Chronicling the inability of gamedevs to make video games

[rusty_shackleford]

Reminds me of the talk some foid at obsidian gave ranting about 'rockstar developers'(surely @Roguey could find it) that was essentially a giant rant about people like avellone/sawyer just being superior to them

[rusty_shackleford]

Tim Cain talking about how modern devs need 4 weeks to write something that would usually take only 45 minutes. Taking on responsibility is also out the window:

"Games cost more[to produce] now"

I want him to explain why he thinks this is. Despite rapid increases in computing power, advances in tooling, advances in the engine technology, off-the-shelf engines being widely used.
I want his opinion on why they cost more to produce now than when his team was making complex clay sculptures and 3D scanning them to create talking heads rather than having someone do a quick digital sculpt in 30 minutes.

[Breathe]

Tim Cain talking about how modern devs need 4 weeks to write something that would usually take only 45 minutes. Taking on responsibility is also out the window:

This was the video I was trying to remember. Thanks for posting it. You know this situation has got to be commonplace in the AAA space.

[Magick]

Tim Cain talking about how modern devs need 4 weeks to write something that would usually take only 45 minutes. Taking on responsibility is also out the window:

"Games cost more[to produce] now"

I want him to explain why he thinks this is. Despite rapid increases in computing power, advances in tooling, advances in the engine technology, off-the-shelf engines being widely used.
I want his opinion on why the cost more to produce now than when his team was making complex clay sculptures and 3D scanning them to create talking heads rather than having someone do a quick digital sculpt in 30 minutes.

Training / education is much more widespread and common now, too. So people don't have to spend ages learning on the go..
(Of course the current lot being more "educated" hasn't stopped a massive decline in quality, but still, they don't have an excuse for needing more man hours).

[rusty_shackleford]

What do you guys think the budget for Kingdom Come Deliverance would be if the same exact game was made by Bethesda, CDProjekt Red, or Obsidian? I'm guessing close to half a billion dollars, which is about the budget of Starfield.

The total development cost of KCD was about $36.5 million btw. Even the "developers cost more in America" argument won't work, because KCD was made in poland's shoe, where CDPR is.

[Stack of Turtles]

Tim Cain talking about how modern devs need 4 weeks to write something that would usually take only 45 minutes. Taking on responsibility is also out the window:

Man, count on a *** to notice an issue and then miss the point completely.

[rusty_shackleford]

Tim Cain talking about how modern devs need 4 weeks to write something that would usually take only 45 minutes. Taking on responsibility is also out the window:

Man, count on a *** to notice an issue and then miss the point completely.

He values his ability to talk about eating **** out of a man's ******* higher than anything else. And any real solution would remove this.

[Rigwort]

It's just that "video game dev" is for whatever reason a normal job now. And with normal jobs you get people who don't like their job and are just doing it for money. They are usually more focused on time with family, hobbies, and a life outside their job to be interested in it. So less work = more energy outside of work. People like this game the system, basically. I don't fault them when they're in regular office jobs, because those jobs are usually not real anyways. However game dev is an "art" job. It requires you to give everything you are able to. Time, energy, passion are funneled into the game. (This is also partially the reason why game dev is better suited for degens).

[rusty_shackleford]

It's just that "video game dev" is for whatever reason a normal job now. And with normal jobs you get people who don't like their job and are just doing it for money. They are usually more focused on time with family, hobbies, and a life outside their job to be interested in it. So less work = more energy outside of work. People like this game the system, basically. I don't fault them when they're in regular office jobs, because those jobs are usually not real anyways. However game dev is an "art" job. It requires you to give everything you are able to. Time, energy, passion are funneled into the game. (This is also partially the reason why game dev is better suited for degens).

software engineering has always been just a regular job, one of his main examples was just regular software engineering

[Nooneatall]

Game developers get paid like and treated like **** while writing some of the worst and buggiest code.
They used to be much better at writing code and making games when it was just white dudes. Roller coaster tycoon was written in assembly by a genius. Pokemon is also assembly (but is buggy and bad code due to crunch shot). Fast forward to today when it's women and minorities writing scripts in engines they don't even understand and having endless meetings about pronouns

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Pokemon

The second Pokemon game required one of Nintendo's rockstar programmers to step in so that Kanto could be fit onto the cartridge. From GBA onward the series always lagged behind aesthetically compared to contemporary pixelart GBA/DS games despite being Nintendo's flagship franchise and theoretically being able to afford the top talent and however many resources required to make the best game possible. And then from the 3DS onwards it's just downright tragic with the 3D models and animations and framerate, and it somehow got worse with the Switch games.

