Armor types are a failed RPG concept

[Brother Michael]

quick gewgle suggests top-tier defensive fighters in MMA sit around a 60-65% avoidance rate, being a bit faster in your reflexes seems more likely than just magicking some lightning

Dodging a sword blow is significantly harder. And getting hit once is enough if you don’t have any armor.

And I'm saying we can breed(incl. genetic engineering) someone to have superhuman reflexes right now, but we can't breed someone to call down lightning bolts from the sky on demand(which would require external devices)

Why wouldn’t you still put him in plate armor?

[rusty_shackleford]

Dodging a sword blow is significantly harder. And getting hit once is enough if you don’t have any armor.

And I'm saying we can breed(incl. genetic engineering) someone to have superhuman reflexes right now, but we can't breed someone to call down lightning bolts from the sky on demand(which would require external devices)

Why wouldn’t you still put him in plate armor?

Because then he can't pick locks due to his fingers being constrained by the gauntlets

[Oyster Sauce]

Dodging a sword blow is significantly harder. And getting hit once is enough if you don’t have any armor.

And I'm saying we can breed(incl. genetic engineering) someone to have superhuman reflexes right now, but we can't breed someone to call down lightning bolts from the sky on demand(which would require external devices)

Why wouldn’t you still put him in plate armor?

It severely restricts his amazing natural talents and doesn't make him impervious to getting whacked to death

[Eyestabber]

Superb thread. I think it's time for RPGs to come to terms with the fact that the evasive ninja-type character always has been ******* ********. As the many HEMA videos online can attest, no, you cannot move your whole body faster than the other guy can move his wrists. Footwork is definitely a thing, but "dodging" isn't. And in order to support the ninja fantasy RPGs add nonsensical limitations to heavy armor, like "oh no, this is so heavy you can't move more than a couple meters without tiring out" and AGAIN, videos on YouTube show people doing the darks souls roll in full plate just fine. Wearing light armor is a "choice" in the same sense that having an old banged up car is a choice. Granted RPGs run on "rule of cool" and the ninja archetype is pervasive on everyone's imagination, but maybe it's time to try something new.

It should also be noted that RPGs were born from strategy games and the balance between light and heavy armor in those is a lot easier: usually you use light armor because you can't afford full plates for all your units. But in RPGs where you have just one or a handful of characters you will want the best protection money can buy and that is certainly not a pile of old rags. In my own RPG that only exists in my mind I would've used a underlay/overlay system for damage mitigation with regular enemies only having leather or chain mail and knight-type enemies having plate on top. So when you get hit on the plate you benefit from DR from the underlay and DT from the plate. Striking someone in a gap of their armor (like arm pits, crotch, thigh, depending on the armor type) would deny the defender his armor DT. I would make it so that more ironclad armor (meaning armor with fewer gaps) provide minor penalties to offense, like a fully closed helmet making perception worse, armor on the joints limiting movement etc. So the balance would not be light vs heavy armor, it would be heavy vs even heavier armor. I don't think many games appreciate the considerations that went into a renaissance breastplate, for instance. In D&D it's just strictly worse than full plate, BUT in real history it's the armor that eventually replaced it.

Hema is gay and lame with ~zero relation to actual combat.

So you think you can dodge your way out of a sword strike? Kek.

[rusty_shackleford]

Also, plate armor is added weight. As much as people want to post videos of a guy not even in full armor(or the padding beneath it) doing somersaults, you get tired not even wearing any armor when fighting. Look at how winded boxers, MMA fighters, etc., are into matches. Do you think wearing an extra 30lbs across their body would make zero difference?
So if you wanted to do full 'simulationism', have armor add severe fatigue penalties.

Also, don't forget to simulate heat and have him enter a heatstroke because he can't adequately cool down in armor

[Brother Michael]

And I'm saying we can breed(incl. genetic engineering) someone to have superhuman reflexes right now, but we can't breed someone to call down lightning bolts from the sky on demand(which would require external devices)

Why wouldn’t you still put him in plate armor?

Because then he can't pick locks due to his fingers being constrained by the gauntlets

Daggerfall solved this

[rusty_shackleford]

So if you wanted to do full 'simulationism', have armor add severe fatigue penalties.

Thinking on it, other than actual magic, this is probably the most unrealistic aspect of RPG combat — not being able to dodge really well. I can't think of any RPGs that actually try to simulate fatigue as something that wears you down in a fight, sometimes you get an 'energy bar' that just refills after a breath or two.

[Brother Michael]

Also, plate armor is added weight. As much as people want to post videos of a guy not even in full armor(or the padding beneath it) doing somersaults, you get tired not even wearing any armor when fighting. Look at how winded boxers, MMA fighters, etc., are into matches. Do you think wearing an extra 30lbs across their body would make zero difference?
So if you wanted to do full 'simulationism', have armor add severe fatigue penalties.

