Let's discuss magic in RPGs

[rusty_shackleford]

I'll start by mentioning Tyranny for its spell creation:

I liked this system a lot and was disappointed when deadfire returned to (basically) the same system as pillows.

However, all(iirc) the magic spells were limited to combat. Very few or no spells were useful outside of combat. Pillows of eternity had a similar issue, the spells were created entirely for combat as if mages did nothing else and magic was never used for anything but killing each other.

[wndrbr]

However, all(iirc) the magic spells were limited to combat. Very few or no spells were useful outside of combat. Pillows of eternity had a similar issue, the spells were created entirely for combat as if mages did nothing else and magic was never used for anything but killing each other.

in case of ****** and PoE it was probably difficult to implement non-combat/utility magic from the technical standpoint, since pre-rendered backgrounds made it impossible to make environment interactable. DOS is fully 3D and has a lot of ultima-like emergent systems, but it also barely uses its magic when outside of combat.

I find it annoying how usually "light", "fire arrow" and "fireball" are all implemented as separate spells, when it would've made more sense to have one fire-related spell that can be adjusted during casting. If the magic was real, people would be using it for various mundane tasks, like starting campfires and lighting torches, or keeping food frozen so it wouldn't spoil.

[Klerik]

I like Underrail's magic system.

It would be cool if Underrail's combat was more like Fallout Tactics.


I also like Master of Magic. That game is like 30 years old.

[Emphyrio]

i hate when you have heal powers that only work during combat

[Lich]

For a magic spell to feel magical and mysterious and not merely an analogue of popular representations of modern weapons with cosmetic differences, you need to be able to use it for both benevolent and malevolent purposes.

[Acrux]

What games have good non-combat magic that isn't just enhancing a character's bonus temporarily?

[Gregz]

[Humbaba]

If Tyranny was just act 1 it'd be remembered as one of the modern greats, instead it's just anudda Obsidian dud. Sad!

Anyway, gotta mention Steve Jackson's Sorcery, that game is built around non-combat use of magic.

[rusty_shackleford]

Hope they get around to releasing the second half of Tyranny at some point, decent early access title.

What games have good non-combat magic that isn't just enhancing a character's bonus temporarily?

Larian games. BG3's EA even has an entire encounter that is about rescuing people from a burning inn that's falling apart. Because you can toggle turn-based on/off whenever, you can use turn-based for the entire encounter.

[rusty_shackleford]

If the magic was real, people would be using it for various mundane tasks, like starting campfires and lighting torches, or keeping food frozen so it wouldn't spoil.

This is my main issue with how magic is designed in the pillows games. I'll give Tyranny a pass because it has a cool magic creation system and was a side game. All of the magic in pillows is designed from the standpoint of combat, when a lot of combat spells should be repurposed spells used for everyday life. Sort of like how many weapons are repurposed farm tools.

Pillows even has less than the IE games which had charm, invisibility, etc.,

[Humbaba]

Hope they get around to releasing the second half of Tyranny at some point, decent early access title.

I would've even replayed Tyranny if the ending didn't suck that hard and the combat wasn't sorta boring and the dungeons were less terrible and the companions were less generic and those little anime reaction pictures were gone and if act 2 didn't just turn you into a bog standard errand boy and the factions were more interesting and you did a lot more judging work. Other than that, great game, would play again.

/video essay WHY TYRANNY IS A FLAWED MASTERPIECE

[Emphyrio]

Hope they get around to releasing the second half of Tyranny at some point, decent early access title.

I would've even replayed Tyranny if the ending didn't suck that hard and the combat wasn't sorta boring and the dungeons were less terrible and the companions were less generic and those little anime reaction pictures were gone and if act 2 didn't just turn you into a bog standard errand boy and the factions were more interesting and you did a lot more judging work. Other than that, great game, would play again.

/video essay WHY TYRANNY IS A FLAWED MASTERPIECE

how are the companions generic?

