The Mage Robe/Armor Dilemma

[Vergil]

Getting heavily into TES games the way they handle "spell efficiency" has been on my mind. By making your spells worse by wearing armor, especially heavy armor. This has made me think about other RPGs who do and don't do this. Where do you guys stand on this? Should casters in games be forced into robes or can battlemages in plate be done effectively without neutering armor value or creating a dominant strategy?

[Big Red Dog]

there has to be an in universe explanation otherwise it's ********, why would wearing chainmail stop me from shooting fire out of my fingers?

[Vergil]

there has to be an in universe explanation otherwise it's ********, why would wearing chainmail stop me from shooting fire out of my fingers?

Issue with that is a really can't imagine a lore reason why except maybe casting magic takes a physical toll and unless you're yoked out your body can't handle the physical stress of heavy armor and casting spells.

[Stack of Turtles]

Getting heavily into TES games the way they handle "spell efficiency" has been on my mind. By making your spells worse by wearing armor, especially heavy armor. This has made me think about other RPGs who do and don't do this. Where do you guys stand on this? Should casters in games be forced into robes or can battlemages in plate be done effectively without neutering armor value or creating a dominant strategy?

I don't think you can avoid creating a dominant strategy without being totally unreasonable. After all, real life has dominant strategies. You can make it not so dominant that some people won't take the option, though.

[Orvas Dren]

Getting heavily into TES games the way they handle "spell efficiency" has been on my mind. By making your spells worse by wearing armor, especially heavy armor. This has made me think about other RPGs who do and don't do this. Where do you guys stand on this? Should casters in games be forced into robes or can battlemages in plate be done effectively without neutering armor value or creating a dominant strategy?

like Clifford says it needs to fit with the world. If magic is connected to alchemical principles then maybe being covered in metallurgic armor that isn't properly prepared could hamper ones ability. I think I'd prefer more natural reasoning though, like that using heavier armor requires more skill/atheltics to use comfortably on top of being expensive, and as a wizard tends to spend more time practicing magic and paying for magical-related goods like tomes and ingredients, would naturally gravitate towards comfy robes

[rusty_shackleford]

there has to be an in universe explanation otherwise it's ********, why would wearing chainmail stop me from shooting fire out of my fingers?

In D&D it was because spells with somatic components required precise movements that weren't capable of being done while wearing armor.

---

Personally, my favorite archetype is the magic knight, so…

[CSM-101]

I think it's fuckin stupid. If I want to pull a William Wallace and shoot lightning bolts from my *** while wearing Fort Knox, fuckin let me.

[Big Red Dog]

there has to be an in universe explanation otherwise it's ********, why would wearing chainmail stop me from shooting fire out of my fingers?

In D&D it was because spells with somatic components required precise movements that weren't capable of being done while wearing armor.

---

Personally, my favorite archetype is the magic knight, so…

chainmail doesn't stop precise movements and even plate armor can be fitted and shaped to allow the precise movements needed. even if the wizard/mage had wimpy stick arms he could just wear a plate vest or chain vest.

[Brother Michael]

Unless the somatic component requires you to do yoga, you could easily just not wear gloves if you’re not engaging in melee combat. I think the alchemical reason is preferable, but you then have to square why the victim of the magic doesn’t benefit from this metallurgical interaction. The way I prefer it is armor being prohibitively expensive. At least in a tabletop game, a party with limited funds must prioritize who gets plate armor that needs to be fitted to have its full effect.

[rusty_shackleford]

there has to be an in universe explanation otherwise it's ********, why would wearing chainmail stop me from shooting fire out of my fingers?

In D&D it was because spells with somatic components required precise movements that weren't capable of being done while wearing armor.

---

Personally, my favorite archetype is the magic knight, so…

there has to be an in universe explanation otherwise it's ********, why would wearing chainmail stop me from shooting fire out of my fingers?

In D&D it was because spells with somatic components required precise movements that weren't capable of being done while wearing armor.

---

Personally, my favorite archetype is the magic knight, so…

chainmail doesn't stop precise movements and even plate armor can be fitted and shaped to allow the precise movements needed. even if the wizard/mage had wimpy stick arms he could just wear a plate vest or chain vest.

After double-checking, I was incorrect and am likely mixing it up with 3.5E.
AD&D allowed spellcasting in armor as long as you were of a class that could wear said armor. An elven fighter/magic user(and any similar MU+armor using class) are allowed to cast spells while clad in armor.

[ArcaneLurker]

In KOTOR, the reason they gave was that the armour disrupted the user's connection to the force.

