Loghain was the good guy, actually.

[Big Red Dog]

stop watching video essays about how humans are the real monsters

Yeah you never implied I called him a monster, you're definitely right.

One of the biggest ******* I ran into on GRPG forum side. Congratulations.

and you are saying that i have poor reading comprehension

[SoLong]

loghain was right btw

had to go digging for this


loghain was written to be right
the fanbase overwhelmingly getting it wrong is funny tho

Loghain set up a plan that, if successfully executed, would have resulted in the destruction of his own ******* country.

If Gayder wanted him to be right then that just shows what a **** writer he can be at his worst.

[boot]

Loghain was a treacherous dog, and he deserved to be put down like a dog.

[boot]

Just like David's top guy, Joab, needed to be put down by Solomon, as he became untrustworthy at the end of his years and had become treacherous and sinful, so did Maric's top guy, Loghain, need to be executed in the end. Once a hero, a slayer of thousands.

[fkirenicus]

Loghain set up a plan that, if successfully executed, would have resulted in the destruction of his own ******* country.

If Gayder wanted him to be right then that just shows what a **** writer he can be at his worst.

Well, he wouldn't be the first - neither in Thedas or in our own world - to do so (codeword: "Starmer").
"But that is a story for another time."

Concerning Gaider, I suspect that was a post meant to "provoke". After all, DA was ORIGINALLY "not about unicorns and rainbows, but tough, moral decisions".
Now, it mostly IS unicorns and rainbows...

Anyway, one should not underestimate the simple fact that Cailan was secretly corresponding - and maybe even considered an alliance through marriage? - with Empress Celene of Orlais. That would of course require him to divorce Anora, and so Loghain possibly/probably saw him as a traitor on two counts: both against his country, but also against Loghain's own family. IF he knew of this (we do not know for certain; it is never stated one way or the other, as far as I have gathered).
That might have pushed him over the edge and into an alliance with Arl Rendon Howe to overthrow Cailan, not realizing until the onslaught at Ostagar how deadly the "darkspawn incursion" actually was.
But in the end, the darkspawn did the job for him, so to speak - so in the beginning, he might have considered it a blessing in disguise.
It did not take long before he realized that he was up to his thighs in deep ****, however, and that pushed his moral boundaries even further askew (so bad that he accepted slavery in Ferelden, among other things).
I would not say Loghain was the good guy, but IF he knew about Cailan's secret, his behaviour can be explained to a certain extent.

Ah - those were the good DA days.
Alas. No longer.

[SoLong]

Anyway, one should not underestimate the simple fact that Cailan was secretly corresponding - and maybe even considered an alliance through marriage? - with Empress Celene of Orlais. That would of course require him to divorce Anora, and so Loghain possibly/probably saw him as a traitor on two counts: both against his country, but also against Loghain's own family.
That might have pushed him over the edge and into an alliance with Arl Rendon Howe to overthrow Cailan, not realizing until the onslaught at Ostagar how deadly the "darkspawn incursion" actually was.

Which would be a more compelling if that was what actually happened. Loghain had nothing to go on but his own paranoia as far as the divorce was concerned; that he ended up being right was purely accidental.

It's also not like he has a leg to stand on; he tricked his best friend into killing his lover by withholding important information and ended up killing his son, then tried to kill his OTHER son only so he could keep the throne he usurped. The only people Loghain hasn't ended up betraying were those who got killed by someone else first. Even the marriage with Anora makes him a hypocrite; he pushed Maric and his wife together because they'd make a good political match so he knows precisely how noble marriages work. He was only suddenly against bedroom politics because his own daughter would've been the loser.

But in the end, the darkspawn did the job for him, so to speak - so in the beginning, he might have considered it a blessing in disguise.
It did not take long before he realized that he was up to his thighs in deep ****, however, and that pushed his moral boundaries even further askew (so bad that he accepted slavery in Ferelden, among other things).
I would not say Loghain was the good guy, but IF he knew about Cailan's secret, his behaviour can be explained to a certain extent.

Ah - those were the good DA days.
Alas. No longer.

The darkspawn only did the job for him because Loghain ordered a retreat when his men were supposed to flank the darkspawn. Because he backstabbed the entire army just to make sure Cailan dies.

I assume that Loghain started out with good intentions, but he crossed the moral event horizon before the game even started.

Also, he didn't know Cailan's secret. Evidence for it can be found if you return to Ostagar and if you recruit him and take him there he's outraged to find out that his paranoid ravings were true for once.

[rusty_shackleford]

Which would be a more compelling if that was what actually happened. Loghain had nothing to go on but his own paranoia as far as the divorce was concerned; that he ended up being right was purely accidental.