[Humbaba]

-Quirky old sage (Gandalf)
-Strong tomboy
-Lawful stupid warrior type (he shat himself)
-Apparently a cute loli but I somehow missed her, I bet she's annoying
-A werewolf (just that talking Deathclaw from Fallout 2)

Snore.

[rusty_shackleford]

-Strong tomboy

nice

[The_Mask]

The fun thing with Tyranny magic is that when you modify a spell, you're more likely to modify it to affect as many targets as possible, as often as possible. Literally "DPS", right?

Turns out that if that's also the way you get EXP... you end up with mages being far better than say... an unarmed fighter type.

Not being salty, just saying that it was really smooth the way made magic be the OP option.

[Lhynn]

I remember having a lot of fun with Spiderwebs exile magic. A lot of spells, half of them useless, a quarter of them only useful in very specific places and circumstances (Combat and non combat alike) and like 10 spells that are absolutely solid. I did like that there were bad spells, you had to experiment with the spells to see what worked and where, and getting intimate with an rpg system is like half the fun of engaging with one.

Two worlds II with its card based magic system was very interesting to explore, a lot of possibilities there.

Morrowind is a classical example of a fun magic system with a lot of possibilities.

Fictorum is quite possibly the best example of overpowered magic at the tip of your fingers, you feel so powerful fighting entire settlements with your spells modified by runes. Can wreak absolute havoc.

[Tweed]

I like Elder Scrolls magic because it lets you fill the role of ten other classes like any true wizard should. Fly, pick locks, blow **** up, light dungeons, make people like you, make people attack you for no reason so you can murder them, carry more crap, heal wounds, etc etc.
And you can make your own versions of spells.

[J1M]

What games have good non-combat magic that isn't just enhancing a character's bonus temporarily?

I want to say Lufia 2, but it has been a while so if that's wrong you could look at the first Golden Sun as a game that uses spells as the solution to environmental barriers. (Freeze a river to cross it, push a rock, cut down a tree.) Overall Lufia 2 is a superior game.

[rusty_shackleford]

To some extent, Tyranny manages to dodge the "why is magic created solely for combat?" question I always have because who knows who made the magic. You're just mixing ancient runes together.
Pillows of eternity completely fails this by being designed for combat ground up.

[WaterMage]

Magic has no "right answer", depends a lot on the setting/game. For example, being a high(lets say 13th) level magic user in Netherese should be a cakewalk compared to be a high level magic user in Athas. As in Athas :

• Need to disguise his spells as psionics as casters are hated there, so no flashy spells like fireball
• A single spell scroll is incredible rare and contrary to 3.5e, casters can't learn spells by leveling up, they need to find scrolls, a lv 13 preserver would be very lucky to have ONE tier 5/6 spell in his spellbook.
• Reagents for spells also incredible rare
• Preparing spells and gathering energy to prepare spells is not easy. Some classes like Shadow Wizards can die while preparing spells
  (...)

What games have good non-combat magic that isn't just enhancing a character's bonus temporarily?

Arcanum. You can use necromancy to talk with deceased NPCs, can use disintegrate to remove fortified doors and other objects from your way, can teleport, can charm people, etc.

[Norfleet]

To some extent, Tyranny manages to dodge the "why is magic created solely for combat?" question I always have because who knows who made the magic. You're just mixing ancient runes together.
Pillows of eternity completely fails this by being designed for combat ground up.

Magic is created solely for combat because the game is pretty much just a vehicle to steer you from one combat to another, with any non-combat situations being resolved by some kind of skill check or puzzle. If magic plays any role in this, it will be strictly as an optional gimmick since the puzzle is necessarily designed to be solved without magic as the player cannot be counted on to have magic. The only time magic has extensive freeform non-combat utility is in some kind of sandbox game where the purpose of the game is not narrowly defined. Otherwise, it's going to be confined to combat, gimmicks, and sequence-breaking.

[ArcaneLurker]

Something from DA:O that I liked.

