What separates generic boring lore from interesting lore?

[Tweed]

"Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important." - John Carmack

"Players will forgive your game for having a story as long as you allow them to ignore it." - Vogel's 2nd Law of Video Game Storytelling

People still talk about Morrowind's world building and people still praise MCA for for his work in Planescape: Torment. Betrayal at Krondor is the ultimate storyfag game and Arcanum puts most other game's worlds to shame. Sawyer tried to bury people in stacks of exposition, but Pillow's world is uninteresting and nihilistic. The big reveal near the end lands like a spitwad. The truth being that most games' stories are a wet fart and exist to move the action along. What makes memorable lore and memorable stories stand out from generic slop?

[Oyster Sauce]

Games I played as a kid vs games I played as an adult.

[Tweed]

Games I played as a kid vs games I played as an adult.

But I only played Arcanum last year.

[rusty_shackleford]

Pillows contains too much collective author moralizing. I could feel the redditor breaking the fourth wall when the NPC near the end was sperging out over how the gods weren't "real". Soyer went to college for religion iirc so it's actually a bit strange he allowed that to go into the game, surely he's familiar with the idea of apotheosis?

[Atlantico]

Soyer went to college for religion

@Roguey is this true?

[rusty_shackleford]

Additionally, overthinking is probably a pretty big issue now. If it sounds cool it's ok to include it you don't need to do 500 refinement iterations. I'm guessing this is why games on tight deadlines might have better writing, it's just much more raw.

[Roguey]

Soyer went to college for religion

@Roguey is this true?

https://catholicgamereviews.com/intervi ... sh-sawyer/

You have a degree in history with a focus on the Holy Roman Empire. Why did you study that era of history in particular?

I’d always been interested in European history. Initially it was medieval or late medieval, and then in college I started getting interested more in early modern history. So the transition between the medieval period & the modern period (or what we understand as the modern period). Transitional periods in history in general are just interesting to me. There’s a lot of change going on, and with that there’s a lot of people fighting against the change. Initially I thought I might study Reconquista Spain. I don’t know really what changed, but my focus shifted north and went into Germany, the Holy Roman Empire, as we now know it.

I have some family connections to Germany and Austria, [as well as interest in] language & music. I initially went to school for music. So doing something in a German-speaking area seemed appropriate and I just had other pre-existing interests in that region. All those things kind of just came together. So I have a little bit of English history and a little bit of Reconquista era and a little bit of Renaissance Italy. But most of my studies were focused on the early modern Holy Roman Empire.



What belief system were you raised in, and how would you describe your faith journey? I know you just said you don’t believe in any God, but based on things you’ve said before I believe you’d acknowledge there is a spiritual dimension to people.

I was raised in a household where both of my parents had been raised in different religious traditions. My father was raised Catholic and my mother was raised Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran. (Actually, I might be wrong on that, but she was raised Lutheran.) Without revealing too much about my dad’s own personal life, he did not have a good experience with the Catholic Church. In fact, it was quite negative. And because of that, he really did not want to make me go to church. And so I was raised in a household that was not…well, my dad was kind of antagonistic towards religious organizations. But not hostile towards religion in general. Still, I didn’t go to church growing up. I grew up in rural Wisconsin and so I knew a lot of Protestants, but I also knew a fair number of Catholics. It wasn’t an extreme minority, so I knew many religious people around me. Mostly Lutheran or Catholic, very few non-Christian traditions overall.

I would say that I thought about it in the way that a kid might – it wasn’t like I had super advanced thoughts or anything. And then over time, I started reading more about Christianity and learning more about it in the context of history. And I remember thinking more about where I stood on agnosticism and atheism in college. I found that there were a lot of discussions that felt very fruitless because they became sort of arguments about definitions, which I don’t really find that useful. And so what I came away with was: I don’t believe that there are any identifiable higher powers.

And more importantly, I live my life as though there is no one sort of above, presciently seeing what I’m doing and judging me based on it. There’s a lot of ways you could put a label on that, but that’s pretty much what it comes down to. I don’t think it really changed much about how I live my life, although I do think that thinking through that changed how I interacted with people identifying by faith (or lack thereof). It just simplified and clarified where I stand on things. I do think that my viewpoint is as much of an act of faith as anybody else’s. Really, I don’t think like I have some special insight or anything. This is just the conclusion that I’ve come to in my life to this point.

[Tweed]

Exactly. A revelation only matters if it changes the consequences.

EDIT: Soyer was raised a mormon so he probably knows about as much of Christianity as your average evangelical.