He was written to be right.
Loghain was meant to be right, the entire point is that w*men and low-test "men" would distrust him.

[Big Red Dog]

Which would be a more compelling if that was what actually happened. Loghain had nothing to go on but his own paranoia as far as the divorce was concerned; that he ended up being right was purely accidental.

He was written to be right.
Loghain was meant to be right, the entire point is that w*men and low-test "men" would distrust him.

ulysses was meant to be right, the entire point is that bears and bulls would distrust him.

[Tweed]

He's right you know.

I mean Loghain.

[Element]

His association with Howe, even if he was a war hero, is what gives him a bad look

[Big Red Dog]

His association with Howe, even if he was a war hero, is what gives him a bad look

him being evil and ******** gives him a bad look

[Rand]

If allowing an enemy horde to run rampant across the kingdom ultimately destroying it was right, then I can't fathom what wrong would be.
And killing the few people that YOU KNOW FOR A FACT are the only people that can actually deal with the main enemy is madness.

The game did not show what the actual aftermath of the failure at Ostagar would be.
Every town and city except the walled capital overrun and destroyed within a couple of weeks, and the capital then overrun by the corrupted lesser dragons shortly thereafter.
How fortunate that the enemy was as incompetent as the main writers.

The fact that after the battle you can **** around in that first town forever and it's not being destroyed by darkspawn always baffled me.

[rusty_shackleford]

then I can't fathom what wrong would be.

the king fighting at the front of his army to do stupid heroics against an unthinking, unfeeling army of darkness that massively outnumbers you despite everyone you should be listening to for advice telling you to stop

And killing the few people that YOU KNOW FOR A FACT are the only people that can actually deal with the main enemy is madness.

This is just false tho, nearly all the wardens aren't in ferelden, only a handful are.

[rusty_shackleford]

His association with Howe, even if he was a war hero, is what gives him a bad look

him being evil and ******** gives him a bad look

Loghain cared more about his daughter & the kingdom than the king did than anything beyond looking like a hero.

[Element]

It all goes back to the Orlesian occupation, where the chevaliers were allowed great "liberties" in how they treated the locals. So not at all surprising that Loghain 'Son of the Land' chimped at the thought of Cailan rolling out the red carpet for his sworn enemies.

[Big Red Dog]

His association with Howe, even if he was a war hero, is what gives him a bad look

him being evil and ******** gives him a bad look

Loghain cared more about his daughter & the kingdom than the king did than anything beyond looking like a hero.

loghain wanted the crown so he could be king of the ashes and whored his daughter out

[rusty_shackleford]

Another reason Cailan was a fool: he didn't kill Alistair. Kings didn't do this because they were cruel, but because that kind of **** lead to civil wars if something happened to the King leading to tens of thousands of your subjects dying.

[rusty_shackleford]

Counter-point: The guy who recently joined the Grey Wardens went and killed the archdemon and stopped the invasion. This actually happens in the game if you pay close enough attention.

So you're saying that Loghain is responsible for stopping the blight by not marching the main character to his death?

Turns out Arl Eamon is the true hero of the story for killing your family and getting you conscripted into the Grey Wardens. Arl Eamon was right.

Eamon was married to an Orlais, and wanted the king to leave the queen and marry the Orlesian empress. He should have been murdered himself for being a traitor.

[rusty_shackleford]

It all goes back to the Orlesian occupation, where the chevaliers were allowed great "liberties" in how they treated the locals. So not at all surprising that Loghain 'Son of the Land' chimped at the thought of Cailan rolling out the red carpet for his sworn enemies.

Traitors! Which of you stood against the Orlesian Emperor when his troops flattened your fields and RAPED YOUR WIVES? You fought with us once, Eamon! You cared about this land once, before you got too old and fat and content to even see what you risk! NONE OF YOU deserve a say in what happens here! None of you have spilled blood for this land the way I have! HOW DARE YOU JUDGE ME!

Hate doesn't describe it, I see painted masked lords beat an old farmer to death with riding crops. To this day I don't know why, is that hate? I saw senseless good men fighting Chevaliers with nothing! No weapon, no armies, not even hope of success to see the occupation end, is that hate?

In Orlais, the local knight was allowed to rape your wife & daughter, and if you attempted to interfere you were the one that was executed. What do you think they'd do riding in to "save" Ferelden?

Being occupied by Orlais is no different to defeat by Darkspawn in his mind, he's already seen it happen.

[DagothGeas5]

I can't recall, what was Loghain's plan for Ostagar? Or were they all there just because of Cailan and he would have done things differently from the start? And if so, what was he planning to do?

