Why do some RPGs only let you have two party members at a time?

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Currently playing KotoR. I am reminded of how it feels bad having more party members you like than you can bring in battle. Do these devs keep the party member count low because of the difficulty of designing for many party members? I know that Final Fantasy XII was supposed to have the player leading squadrons, but the game was already rubbing up against the performance limitations of the PS2 (the game runs at reduced resolution and 1/3rd of the screen is chopped off by letterboxing), and had to cut down on the number of character models onscreen, so in the end the player can only have two additional party members + 1 occasional guest. But the number of character models onscreen isn't a limiting factor anymore, so is the limiting factor here the devs' unwillingness to try to balance combat around more party members?

Would be nice if there were more games like Suikoden or Guild Wars 1 that let you have up to six or eight of your favorite party members at once.

[Vergil]

In the past I would guess it's a technical limitation. Now I guess it's a competence limitation.

[asf]

remember when party member made games fun instead of being a source of endless cringe and ****** writing

[Greyborne]

I would imagine it's the ladder. On top of combat, they'd also have to construct more character relationship dynamics. Would have been nice to have more party members on screen with the Mass Effect trilogy. Loved hearing Wrex and Garrus talk ****.

[Tweed]

The bigger the party, the better.

[rusty_shackleford]

combinatorial explosion of NPC interactions/reactions with each other
tbf, companions rarely acknowledge each other to begin with even when kept limited to a small number.

[edit]
I strongly suspect this is something that will be handled with AI in the future, generating dialogue based on the NPC & world-state.

[BlueMemphis]

I blame it on the trend for dumbing down and keeping things fast paced and accessible for consoles.

Proof? The same games doing that also have less buttons for skills and commands, and the reason is always so they can be played with a controller.

[Roguey]

Balance and design goals.

[Tweed]

combinatorial explosion of NPC interactions/reactions with each other
tbf, companions rarely acknowledge each other to begin with even when kept limited to a small number.

[edit]
I strongly suspect this is something that will be handled with AI in the future, generating dialogue based on the NPC & world-state.

Was about to say. With the power of AI we could have large parties with members that can interact and even grow relationships with one another.

Of course, the AI will be pozz'd so everyone will be nymphomaniac bisexuals.

[Oyster Sauce]

The other day I was saying it's a shame they only let you use two companions which cuts most players off from using all of the droid equipment they find. Blasters and armor too, really.

[aweigh]

Currently playing KotoR. I am reminded of how it feels bad having more party members you like than you can bring in battle. Do these devs keep the party member count low because of the difficulty of designing for many party members? I know that Final Fantasy XII was supposed to have the player leading squadrons, but the game was already rubbing up against the performance limitations of the PS2 (the game runs at reduced resolution and 1/3rd of the screen is chopped off by letterboxing), and had to cut down on the number of character models onscreen, so in the end the player can only have two additional party members + 1 occasional guest. But the number of character models onscreen isn't a limiting factor anymore, so is the limiting factor here the devs' unwillingness to try to balance combat around more party members?

Would be nice if there were more games like Suikoden or Guild Wars 1 that let you have up to six or eight of your favorite party members at once.

probably at least partially related to the MMO Trinity design of healer/attacker/defender.

[rusty_shackleford]

combinatorial explosion of NPC interactions/reactions with each other
tbf, companions rarely acknowledge each other to begin with even when kept limited to a small number.

After thinking on it, it might actually be closer to

Balance and design goals.

Most RPGs don't give a **** about making companions actually interact/react with the world to begin with.

[Oldtimer]

Most RPGs don't give a **** about making companions actually interact/react with the world to begin with.

Modern RPGs; BG1 and especially 2 and NWN 2 for example had some of that.

[Roguey]

Modern RPGs; BG1 and especially 2 and NWN 2 for example had some of that.

It's the opposite. Baldur's Gate companions had very little writing. 2 had quite a number of banters between party members and some interjections with other NPCs. RPGs with companions from the past decade and more have had significantly more to say.

[rusty_shackleford]

RPGs with companions from the past decade

There has been like 2 rpgs made in the past 10 years

[Roguey]

There has been like 2 rpgs made in the past 10 years

Dragon Age Inquisition, Pillars of Eternity, Shadowrun Hong Kong, Tyranny, Tides of Numenera, Mass Effect Andromeda, Divinity Original Sin 2, Deadfire, Kingmaker, Greedfall, Wasteland 3. Wrath of the Righteous, Black Geyser, Baldur's Gate 3.

[rusty_shackleford]

There has been like 2 rpgs made in the past 10 years

Dragon Age Inquisition, Pillars of Eternity, Shadowrun Hong Kong, Tyranny, Tides of Numenera, Mass Effect Andromeda, Divinity Original Sin 2, Deadfire, Kingmaker, Greedfall, Wasteland 3. Wrath of the Righteous, Black Geyser, Baldur's Gate 3.

literally none of these ever have more than two companions interact with each other simultaneously
wasteland 3 doesn't even have the concept of companions

[The_Mask]

I just realized that Dragonfall was released 10 years ago.

