but a Grey Warden) was like any other army he could outmaneuver and beat on the battlefield.

It's questionable which flavor of idiocy, insanity or self delusion best applies to him but it is at least one of those.

So was only Cailan that wanted to be at Ostagar? Was Loghain there just because of the King's orders?

Remember that there was an evil army invading. Being there is kind of the job of the armies and their leaders. Cailan's arguably only flaw is that he insisted on fighting himself. It's noble in theory but as the story demonstrates it gives various evil people an opportunity to kill him off while keeping plausible deniability.

[Big Red Dog]

loghain is being gangstalked by orlesian grey wardens

[SoLong]

Yes… what reason might Loghain have to distrust the Orlais…

Irrelevant, the Wardens aren't Orlesian agents. Loghains delusional belief otherwise is not an argument in his favour. Quite the opposite, it shows he's an unstable idiot who allows his fantasies to overrule reason. He shouldn't be allowed near any set of power.

Yes, that's right, Loghain already defeated the Architect once before the game starts.

A) The Architect survived that just fine, didn't he?

B) The architect isn't leading the army, that would be the Archdemon. You know, the big, evil, semi-immortal dragon.

Loghain is a delusional idiot and his plan, if it had worked the way he envisioned, would have destroyed his country. Many sane people (not just the protagonist and the party) could and have pointed this out to him and he consistently chose his delusions over observable reality.

Probably because he's a moral coward who couldn't admit that all his stupid evil and evil stupidity was completely pointless. He stakes his entire identity on being his country's savior, if he ever admitted, even to himself, that he's the greatest danger to the country (second only to the evil dragon itself) he'd probably snap completely.

[rusty_shackleford]

Irrelevant, the Wardens aren't Orlesian agents

To be clear, Genevieve was the commander of the grey wardens of Orlais. They — The Grey Wardens and Orlais — were already caught working hand in hand with the Architect.

Yes, silly of Loghain to be distrustful of them.

[Big Red Dog]

Irrelevant, the Wardens aren't Orlesian agents

To be clear, Genevieve was the commander of the grey wardens of Orlais. They — The Grey Wardens and Orlais — were already caught working hand in hand with the Architect.

Yes, silly of Loghain to be distrustful of them.

i don't trust black people but i wouldn't murder my brother and kill his kids just because he bleached a nigerian

[fkirenicus]

that ultimately led to his downfall.

His whatnow?
you guys recruited him, right?

Oh, no. Canon lore in my book is that Alistair beheads him and locks Anora up, becoming king himself.

[Tweed]

You people are even more low T than I thought. No wonder the RPG rank list looks so ****** up.

[KOS-MOS]

loghain wanted the crown so he could be king of the ashes and whored his daughter out

You should read the first book -also written by Gaider- to understand what kind of man Loghain was.

the only good videogame books are the early halo ones

So that means you don't know anything about Loghain ?

[Big Red Dog]

You should read the first book -also written by Gaider- to understand what kind of man Loghain was.

the only good videogame books are the early halo ones

So that means you don't know anything about Loghain ?

have you read the 15 prequel lore books for lequisha fontains magical gay negro parade? no? how can you say it was a bad game then?

[KOS-MOS]

the only good videogame books are the early halo ones

So that means you don't know anything about Loghain ?

have you read the 15 prequel lore books for lequisha fontains magical gay negro parade? no? how can you say it was a bad game then?

No offense but your answer makes you look very ********.

[Big Red Dog]

So that means you don't know anything about Loghain ?

have you read the 15 prequel lore books for lequisha fontains magical gay negro parade? no? how can you say it was a bad game then?

No offense but your answer makes you look very ********.

that's actually kind of offensive...

[Rand]

then I can't fathom what wrong would be.

the king fighting at the front of his army to do stupid heroics against an unthinking, unfeeling army of darkness that massively outnumbers you despite everyone you should be listening to for advice telling you to stop

And killing the few people that YOU KNOW FOR A FACT are the only people that can actually deal with the main enemy is madness.

This is just false tho, nearly all the wardens aren't in ferelden, only a handful are.

Yeah, Cailan shouldn't have led the charge, but Fereldan politics basically required him to be a fighting leader to maintain support from his lords.
And, as it turns out, two wardens were enough. In many of the blights, only a few wardens were in the right place at the right time to get an attack on the archdemon.
Which is something that should have been known. Better a few wardens than none, and no chance at all to win.

[rusty_shackleford]

Better a few wardens than none,

There's at least a few thousands of wardens in other territories.

[Rand]

that ultimately led to his downfall.

you guys recruited him, right?

No. I cut his head off as an example to other epic shitheels whose ambition would kill myriads when men should be allied in a common cause against a literal existential threat.

[rusty_shackleford]

whose ambition would kill myriads

you mean the king?

when men should be allied in a common cause against a literal existential threat.

orlais was working with that 'literal existential threat' against ferelden, btw. So were the gray wardens.