[Sinfield]

"Story in a game is like a story in a porn movie. It's expected to be there, but it's not that important." - John Carmack

"Players will forgive your game for having a story as long as you allow them to ignore it." - Vogel's 2nd Law of Video Game Storytelling

Kneejerk reaction to videogames having bad stories
Prove me wrong

[Tweed]

I have a theory that the general expectation was that we as the player were supposed to be personally offended that the gods were fake and gay. I think the target audience for PoE was actually r/atheism.

[rusty_shackleford]

that the gods were fake and gay.

But they weren't, that's the thing.

[Tweed]

that the gods were fake and gay.

But they weren't, that's the thing.

I know, but I'm saying you were supposed to be incensed by this and take action instead of shrugging indifferently and getting the game over with.

[Mortadela_Viva]

that the gods were fake and gay.

But they weren't, that's the thing.

They were created by the powa of science, the only true god in the mind of the writers.

[rusty_shackleford]

that the gods were fake and gay.

But they weren't, that's the thing.

They were created by the powa of science, the only true god in the mind of the writers.

The power they used presumably was put there by even higher powers.
Rymrgand is also a preexisting divine power that treated the other gods as equals, fwiw.

[J1M]

First, the setting of a game has to establish something you want to spend more time with. If that is in place, then learning more about the lore is a reward. If it isn't then any exposition feels like being forcibly confined.

Second, an appropriate balance between the familiar and exotic needs to be struck. Too familiar and it feels like a generic knock-off. Too exotic and it will be perceived as cringe due to the effort required to parse.

Third, there needs to be an entry point. That can be a relatable character (Jim Raynor), a basic plot (John Wick), or familiar era (current year). If you want a mainstream audience you can't start with the exotic elements. If you want the enthusiast audience you can't wait too long to introduce them.

Fourth, you can't fully explain everything. When you draw a circle around the edges of the lore, it kills anticipation and speculation. Prequels and side stories are inherently less interesting (even for Star Wars and 40K).

[Fitz]

Don't think there's a formula to it. Pacing definitely plays a big part in how a story works tho. You can't show me a Beholder 5 minutes into the game and then expect me to get excited when you show me a dragon 10 minutes later. I mean, I guess you can but I'm not a kid anymore I don't get excited when people throw the shiniest thing they've got in their arsenal on every turn. And at this point I might not have seen it all, but I've seen most of it. The story/lore also loses part of its spice when it's only there to serve the player. What I mean by this is that if the players avatar is overpowered from minute 1 and there is no struggle at all - I simply don't care at all about the world I'm in because it's just there waiting for me to destroy it. The world turns into a rollercoaster that's there just to run its course and not actually a world I can immerse myself in.

Truth be told the most essential thing in telling a proper story when it comes to video games is that it's properly tied with the difficulty and the urgency the player feels while going through the campaign. And I don't mean tying that to a timer or some stupid black and white **** like that. I mean raising the stakes, betraying the player - make the whole thing feel personal, have somebody for the player to hate and want to punch in the face, add some philosophies that apply to the real world, make it fantasy but relatable at the same time. Idk it really doesn't sound that hard. Myb it is and I just don't see it.

[Vaako]

I usually enjoy exploring lore/world building if there are ancient civilizations which have died out centuries ago (or only still exist hidden somewhere) or when the current regimes have tried to rewrite history to look good. Preferable if these ancient civilizations were more advanced than the current one.

examples which come to my mind are: shin sekai yori, horizon zero dawn datapoints and release the witch. Guess Arcanum is also a good example from what I have seen in videos.

[maidenhaver]

"Tell God's story, then tell the farmer's story, then listen to what the dog has to say."

[Rand]

"Tell God's story, then tell the farmer's story, then listen to what the dog has to say."

Then take your pills, because that was all schizophrenia all the time.

[loregamer]

Depends if I've had caffeine yet

[Fitz]

Guys, the pillars 1 ending made no sense. Iovara is a dumb ***** and got it wrong. Nothing she says makes any sense from the perspective of the player. Soyer and the whole team dropped the ball by not letting the player call her out on her lies.

What she says makes no sense at all. I don't know why people take her word when the ***** is clearly crazy.

[rusty_shackleford]

Guys, the pillars 1 ending made no sense. Iovara is a dumb ***** and got it wrong. Nothing she says makes any sense from the perspective of the player. Soyer and the whole team dropped the ball by not letting the player call her out on her lies.

What she says makes no sense at all. I don't know why people take her word when the ***** is clearly crazy.

Because she's clearly the writer's mouthpiece.