[Roguey]

There has been like 2 rpgs made in the past 10 years

Dragon Age Inquisition, Pillars of Eternity, Shadowrun Hong Kong, Tyranny, Tides of Numenera, Mass Effect Andromeda, Divinity Original Sin 2, Deadfire, Kingmaker, Greedfall, Wasteland 3. Wrath of the Righteous, Black Geyser, Baldur's Gate 3.

literally none of these ever have more than two companions interact with each other simultaneously
wasteland 3 doesn't even have the concept of companions

Incorrect on both counts. Here's a conversation with three companions from Tyranny:


(Chris Avellone claims that he heard that the narrative designers and scripters got "exhausted designing reactivity and wouldn't mind making things more linear")

And Wasteland 3 has recruits who have their own personalities and reactivity to the world https://wasteland.fandom.com/wiki/Waste ... companions

[rusty_shackleford]

Dragon Age Inquisition, Pillars of Eternity, Shadowrun Hong Kong, Tyranny, Tides of Numenera, Mass Effect Andromeda, Divinity Original Sin 2, Deadfire, Kingmaker, Greedfall, Wasteland 3. Wrath of the Righteous, Black Geyser, Baldur's Gate 3.

literally none of these ever have more than two companions interact with each other simultaneously
wasteland 3 doesn't even have the concept of companions

Incorrect on both counts. Here's a conversation with three companions from Tyranny:


(Chris Avellone claims that he heard that the narrative designers and scripters got "exhausted designing reactivity and wouldn't mind making things more linear")

And Wasteland 3 has recruits who have their own personalities and reactivity to the world https://wasteland.fandom.com/wiki/Waste ... companions

"here's one example that resulted in lazy writers being upset that they had to not be lazy and wanted to go back to being lazy"
that's called me being right

you argue like a woman, roguey.

[Roguey]

literally none of these ever have more than two companions interact with each other simultaneously
wasteland 3 doesn't even have the concept of companions

Incorrect on both counts. Here's a conversation with three companions from Tyranny:


(Chris Avellone claims that he heard that the narrative designers and scripters got "exhausted designing reactivity and wouldn't mind making things more linear")

And Wasteland 3 has recruits who have their own personalities and reactivity to the world https://wasteland.fandom.com/wiki/Waste ... companions

"here's one example that resulted in lazy writers being upset that they had to not be lazy and wanted to go back to being lazy"
that's called me being right

you argue like a woman, roguey.

"Literally none of these" That is not being right.

Additionally here's Wrath of the Righteous with another sexy threeway conversation.


It's asking too much to expect me have half a dozen or more examples off-hand.

I also wouldn't call them lazy. I've used a tool to create reactivity, it's a lot of work. Moreso if they're doing it all by hand. Have to rein in the scope for your own peace of mind, things could potentially get very out-of-hand.

[Vergil]

I just realized that Dragonfall was released 10 years ago.

Read this as Daggerfall first and lul'd

[rusty_shackleford]

it's a lot of work.

so is working at mcdonalds, what's your point?

[Roguey]

it's a lot of work.

so is working at mcdonalds, what's your point?

McDonald's employees get paid time and a half for overtime. No such luck with salaried employees, and they're given a budget and a deadline to deliver a game with x features and y content often under circumstances where the studio head agreed to an unreasonable contract because the publishers love to play hardball.

[rusty_shackleford]

it's a lot of work.

so is working at mcdonalds, what's your point?

McDonald's employees get paid time and a half for overtime. No such luck with salaried employees, and they're given a budget and a deadline to deliver a game with x features and y content often under circumstances where the studio head agreed to an unreasonable contract because the publishers love to play hardball.

mcdonalds employees get paid like 10 bucks an hour to bust their *** in a hot kitchen
video game writers get paid a salary to whine on twitter in an air conditioned office about having to do their job

[The_Mask]

I'm not sure why people look down on McDonalds employees. They're above a lot of other people. And, largely, they don't have a choice BUT to work at McDonalds...

[1998]

I'm not sure why people look down on McDonalds employees. They're above a lot of other people. And, largely, they don't have a choice BUT to work at McDonalds...

Don't understand that either. I have a lot more respect for the average McDonalds worker than for lots of corpo drones (HR, nepo babies, INFLUENCERS, coaches...)

[BlueMemphis]

And yet it is socially more acceptable to be unemployed and living off benefits then it is to be a lowly service worker like a mcdonalds employee.

Humans truly like to create their own hell.

[Vlajdimir Ermenović]

combinatorial explosion of NPC interactions/reactions with each other
tbf, companions rarely acknowledge each other to begin with even when kept limited to a small number.

[edit]
I strongly suspect this is something that will be handled with AI in the future, generating dialogue based on the NPC & world-state.

Shadowrun: Dragonfall had a good idea of having fully written partners you can interact with, as well as mercenaries which enable an old-school full-party creation style of play.

[gerey]

Currently playing KotoR. I am reminded of how it feels bad having more party members you like than you can bring in battle. Do these devs keep the party member count low because of the difficulty of designing for many party members?

Doubtful considering KOTOR 1 has been balanced in such a way that even a child could complete it. You can basically **** up your build utterly and the game is still beatable. Whether this was intentional or just typical BioWare incompetence I have no clue.

The other day I was saying it's a shame they only let you use two companions which cuts most players off from using all of the droid equipment they find. Blasters and armor too, really.

There's no reason why BioWare couldn't have upped the number to four, other than limitations with the control scheme and interface. I doubt it was a hardware limitation.

Arguably, KOTOR 1 had far too many companions that serve the same role, and all of those fall by the wayside once you get access to Force users.

I'm not sure why people look down on McDonalds employees. They're above a lot of other people. And, largely, they don't have a choice BUT to work at McDonalds...

Being a burger flipper was never meant to be a career. It's a job for high-schoolers or university students, not working adults with families to feed. It's a sign of how ****** up the situation is that they have no other recourse but work there.