[Rigwort]

It's just that "video game dev" is for whatever reason a normal job now. And with normal jobs you get people who don't like their job and are just doing it for money. They are usually more focused on time with family, hobbies, and a life outside their job to be interested in it. So less work = more energy outside of work. People like this game the system, basically. I don't fault them when they're in regular office jobs, because those jobs are usually not real anyways. However game dev is an "art" job. It requires you to give everything you are able to. Time, energy, passion are funneled into the game. (This is also partially the reason why game dev is better suited for degens).

software engineering has always been just a regular job, one of his main examples was just regular software engineering

Yes, but that's like saying architecture is the same as civil engineering.

[Roguey]

Reminds me of the talk some foid at obsidian gave ranting about 'rockstar developers'(surely @Roguey could find it) that was essentially a giant rant about people like avellone/sawyer just being superior to them

Carrie Patel with No Mavericks, No Martyrs https://www.summarize.tech/www.youtube. ... bRVE_y1m18

00:00:00 In this section, Carrie Patel, a game director and narrative designer at Obsidian Entertainment, discusses the harmful impact of two common team roles, Mavericks and martyrs. Mavericks are outside-the-box thinkers who don't let pipelines and best practices get in their way, but their short-term fixes can lead to more problems than they solve. For example, if a Maverick takes shortcuts and produces unpolished work, this can result in bugs and performance debt that will need to be resolved by other team members. These roles are often glorified in the industry as passion, but they can lead to dysfunction and overwork, even on healthy teams trying to avoid crunch.
00:05:00 In this section, the speaker discusses the negative consequences of using hacked or temporary work in game development. Although they may seem like time-savers or placeholders, this approach can lead to costlier issues and bugs down the line, which may be difficult to track down and fix. Additionally, using shortcuts can increase the scope of the project and create unscheduled work for the team, as well as lead to a false sense of success. The speaker also highlights the potential dangers of having a "martyr" mentality in game development, where hard-working team members may prioritize completing their own work over the team's overall goals and deadlines.
00:10:00 In this section, the video discusses the long-term problems caused by the bad habits of martyrs and mavericks. The first problem is bad data, where teams lose track of the actual time taken to complete a task and end up planning assuming that they will get the extra time. Another problem is the overtime arms race, which resets the team-wide expectation around work-life balance, leading to a culture of resentment and mistrust. The video also acknowledges the issue of diversity in leadership and whose ambition is allowed to thrive. The video proposes an alternative where great teams make great games, not solo contributors, and we should focus on the project as a whole rather than personal work at the expense of the team. To achieve this, the video suggests busting myths that equate passion with overwork and aggressive behavior.

[J1M]

Have we had any posts about firings before they happen?

Unrelated: 500 people working on World of Warcraft just formed a union. And 50 WoW QA people in Texas formed a different union...

[1998]

Have we had any posts about firings before they happen?

Unrelated: 500 people working on World of Warcraft just formed a union. And 50 WoW QA people in Texas formed a different union...

I never played WoW, not interested in it whatsoever. But them going from the OG team to 500+ people union is just sad

[rusty_shackleford]

Have we had any posts about firings before they happen?

Unrelated: 500 people working on World of Warcraft just formed a union. And 50 WoW QA people in Texas formed a different union...

I never played WoW, not interested in it whatsoever. But them going from the OG team to 500+ people union is just sad

Very ironic that Blizzard became the equivalent of a vanilla WoW raid: a bunch of coattail riders who are there to be carried by competent people.

[Brother Chad]

[corporate-brained garbage]

Ah yes, more talking points from people who got hired for reasons other than talent. We hate people who have passion and skills. We'd rather hire more useless garbage idiots. Collaboration, not auteurs.

6000 more Redfall failures until we learn.

[Roguey]

Ah yes, more talking points from people who got hired for reasons other than talent. We hate people who have passion and skills. We'd rather hire more useless garbage idiots. Collaboration, not auteurs.