[KOS-MOS]

him being evil and ******** gives him a bad look

Loghain cared more about his daughter & the kingdom than the king did than anything beyond looking like a hero.

loghain wanted the crown so he could be king of the ashes and whored his daughter out

You should read the first book -also written by Gaider- to understand what kind of man Loghain was.

[Big Red Dog]

Loghain cared more about his daughter & the kingdom than the king did than anything beyond looking like a hero.

loghain wanted the crown so he could be king of the ashes and whored his daughter out

You should read the first book -also written by Gaider- to understand what kind of man Loghain was.

the only good videogame books are the early halo ones

[SoLong]

Another reason Cailan was a fool: he didn't kill Alistair. Kings didn't do this because they were cruel, but because that kind of **** lead to civil wars if something happened to the King leading to tens of thousands of your subjects dying.

Cailan didn't know Alistair is his brother. As far as he knew Alistair was a ******* servant at Redcliff castle.

Why would Cailan try to kill a servants unless he was a colossal bell end (like Loghain?).

[fkirenicus]

I assume that Loghain started out with good intentions, but he crossed the moral event horizon before the game even started.

Also, he didn't know Cailan's secret. Evidence for it can be found if you return to Ostagar and if you recruit him and take him there he's outraged to find out that his paranoid ravings were true for once.

While I do not agree completely with you, you have valid points. And it's fun to discuss DA lore - it is intricate, and at times contradictory. But such is the way of things (it's not exactly like GRRM's universe is devoid of "clerical errors", either).

(Also, I forgot to add an "if" statement in my first post, added now)

[rusty_shackleford]

Another reason Cailan was a fool: he didn't kill Alistair. Kings didn't do this because they were cruel, but because that kind of **** lead to civil wars if something happened to the King leading to tens of thousands of your subjects dying.

Cailan didn't know Alistair is his brother. As far as he knew Alistair was a ******* servant at Redcliff castle.

Why would Cailan try to kill a servants unless he was a colossal bell end (like Loghain?).

Yes, he did know. It's how Anora knew, she tells you this.

[fkirenicus]

In Orlais, the local knight was allowed to rape your wife & daughter, and if you attempted to interfere you were the one that was executed. What do you think they'd do riding in to "save" Ferelden?

Being occupied by Orlais is no different to defeat by Darkspawn in his mind, he's already seen it happen.

This is exactly what Loghain thought - and the fear of what he had seen in the past, made him make decisions that ultimately led to his downfall.

[rusty_shackleford]

that ultimately led to his downfall.

His whatnow?
you guys recruited him, right?

[SoLong]

I can't recall, what was Loghain's plan for Ostagar? Or were they all there just because of Cailan and he would have done things differently from the start? And if so, what was he planning to do?

Loghain withdrew his forces at Ostagar so that a) the King (the son of his "best friend") would die and b) the Grey Wardens (who he thought are plotting with Orlais because in Loghain's mind everyone not on his side is just an Orlesian pawn) would die with him. Kill two of his enemies at once while also depleting the armies of his political enemies' allies.

He also thought that the unending army of darkness (whose leader can't be killed by anyone but a Grey Warden) was like any other army he could outmaneuver and beat on the battlefield.

It's questionable which flavor of idiocy, insanity or self delusion best applies to him but it is at least one of those.

[DagothGeas5]

I can't recall, what was Loghain's plan for Ostagar? Or were they all there just because of Cailan and he would have done things differently from the start? And if so, what was he planning to do?

Loghain withdrew his forces at Ostagar so that a) the King (the son of his "best friend") would die and b) the Grey Wardens (who he thought are plotting with Orlais because in Loghain's mind everyone not on his side is just an Orlesian pawn) would die with him. Kill two of his enemies at once while also depleting the armies of his political enemies' allies.

He also thought that the unending army of darkness (whose leader can't be killed by anyone but a Grey Warden) was like any other army he could outmaneuver and beat on the battlefield.

It's questionable which flavor of idiocy, insanity or self delusion best applies to him but it is at least one of those.

So was only Cailan that wanted to be at Ostagar? Was Loghain there just because of the King's orders?

[SoLong]

Yes, he did know. It's how Anora knew, she tells you this.

Must have missed that because I couldn't kill the ***** fast enough and avoided any opportunity to talk to her. It's a pity you never actually do get to kill her.

That makes even less internal sense because Alistair himself didn't know and his father is off being imprisoned. Anora certainly isn't above having someone assassinated, particularly if that person wasn't know to be important.

Ugh. Now the ****** writing is retroactively tainting good things.