Biosidian's journey with camera and controls

[Eyestabber]

It all starts with the infinity engine games. We had a fixed camera angle and RTS-style control of party members. Players were in full control of their party and all was well in the world. Then Neverwinter Nights came and disappointed everyone (my young self included) by being a piece of **** game that decided D&D is actually a solo game despite every class being designed to work in a party. Granted whoever decided NWN 1 should have no party deserves to be raped with a rake, BUT this thread is about camera and controls. That game introduced the "one guy leads, the others follow" system that started out incredibly bad, being dependent on voice commands to even think about working. This system has always been notoriously laggy and is the main reason as to why NWN 2 is such a broken mess.

The KOTOR games featured a similar system, but since the combat was so simplistic it didn't hurt them as badly as it did NWN. DAO (which I'm currently replaying) was when Bioware partially came to their senses and reintroduced "select all party" to work alongside the leader/follower system. It still has camera and control issues, but they are not even remotely as bad as NWN 2. Couple more years down the road and Pillars of Eternity, despite being a slop mediocre game, finally put an end to the wretched camera experiment. I guess the question is why, but I think I know why: console animals and 3D experimentation. Interestingly enough, NWN 1's most popular mod "The Witcher 1" doesn't suffer from these issues due to being a single character game. In short, gaming was better when it was 2D and PC-exclusive.

[rusty_shackleford]

I play DAO with WASD like a third person game, I rarely ever control other characters.

[Valter]

I play DAO with WASD like a third person game, I rarely ever control other characters.

Or even better, control camera with RMB and move forward with LMB. I do this a lot in towns where there's little combat. Giga casual immersion+++

[rusty_shackleford]

I play DAO with WASD like a third person game, I rarely ever control other characters.

Or even better, control camera with RMB and move forward with LMB. I do this a lot in towns where there's little combat. Giga casual immersion+++

The game was meant to be controlled with WoW-style camera, yes. Trying to play it like IE is just not understanding the 'intended' way to play it. WoW was the only successful PC exclusive game that existed when DAO was in development, WoW's influence on DAO is incredibly heavy, down to the controls.

Which makes this part ironic:

In short, gaming was better when it was 2D and PC-exclusive.

[Roguey]

It all starts with the infinity engine games. We had a fixed camera angle and RTS-style control of party members. Players were in full control of their party and all was well in the world. Then Neverwinter Nights came and disappointed everyone (my young self included) by being a piece of **** game that decided D&D is actually a solo game despite every class being designed to work in a party.

NWN was intended as a True Dungeons and Dragons Experience where you play as a single character in a cooperating group, sometimes with a human Dungeon Master.

The KOTOR games featured a similar system, but since the combat was so simplistic it didn't hurt them as badly as it did NWN. DAO (which I'm currently replaying) was when Bioware partially came to their senses and reintroduced "select all party" to work alongside the leader/follower system. It still has camera and control issues, but they are not even remotely as bad as NWN 2.

Console game/controls versus PC game/controls. NWN2 may have been PC-only (though they intended an xbox port that didn't work out), but it was a mess because they were trying to make a party-based game out of something intended for single-characters and one to two bots plus all your online friends.

The ability to micromanage your team in DA:O came about because they still had a few grognards on the team, but those guys ultimately lost the battle to "the AI should handle the companions" group for the sequels.

Couple more years down the road and Pillars of Eternity, despite being a slop mediocre game, finally put an end to the wretched camera experiment. I guess the question is why, but I think I know why: console animals and 3D experimentation. Interestingly enough, NWN 1's most popular mod "The Witcher 1" doesn't suffer from these issues due to being a single character game. In short, gaming was better when it was 2D and PC-exclusive.

PoE was intended as a nostalgic throwback to the Infinity Engine games. Josh Sawyer says that if they were to ever make another one, they'd give up on pre-rendered backgrounds, being more trouble than he believes they're worth, but would still use a fixed camera because he hates fiddling with them too.

A lot of people do want and demand full 3D graphics with a rotating camera. For party-based games I believe levels should be designed with one view in mind and you should be given some rotation options to handle the edge cases.

[rusty_shackleford]

Fixed camera kills exploration, used to like it more but now I'm not much of a fan.
Could be partially worked around with direct character controls requiring you to still explore the environment, but combined with point and click, meh.

[Oyster Sauce]

Fixed camera kills exploration, used to like it more but now I'm not much of a fan.
Could be partially worked around with direct character controls requiring you to still explore the environment, but combined with point and click, meh.

How'd you like the demon city in WOTR where everything changes based on the camera rotation?

[rusty_shackleford]

Fixed camera kills exploration, used to like it more but now I'm not much of a fan.
Could be partially worked around with direct character controls requiring you to still explore the environment, but combined with point and click, meh.

How'd you like the demon city in WOTR where everything changes based on the camera rotation?

What made you think I played WotR past the first act?

[rusty_shackleford]

I play DAO with WASD like a third person game, I rarely ever control other characters.

BG3 is much better with the wasd+third person camera mods too.
Click to move and birds eye view don't belong in RPGs imo2bh, bioware brought it over from rts and it was a mistake.

[Eyestabber]

So not console animals but MMO animals, got it.

[Valter]

The ability to micromanage your team in DA:O came about because they still had a few grognards on the team, but those guys ultimately lost the battle to "the AI should handle the companions" group for the sequels.

Not confident about Veilguard, but you could still pause and issue commands to your party members in DA2 and Inquisition. I always appreciated that aspect remaining intact despite the franchise's deterioration in several other aspects.

[Roguey]

The ability to micromanage your team in DA:O came about because they still had a few grognards on the team, but those guys ultimately lost the battle to "the AI should handle the companions" group for the sequels.

Not confident about Veilguard, but you could still pause and issue commands to your party members in DA2 and Inquisition. I always appreciated that aspect remaining intact despite the franchise's deterioration in several other aspects.

I was a heavy micromanager with DA:O, but it's a genuinely aggravating experience to try to play that way in DA2/I. It's a phoned-in, box-ticking feature for the oldies in the audience.