[Rand]

Better a few wardens than none,

There's at least a few thousands of wardens in other territories.

They're not in Ferelden at the beginning of a blight.
The best chance to get the archdemon while it's weakest and save as many as possible.

[Rand]

whose ambition would kill myriads

you mean the king?

when men should be allied in a common cause against a literal existential threat.

orlais was working with that 'literal existential threat' against ferelden, btw. So were the gray wardens.

They didn't need to win. Duncan needed an opening to go in after the archdemon.
It turns out they guessed wrong where it was, but that wasn't Cailan's fault.

[rusty_shackleford]

writer: "he's the good guy"
people with low T: "no, he must be the bad guy???"
writer: "no, I literally wrote a book showing how he's the good guy and he's actually doing the right thing"
people with low T: "loghain… evil…?"

[rusty_shackleford]

They didn't need to win. Duncan needed an opening to go in after the archdemon.

Even with Loghain's army, they were outnumbered 3:1(this is stated ingame.) The archdemon was nowhere near Ostagar, as you learn during Paragon of Her Kind which happens far later. At best, a victory would have meant sacrificing most of your army to defeat enemies that are rapidly replenished. Woohoo!

[Vergil]

I need to go drop a loghain rn

[KOS-MOS]

Reading this thread reminds how absurd Inquisition's plot was.

[rusty_shackleford]

They didn't need to win. Duncan needed an opening to go in after the archdemon.

Even with Loghain's army, they were outnumbered 3:1(this is stated ingame.) The archdemon was nowhere near Ostagar, as you learn during Paragon of Her Kind which happens far later. At best, a victory would have meant sacrificing most of your army to defeat enemies that are rapidly replenished. Woohoo!

The archdemon was never anywhere near Ostagar.


Loghain specifically says, "no dragons have been sighted" prior to the battle at Ostagar. There was no evidence the archdemon existed, let alone it was a true blight.

[Big Red Dog]

writer: xhe is strong and independent and will punish the colonizers
rusty_shackleford: OMG YASS QUEEN YASSS SLAYYYYY

[Rand]

They didn't need to win. Duncan needed an opening to go in after the archdemon.

Even with Loghain's army, they were outnumbered 3:1(this is stated ingame.) The archdemon was nowhere near Ostagar, as you learn during Paragon of Her Kind which happens far later. At best, a victory would have meant sacrificing most of your army to defeat enemies that are rapidly replenished. Woohoo!

Being outnumbered only 3:1 was actually decent odds for the Fereldans.
The darkspawn were mostly young and weak and so was the archdemon.
They were no match for an armed and armored force of veteran warriors like the Fereldans were at the time.
Even after Loghain's betrayal, the remaining forces of Cailan killed more than half of the darkspawn there before being annihilated.
And what did Loghain do with his troops and allies? Ran straight back to the capital and sat there hoping the problem would go away on its own?
A ******* blight, which anyone not a fool knew would just get worse until the archdemon came out to really start the massacre, which it did, in the capital where Loghain had sat.
If it weren't for the player and Alastair, Ferelden would have been turned into a graveyard and breeding ground, Orzammar shortly thereafter, and Orlais would have been next after that.
If the blight got that far, the whole continent could have fallen.

[rusty_shackleford]

A ******* blight

Nobody knew it was a blight.

and so was the archdemon.

The archdemon wasn't there.


Did you play the game? One of the people most sure it wasn't a blight and could easily be beaten was Cailan himself.

[edit]
Oh, and one of the reasons Loghain didn't want to fight the battle was he wanted to wait for more reinforcements. Cailan comments that they just want to take the glory. What a thoughtful king.

[Rand]

A ******* blight

Nobody knew it was a blight.

and so was the archdemon.

The archdemon wasn't there.


Did you play the game?

For ****'s sake Rusty, what is it with you today? Take your ******* pills.

Duncan told them it was a blight.
They didn't know the archdemon wasn't there near Ostagar.
It was definitely in Ferelden, however.
Duncan seemed to think it was, or there was some point to his actions.

[rusty_shackleford]

Duncan told them it was a blight.

And Cailan didn't believe him.

They didn't know the archdemon wasn't there.

Loghain explicitly states there were no sightings of dragons in the area.

[rusty_shackleford]

Here's a thought experiment:

Someone from a special military order — this order that just not too long ago tried to kidnap your king and take him as prisoner to a foreign land — is trying to convince you that something really bad is happening and you need to let the people who previously invaded and rampaged through your land move a massive army through it to help you.
Do you trust them?
If you say 'yes', you are Poland in 1939.

[Rand]

Duncan told them it was a blight.

And Cailan didn't believe him.

They didn't know the archdemon wasn't there.

Loghain explicitly states there were no sightings of dragons in the area.

Because it hadn't emerged yet from wherever it was down in the depths.
Duncan wanted to kill it before it did, so decimating the darkspawn horde would, I assume he thought, give him an opening.
Maybe he thought it would hurt/**** off the archdemon so he could sense where it was exactly.