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Indie "roguelite" meta progressions need to chill

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Eyestabber
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Indie "roguelite" meta progressions need to chill

Post by Eyestabber »

Recently came across "The King is Watching", a very fun indie city manager/auto battler. Would be a solid 9/10 if it didn't have the WORST meta progression system I have ever seen so far. Now, indie meta progression systems have become a staple and while I don't automatically hate the system, I feel like it's worth discussing its intricacies. The best system I've seen is that of Slay the Spire, where no power is ever given via meta progression and the system merely works as a way to teach you the game. The first character you get to play is also the simplest one, while the last is the most gimmicky. New cards and relics are also unlocked via score, yet none of it can be construed as unlocking extra power. That is what a good system looks like. By contrast, many newer indie games make you play your first run with no arms and legs and grind to unlock your various limbs. After 40 hours or so you finally get to play a game with a full body. Needless to say, I'm likely to hit the refund button much sooner than that.

So here's what I LIKE as a meta progression:
  • Complexity: you start with the most straightforward options and later unlock more complex tools. In Against the Storm, for instance, you start the game with buildings that have one, two inputs at most and later on you unlock more complex production chains. In Diceomancer (another game with gr8 progression) you start with the most basic class and later unlock more complex play styles.
  • Story reasoning: in StS there's an in-game justification for the meta progression, same with Tainted Grail: Conquest. Very, VERY few indie games do this, but it's nice when it happens.
I'm INDIFFERENT towards:
  • Alternative tools: in some games you unlock alternative loadouts or skills via some meta currency. For example, in Mechabellum every unit has 3 technologies that are selected before the game starts. Meta currency is used for purchasing alternative techs, though for most units the basic loadout is either optimal or "good enough". In FTL you unlock new ships and in most roguelikes you can unlock a character or class after a bit of grinding. If the grind isn't too terrible then I think it's fine, sure, add a sense of progression to the game. Whatever.
  • Ascension: a bit of a different topic, but almost all roguelites have an ascension mechanic, meaning difficulty levels that stack penalties atop each other. While I like more challenge for the hardcore player, I must point out that ascensions ALWAYS make you go from "huh, such a fun little indie gem" to "**** THIS ****, RNG ****** ME IN THE *** AGAIN!!!" very quickly. More importantly, in every high ascension the pool of viable strategies tends to shrink and the player ends up forced to play one of the few "meta" strategies. It was a nice sense of achievement to beat ASC 10 on Trials of Fire, but realizing some of the really FUN characters are simply unplayable at that level left a bad taste in my mouth. In a perfect world all viable strategies would scale equally.
This is *** CANCER and should die in a fire:
  • POWER: if I open a meta tree and see "+X% damage/health" then you can bet your *** I'm going to cheat. If I can't cheat the tree then I'm refunding the game. There is ZERO justifiable reason for making the player more powerful in between runs. Zero. If you think otherwise then you're ******* ********. It should also be noted that many games offer things like RNG-mitigation ("the first reroll is free"), run start bonuses etc. All these perks fall in the "power" category and shouldn't be included in the game.
  • Essential options: Sometimes the game will try to convince you the meta unlock is just an "alternative", but it clearly isn't. In TKiW for instance you have a ton of advisors and advisor slots. While the advisors themselves could be classified under "alternative", that's simply not true since the game itself knows some advisors are better, being more expensive, harder to reach or both. Other games lock BASIC functions behind a ****** progression.
Last edited by Eyestabber on August 1st, 2025, 21:41, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Norfleet »

Eyestabber wrote: August 1st, 2025, 20:21
This is *** CANCER and should die in a fire:
  • POWER: if I open a meta tree and see "+X% damage/health" then you can bet your *** I'm going to cheat.
Honestly, this sort of power boosting tends to be ****** design in general, regardless of where it's being applied. Applied globally, it amounts to playing the game at a penalty until you get it. Applied to specific subsets of the game, it effectively means that subset of the game is penalized without it and you shouldn't bother with it unless you have this unlocked. In skills, for instance, it undermines the value of even having those other skills, if you force the player to then hard commit to that particular skill and thus never change it because everything else will be operating at a penalty that most likely exceeds any situational benefit. If I cause half damage to skellingtons with stabbing weapons, but I have skills gives me +400% damage with swords, I am not going to swap my sword for a mace anyway, so the entire affinity system is basically invalidated by the existence of this skilltree design.