[Yankee Zulu]

afaik in pillars they were certain interactive scenes where you could use a speciic spell to do this or that. But those were very rare.
Ultimately it all comes down to the basic game design concepts. If you want magic to be usable outside of combat how are you going to deal with non magic users in your party?

[fkirenicus]

Might & Magic IX ? Requires one to learn different skills to certain levels in order to be able to learn the spells. A bit of a "jigsaw puzzle" to get the necessary combinations right, which required one to really think a character in that game through from the beginning.



Also, I really like the specialty magics of the 1st DA (and only that). I like all 3: blood magic, spirit healer, and shapehifter. Why? Because one did not have to be an elemental mage in DA:O. In the later installments that pretty much the range options you got: would you be a fire mage, a frost mage or a lightning mage? Boring.

And the simplest of them: (A)D&D. A lot of the spells will be combat-oriented in some way at least, they might, e.g., add bonuses to skills or abilities in some way (which of course can be beneficial also in outside of combat). Having returned to D&D I think perhaps that system still is what works best -both regarding how spells are learned (or created) and memorized, as well as how they function in-game (and not only in combat necessarily).

[Norfleet]

Arcanum. You can use necromancy to talk with deceased NPCs, can use disintegrate to remove fortified doors and other objects from your way, can teleport, can charm people, etc.

So, gimmicks and sequence breaking. If I talk to a decreased NPC, I won't accomplish anything except what the developers intended for me to accomplish. If I teleport or disintegrate something unexpectedly, I just sequence break, getting into something before it was intended, and likely exposing holes in the game. Interesting magic only exists in sandbox play where I define my own objectives, rather than being led by the nose along some plot sequence that I am otherwise required to resolve to experience the conclusion of the sequence, if not the entire game.

[Element]

Magic should be deeply integrated with other systems in the game. An ice spell should be able to freeze a lock on a door, frost a pane of glass to make your passage unnoticed, put out a fire, coagulate a path across a water barrier, form a slippery glob on the ground for enemies to slip (like in Dark Messiah), prevent food from spoiling, make enemy weapons more brittle, deal damage directly, and so on.

[Xenich]

Magic should be deeply integrated with other systems in the game. An ice spell should be able to freeze a lock on a door, frost a pane of glass to make your passage unnoticed, put out a fire, coagulate a path across a water barrier, form a slippery glob on the ground for enemies to slip (like in Dark Messiah), prevent food from spoiling, make enemy weapons more brittle, deal damage directly, and so on.

I think this is what limited the true intent behind a Wizard (AD&D specifically) in computer gaming over the years. You had a slew of spells, and many seemed rather benign, or limited, but the reality is that they were extremely powerful for those who thought past simple combat application.

I think that is what many CRPGs failed to translate from those systems and opted for narrow combat style play.

Granted that focus was partly due to players who could only see through the combat lense and measured everything accordingly, but it would have been nice to see the opposite direction in such development evolve into complex interactive solution systems using magic as you describe.

Instead we got every class with different names and animations for their functions that are essentially the same thing. Innovation and progress!

[ERYFKRAD]

What games have good non-combat magic that isn't just enhancing a character's bonus temporarily?

Gothic, funnily enough.

[rusty_shackleford]

I'll start by mentioning Tyranny for its spell creation:

I liked this system a lot and was disappointed when deadfire returned to (basically) the same system as pillows.

However, all(iirc) the magic spells were limited to combat. Very few or no spells were useful outside of combat. Pillows of eternity had a similar issue, the spells were created entirely for combat as if mages did nothing else and magic was never used for anything but killing each other.

It seems that Pathfinder had a similar system in one of its supplements. I don't know if it was based on existing material or not.
https://aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=1016

[UltraFan123]

Another good alternate spell system of Pathfinder 1e was the 3rd party "Spheres of Power" system which I think made a good job at reworking the mages to still be very powerful but not that powerful as they are in 3.5 d20srd.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant- ... -of-power/