[Tweed]

Guys, the pillars 1 ending made no sense. Iovara is a dumb ***** and got it wrong. Nothing she says makes any sense from the perspective of the player. Soyer and the whole team dropped the ball by not letting the player call her out on her lies.

What she says makes no sense at all. I don't know why people take her word when the ***** is clearly crazy.

We basically said that. Nothing she said matters, the gods do everything you'd expect a god to do and there's absolutely nothing you can do to dispute it. They're gods. The revelation means nothing and is entirely pointless.

[Stack of Turtles]

I have a theory that the general expectation was that we as the player were supposed to be personally offended that the gods were fake and gay. I think the target audience for PoE was actually r/atheism.

But if the gods are just some guy who became a god – which is what I'm getting out of your description, I never played the game – then isn't that a good thing since it means that it's possible for me to replace them if I think I can do a better job? Why would anyone be offended about that? Even Philip Pullman had enough sense to realize there was no reason for anyone to hate his fake usurper-god, so he made him a figure of pity instead.

[Acrux]

I have a theory that the general expectation was that we as the player were supposed to be personally offended that the gods were fake and gay. I think the target audience for PoE was actually r/atheism.

But if the gods are just some guy who became a god – which is what I'm getting out of your description, I never played the game – then isn't that a good thing since it means that it's possible for me to replace them if I think I can do a better job? Why would anyone be offended about that? Even Philip Pullman had enough sense to realize there was no reason for anyone to hate his fake usurper-god, so he made him a figure of pity instead.

It's not exactly that. They are 'ideals" that an ancient group created to become gods when they found out the gods aren't real. A guy trying to do what you suggest is the catalyst for the game.

[maidenhaver]

"Tell God's story, then tell the farmer's story, then listen to what the dog has to say."

Then take your pills, because that was all schizophrenia all the time.

All of it was completely sane and made sense, except to dudebros, contrarians, and *******.

[Stack of Turtles]

I have a theory that the general expectation was that we as the player were supposed to be personally offended that the gods were fake and gay. I think the target audience for PoE was actually r/atheism.

But if the gods are just some guy who became a god – which is what I'm getting out of your description, I never played the game – then isn't that a good thing since it means that it's possible for me to replace them if I think I can do a better job? Why would anyone be offended about that? Even Philip Pullman had enough sense to realize there was no reason for anyone to hate his fake usurper-god, so he made him a figure of pity instead.

It's not exactly that. They are 'ideals" that an ancient group created to become gods when they found out the gods aren't real. A guy trying to do what you suggest is the catalyst for the game.

Still the same in that there's no logical reason to be mad at them for it.

[Fitz]

Guys, the pillars 1 ending made no sense. Iovara is a dumb ***** and got it wrong. Nothing she says makes any sense from the perspective of the player. Soyer and the whole team dropped the ball by not letting the player call her out on her lies.

What she says makes no sense at all. I don't know why people take her word when the ***** is clearly crazy.

Because she's clearly the writer's mouthpiece.

That doesn't give her any authority or credibility in this case. Especially given how Pillars 2 begins. She's just some dead *****. The only thing that's special about her is that she shows up right before fighting Thaos.
The whole creative process in PoE collapsed on itself in Act 3. Idk what happened behind the scenes, but if something is so badly written that it makes no sense I can't just ignore it because it comes from somebodies' mouthpiece.

[Fitz]

But if the gods are just some guy who became a god – which is what I'm getting out of your description, I never played the game – then isn't that a good thing since it means that it's possible for me to replace them if I think I can do a better job? Why would anyone be offended about that? Even Philip Pullman had enough sense to realize there was no reason for anyone to hate his fake usurper-god, so he made him a figure of pity instead.

It's not exactly that. They are 'ideals" that an ancient group created to become gods when they found out the gods aren't real. A guy trying to do what you suggest is the catalyst for the game.

Still the same in that there's no logical reason to be mad at them for it.

They fueled up said pantheon with their own souls, which in my opinion already makes them beings ascending humanity and reaching divine status. The conflict comes from Thaos who steals the souls of newborns and further fuels Woedica - the goddess of Justice and thus disrupting the balance in process. If I recall correctly most of the people in PoE1 don't even remember the existence of the people that fueled said pantheon.

[J1M]

I can't discuss Pillars of Eternity lore because I retained nothing from the game due to its poor storytelling.

Pillars facts in my brain: it had a chanter and psionic class, stat changes were a failed experiment, companions were left at base camp, and clearing out the maps like a pseudo-RTS was fun at first.