[Big Red Dog]

In KOTOR, the reason they gave was that the armour disrupted the user's connection to the force.

isn't darth vader like the ultimate force user who was created by palpatine having sex with the force and is constantly encased in his suit

[rusty_shackleford]

In KOTOR, the reason they gave was that the armour disrupted the user's connection to the force.

isn't darth vader like the ultimate force user who was created by palpatine having sex with the force and is constantly encased in his suit

Vader is significantly weaker than Anakin was capable of being.

[ArcaneLurker]

In KOTOR, the reason they gave was that the armour disrupted the user's connection to the force.

isn't darth vader like the ultimate force user who was created by palpatine having sex with the force and is constantly encased in his suit

Yeah, so it should be possible, it's just the excuse they used.
They did come up with an answer to that: Anakin is oozing with so many midicloirans that even with that nerf, he can still do what most Jedi can't.

[UltraFan123]

I belive the out-of-universe meta explanation is that game devs want the mages to look like Gandalf, but the reason Gandalf didn't wear any armor in-story wasn't because he couldn't, it was simply that he was so powerful that almost nothing in Middle Earth could hurt him so there was no need for him to use armor of any sort.

[Big Red Dog]

I belive the out-of-universe meta explanation is that game devs want the mages to look like Gandalf, but the reason Gandalf didn't wear any armor in-story wasn't because he couldn't, it was simply that he was so powerful that almost nothing in Middle Earth could hurt him so there was no need for him to use armor of any sort.

gandalf was afraid of wolves what the **** are you talking about

[UltraFan123]

I belive the out-of-universe meta explanation is that game devs want the mages to look like Gandalf, but the reason Gandalf didn't wear any armor in-story wasn't because he couldn't, it was simply that he was so powerful that almost nothing in Middle Earth could hurt him so there was no need for him to use armor of any sort.

gandalf was afraid of wolves what the **** are you talking about

Sorry should've specified that it was after he became Gandalf the White.

[Vergil]

In KOTOR, the reason they gave was that the armour disrupted the user's connection to the force.

And it was really stupid when the face of the game (Darth Revan) was running around with a breastplate, greaves and gauntlets in flashbacks.

Not to mention figures in the lore like Darth Bane and Krayt who are iconic for their massive armors.

[gerey]

While I have nothing against spellcasters being allowed to wear armor, the reason why you don't see it more often is simply because there are certain expectations when it comes to archetypes. Tolkien wasn't reinventing the wheel when it came to Gandal, he was tapping into the collective storytelling consciousness of humanity.

It's why a wizard in armor will always look "off".

The way I prefer it is armor being prohibitively expensive. At least in a tabletop game, a party with limited funds must prioritize who gets plate armor that needs to be fitted to have its full effect.

The issue with that is that armor wasn't prohibitively expensive, at least not in Europe. Yes, a bespoke suit of plate made by a German or Italian armorer was going to cost you an arm and a leg, but there was nothing stopping less prestigious individuals from purchasing something like a brigandine. Alternatively, if you go ahead a few centuries, we begin seeing "standardized" munitions-grade armor that was being mass produced.

Then again, alchemically or magically enhanced armor that can withstand spells or magical weapons should be scarce.

Vader is significantly weaker than Anakin was capable of being.

That always felt like a completely unnecessary explanation that added nothing to the character. Vader dominated every confrontation he was in right until the very end of Episode VI, and was defeated by Luke tapping into the Dark Side and the simple fact that Vader was old by that point.

[maidenhaver]

Battlemages were a knight class, in Cyrodiil, and Oblivion depicts one with two axes and some blend of armor. The Mages Guild have the Order of the Lamp, on top of that. If the empire conquered the continent with them, why can't I larp as an effective spellsword/battlemage? I don't remember any explanation for this.

[SoLong]

I remember a game that had an actual in-universe explanation; the name escapes me though.

Basically magic was powered by the Fair Folk, that is to say fairies, pixies and so forth. Those were all weak to non-noble metals (with cold iron being the worst) so wearing those metals impedes your ability to call on their power while wearing a lot of it all but shuts it down completely.

Of course it also means you were more resistant to that same magic in exchange (which is basically just the AC increase in practice) as long as the magic targets you directly.

I remember one player being an insufferable powergamer; he basically decked himself out in cold iron until he was a walking fortress. He wanted to cut the quest short and attack some unseelie (basically fairies but evil instead of dickish) noble directly to have his main character moment.