6000 more Redfall failures until we learn.

They needed another writer for Pillars of Eternity and Obsidian's hiring policy at the time was that it had to be someone Eric Fenstermaker could see himself getting along with.

[Rand]

[StudiedAsleep]

It’s a pretty lacklustre game too. Not any upgrades, not many maps, short campaign, awful graphics. Somehow still is more fun than the slop others are putting out

[UltraFan123]

Another problem is the overtime arms race, which resets the team-wide expectation around work-life balance, leading to a culture of resentment and mistrust.
The video proposes an alternative where great teams make great games, not solo contributors, and we should focus on the project as a whole rather than personal work at the expense of the team.

So basically;

Individualistic talent which is allowed to shine = Bad

Hive mind mentality where nobody excels at anything and everyone is equally pathetic = Good

Can't make this **** up. lol

[Breathe]

Another problem is the overtime arms race, which resets the team-wide expectation around work-life balance, leading to a culture of resentment and mistrust.
The video proposes an alternative where great teams make great games, not solo contributors, and we should focus on the project as a whole rather than personal work at the expense of the team.

So basically;

Individualistic talent which is allowed to shine = Bad

Hive mind mentality where nobody excels at anything and everyone is equally pathetic = Good

Can't make this **** up. lol

That's communism for ya.

[rusty_shackleford]

Another problem is the overtime arms race, which resets the team-wide expectation around work-life balance, leading to a culture of resentment and mistrust.
The video proposes an alternative where great teams make great games, not solo contributors, and we should focus on the project as a whole rather than personal work at the expense of the team.

So basically;

Individualistic talent which is allowed to shine = Bad

Hive mind mentality where nobody excels at anything and everyone is equally pathetic = Good

Can't make this **** up. lol

Yes, because they don't actually care about making a good product but being 'part of the industry'. They're all coattail riders.

[anonusername]

Reminds me of the talk some foid at obsidian gave ranting about 'rockstar developers'(surely @Roguey could find it) that was essentially a giant rant about people like avellone/sawyer just being superior to them

I think it's partly people like avellone and sawyer thinking they're better than everyone else because they had their 15 minutes of fame, and mostly "new" devs being salty because they are too incompetent to prove them wrong.

[rusty_shackleford]

Reminds me of the talk some foid at obsidian gave ranting about 'rockstar developers'(surely @Roguey could find it) that was essentially a giant rant about people like avellone/sawyer just being superior to them

I think it's partly people like avellone and sawyer thinking they're better than everyone else because they had their 15 minutes of fame, and mostly "new" devs being salty because they are too incompetent to prove them wrong.

In their prime, they absolutely were better. It's just a difference between masculine and feminine response to someone being superior to you — "This man is better than me, I must study from him to be better" vs "This person is better than me, I must figure out a way to bring them down to my level"

[anonusername]

Reminds me of the talk some foid at obsidian gave ranting about 'rockstar developers'(surely @Roguey could find it) that was essentially a giant rant about people like avellone/sawyer just being superior to them

I think it's partly people like avellone and sawyer thinking they're better than everyone else because they had their 15 minutes of fame, and mostly "new" devs being salty because they are too incompetent to prove them wrong.

In their prime, they absolutely were better. It's just a difference between masculine and feminine response to someone being superior to you — "This man is better than me, I must study from him to be better" vs "This person is better than me, I must figure out a way to bring them down to my level"

They're still better, hence the inability for these ******* to prove them wrong. Sawyer et. al may be far past their prime, but the average has dropped so far it doesn't matter.

[Oyster Sauce]

Alien is back! In acne-scar riddled negress VR form.

[Nooneatall]

Alien is back! In acne-scar riddled negress VR form.

Holy ******* **** is the creature in the thumbnail the alien? Are they trying to make these "people" as ugly as possible?
Games sure are **** these days.

[rusty_shackleford]

Alien is back! In acne-scar riddled negress VR form.

the alien in the thumbnail is scary

[CSM-101]

Alien is back! In acne-scar riddled negress VR form.

Holy ******* **** is the creature in the thumbnail the alien? Are they trying to make these "people" as ugly as possible?
Games sure are **** these days.

VR only? Can safely ignore. The Steam forums are already delivering on people not wanting to play as the xenomorph.