Grinding, Farming, and Mind Numbing

[Vergil]

Curious to get some general feedback on how you guys feel about grinding/farming in RPGs. What is the threshold before it gets too tedious to be acceptable? Is it EVER acceptable to make a player repeatedly to the same task again and again? Is there a difference between grinding to incrementally earn XP to slowly work your way to a higher level or farming a particular enemy for a rare drop?

So the two games I've played recently/am playing have been Castlevania Dawn of Sorrow and Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines which handle the almost ubiquitous RPG mechanic of "grinding" with almost polar opposite design philosophies.
In Dawn of Sorrow not only will you be in for a very bad time if you don't grind (as detailed in this post) but you are extremely unlikely to be able to beat the game with the true ending if you do not spend a lot of time grinding low percent chance drops. Likewise leveling up is handled entirely by earning XP from killing enemies. If you want you can repeatedly kill the first enemy in the game over and over again until you're max level if you hate your life that much.
Bloodlines handles things entirely differently. Killing enemies gives you reward besides whatever weapon/ammo they may be carrying. Experience is handled entirely via quest progression. Loot on enemies is never random and iirc never unique or worth much. I think this is a pretty interesting and appealing way of doing things. A lot of games (like Deus Ex Human Revolution) run into a problem of wanting to offer diverse playstyles but essentially penalizing you for not going back and clearing rooms or exploring every possible path to get those precious experience points. Bloodlines makes it to where even if you want to play as a total ghost you're not losing out on XP for doing so.

[wndrbr]

The first Deus Ex had the same approach as VTMB - gave you xp only for doing quests, exploring areas and finding secrets.

[KnightoftheWind]

I think grinding should be purely optional, and not something the player has to do for hours and hours. Ideally all meaningful XP gains should be reserved for sidequests and optional areas where more meaningful items/treasures can be found. You should never be forced to go out in an empty field and fight trash mobs over and over again. The RPGs that do that aren't good RPGs IMO.

[OnTilt]

I remember there being quite a bit of grind to the old pokemon games. You get new pokemon and need to catch it up for a gym, breeding pokemon, farming drop items, etc. None of it ever bothered me, in fact it was relaxing.

On the other hand if I played a proper RPG that required the same amount of grind I would drop it in a heartbeat.

I wonder what makes the difference.

[Acrux]

Depending on the type of grinding, I sometimes find it enjoyable. In a game like Final Fantasy V, I'll grind for job points while, but not really pay attention to the game. I suppose it's almost like dreaming - giving my brain time to rest and sort through the day while having some kind of mental stimulation.

[Fuze]

For action focused RPG, I don't mind grinding a bit as long as it is optional and just for a completionist run, and as long as it only a single gaming session to get the item/required masteries level/similar BS.
For tactical oriented RPG, it can be okay as long as it used as an excuse to try alternative strategy or build, ie finding a different solution to a similar "problem" that you're already solved before. I don't see it as grinding if it's a secondary objective where you face new enemies altogether.

The Jap unfortunately tend to love grinding a bit too much, and a generation of eastern men have been broken by gacha. I played SMT:devil survivor, on NG+ you get the possibility to fight lucifer. Thing is, his stat are so absurd that you're going to need several playtrough to get enough money, XP and demon unlocked in order to not get stat checked instantly, and even so, you will still need to farm for an hour or two to bring your human character on this playthrough up to the level.

[Element]

I refuse to do it

[Falksi]

Not my thing, but I don't mind doing it for 5-10 minutes here and there if needs be. So long as the grind isn't vapid.

After 20 minutes grinding I start to consider the game flawed.

[rusty_shackleford]

Western vs Eastern design divide, I hate grinding.

[Norfleet]

I'm somewhat more context-sensitive when it comes to grinding. I don't personally care for grinding if I'm the only one do it, like a single player game, but I don't mind if it functions as a barrier to weed out other players, like an MMO. Particularly when it means that the act of grinding becomes profitable through the refusal of others to do it.

[Nooneatall]

I love my grinding games where I press buttons like a zombie while listening to a podcast or something. I don't think it's really "playing a game" though, it's more just keeping your hands busy.

[Metalhead33]

Grinding is fine in an action-RPG, like the Elder Scrolls games.
In anything else, grinding is the bane of my existence.

[WhiteShark]

I don't like grinding. I sometimes do it anyway for completionist reasons, but I'll use speedhack or emulation speed unlock to get it over with quickly. I don't even really like the possibility of grinding. If grinding to the level cap is an option, it means the RPG doesn't simulate time in any meaningful capacity, and I view that as a significant flaw in a serious RPG.

[Irenaeus]

I'm not a fan of grinding, but, like others said, if the combat is fun and the grinding sufficiently diverse, it can be ok. Like some other guy said, 5-10 minutes of grinding here and there can help pad and flesh out a game (if the combat is fun!!) and be ok. On the other hand, if a game has obligatory hours of grinding, like Rusty said, I hate it, and, like other dude said, I'll probably won't do it. Japanese games are more guilty of this than western games, but even old Wizardry games had a lot of grinding. However, the combat was fun and the logistics of conserving hitpoints and other resources can be rewarding in itself.

[1998]

I'm not a fan of grinding, but, like others said, if the combat is fun and the grinding sufficiently diverse, it can be ok. Like some other guy said, 5-10 minutes of grinding here and there can help pad and flesh out a game (if the combat is fun!!) and be ok. On the other hand, if a game has obligatory hours of grinding, like Rusty said, I hate it, and, like other dude said, I'll probably won't do it. Japanese games are more guilty of this than western games, but even old Wizardry games had a lot of grinding. However, the combat was fun and the logistics of conserving hitpoints and other resources can be rewarding in itself.

Pretty much the same. In Crown Wars you could pretty much progress very easily through the first half of the missions. Then came a boss who was clearly designed to force you to grind all those proc gen missions, you had to do that for idk maybe an hour at least. That just sucked. If it's just clearing a map properly it's all good. But don't make it part of your core design.

[bloodedhunter]

If I can make my own loot in less time than it takes to level up, then you have ****** up and need to tone down the grind several notches.