The noble beat him in one turn by turning the ground they were standing on into a lake. The powergamer drowned because he couldn't get out of his armor quickly enough.

[Big Red Dog]

Battlemages were a knight class, in Cyrodiil, and Oblivion depicts one with two axes and some blend of armor. The Mages Guild have the Order of the Lamp, on top of that. If the empire conquered the continent with them, why can't I larp as an effective spellsword/battlemage? I don't remember any explanation for this.

how do you larp in a videogame

[Vergil]

Battlemages were a knight class, in Cyrodiil, and Oblivion depicts one with two axes and some blend of armor. The Mages Guild have the Order of the Lamp, on top of that. If the empire conquered the continent with them, why can't I larp as an effective spellsword/battlemage? I don't remember any explanation for this.

There is no explanation and it's an example of the lore and gameplay being entirely at odds with each other. You see Imperial battlemages in full plate with no reason to believe they're somehow weaker for it.

[maidenhaver]

Battlemages were a knight class, in Cyrodiil, and Oblivion depicts one with two axes and some blend of armor. The Mages Guild have the Order of the Lamp, on top of that. If the empire conquered the continent with them, why can't I larp as an effective spellsword/battlemage? I don't remember any explanation for this.

how do you larp in a videogame

How do you keep getting in? Is it a trait all mexicans have?

[Finarfin]

I belive the out-of-universe meta explanation is that game devs want the mages to look like Gandalf, but the reason Gandalf didn't wear any armor in-story wasn't because he couldn't, it was simply that he was so powerful that almost nothing in Middle Earth could hurt him so there was no need for him to use armor of any sort.

gandalf was afraid of wolves what the **** are you talking about

****** what are you on about? Gandalf was not afraid of wolves. He recognized the danger they pose, not for himself but rather those he aids and travels with. The wolves that attack the Fellowship after they climb back down from Caradhras were most likely not normal wolves since he says that they aren't normal. Which could mean that they were werewolves. Sauron after all was the lord of them.

[Vergil]

I belive the out-of-universe meta explanation is that game devs want the mages to look like Gandalf, but the reason Gandalf didn't wear any armor in-story wasn't because he couldn't, it was simply that he was so powerful that almost nothing in Middle Earth could hurt him so there was no need for him to use armor of any sort.

gandalf was afraid of wolves what the **** are you talking about

****** what are you on about? Gandalf was not afraid of wolves. He recognized the danger they pose, not for himself but rather those he aids and travels with. The wolves that attack the Fellowship after they climb back down from Caradhras were most likely not normal wolves since he says that they aren't normal. Which could mean that they were werewolves. Sauron after all was the lord of them.

So what you're saying is Mairon is a friend to animals whilst gaydalf hates dogs like a muslim?

[logincrash]

In KOTOR, the reason they gave was that the armour disrupted the user's connection to the force.

And it was really stupid when the face of the game (Darth Revan) was running around with a breastplate, greaves and gauntlets in flashbacks.

Not to mention figures in the lore like Darth Bane and Krayt who are iconic for their massive armors.

Both Revan's and Bane's armors were special, though.
Before turning Dark, Revan wore Jedi robes and a pilfered Mandalorian mask. He started wearing a full suit of armor after he found the Star Forge that was built by the Force-using Rakata. The Star Forge armor you get in-game is dependent on your Light/Dark meter too, so it's bound to be Force sensitive.
Darth Bane is wearing a parasitic armor that grew around him from like 2-3 dinner plate sized bugs. They are explicitly said to be feeding on the Force. And he nearly dies trying to get out of the bug armor.

No idea who Krayt is other than he might be a Tusken.

[Finarfin]

gandalf was afraid of wolves what the **** are you talking about

****** what are you on about? Gandalf was not afraid of wolves. He recognized the danger they pose, not for himself but rather those he aids and travels with. The wolves that attack the Fellowship after they climb back down from Caradhras were most likely not normal wolves since he says that they aren't normal. Which could mean that they were werewolves. Sauron after all was the lord of them.

So what you're saying is Mairon is a friend to animals whilst gaydalf hates dogs like a muslim?

Not exactly. These werewolves are pure evil since they are wolves possessed by spirits of men or elves that in turn were controlled by sauron/mairon

[Shillitron]

Lotta "Real World Logic = Better" and "Pillars Might Wizard" fagging going on here.

Wizard's don't get heavy armor. Period. Don't like it? Multiclass.

[rusty_shackleford]

Mages don't wear armor because they're ******* who enjoy wearing dresses unlike magic knights who are alpha males