Also, don't forget to simulate heat and have him enter a heatstroke because he can't adequately cool down in armor

Problem is you already made him a superhuman. If you want to add in those downsides, sure, but we can clearly see historically that the protection vastly outweighed them.

[rusty_shackleford]

Also, plate armor is added weight. As much as people want to post videos of a guy not even in full armor(or the padding beneath it) doing somersaults, you get tired not even wearing any armor when fighting. Look at how winded boxers, MMA fighters, etc., are into matches. Do you think wearing an extra 30lbs across their body would make zero difference?
So if you wanted to do full 'simulationism', have armor add severe fatigue penalties.

Also, don't forget to simulate heat and have him enter a heatstroke because he can't adequately cool down in armor

Problem is you already made him a superhuman. If you want to add in those downsides, sure, but we can clearly see historically that the protection vastly outweighed them.

The superhuman dodge skills go away when he's encumbered by the armor. It says so in the rules.

[Rand]

Plate armor with cloth padding should provide substantial protection against a fireball or lightning bolt compared to a wizard's dress in any attempt at simulation. Plus, they aren't nukes. It takes multiple of them to burn through the hit points of an unarmored level 5 character.

They used to be bombs, originally.
The d6 for their damage was the same as the d6 you rolled for HP, and a "hero" was a (iirc) 5th level fighter.
Note the basic fireball did 5d6 damage. It was extremely likely to seriously harm a hero, and kill them if they were already moderately damaged.

[Oyster Sauce]

Superb thread. I think it's time for RPGs to come to terms with the fact that the evasive ninja-type character always has been ******* ********. As the many HEMA videos online can attest, no, you cannot move your whole body faster than the other guy can move his wrists. Footwork is definitely a thing, but "dodging" isn't. And in order to support the ninja fantasy RPGs add nonsensical limitations to heavy armor, like "oh no, this is so heavy you can't move more than a couple meters without tiring out" and AGAIN, videos on YouTube show people doing the darks souls roll in full plate just fine. Wearing light armor is a "choice" in the same sense that having an old banged up car is a choice. Granted RPGs run on "rule of cool" and the ninja archetype is pervasive on everyone's imagination, but maybe it's time to try something new.

It should also be noted that RPGs were born from strategy games and the balance between light and heavy armor in those is a lot easier: usually you use light armor because you can't afford full plates for all your units. But in RPGs where you have just one or a handful of characters you will want the best protection money can buy and that is certainly not a pile of old rags. In my own RPG that only exists in my mind I would've used a underlay/overlay system for damage mitigation with regular enemies only having leather or chain mail and knight-type enemies having plate on top. So when you get hit on the plate you benefit from DR from the underlay and DT from the plate. Striking someone in a gap of their armor (like arm pits, crotch, thigh, depending on the armor type) would deny the defender his armor DT. I would make it so that more ironclad armor (meaning armor with fewer gaps) provide minor penalties to offense, like a fully closed helmet making perception worse, armor on the joints limiting movement etc. So the balance would not be light vs heavy armor, it would be heavy vs even heavier armor. I don't think many games appreciate the considerations that went into a renaissance breastplate, for instance. In D&D it's just strictly worse than full plate, BUT in real history it's the armor that eventually replaced it.

Hema is gay and lame with ~zero relation to actual combat.

So you think you can dodge your way out of a sword strike? Kek.

First swordfight I pulled up on YouTube had every round decided by a strike to the wrist or face that was 1" away from being safe

[Brother Michael]

So if you wanted to do full 'simulationism', have armor add severe fatigue penalties.

Thinking on it, other than actual magic, this is probably the most unrealistic aspect of RPG combat — not being able to dodge really well. I can't think of any RPGs that actually try to simulate fatigue as something that wears you down in a fight, sometimes you get an 'energy bar' that just refills after a breath or two.

I had this debate with that one unpleasant fella with a Chinese mindset last year. I can dig up the posts, but the point is that even if the fatigue is real, the ability to ignore sharpened steel hitting your face is too powerful to forgo.

[rusty_shackleford]

So if you wanted to do full 'simulationism', have armor add severe fatigue penalties.

Thinking on it, other than actual magic, this is probably the most unrealistic aspect of RPG combat — not being able to dodge really well. I can't think of any RPGs that actually try to simulate fatigue as something that wears you down in a fight, sometimes you get an 'energy bar' that just refills after a breath or two.

I had this debate with that one unpleasant fella with a Chinese mindset last year. I can dig up the posts, but the point is that even if the fatigue is real, the ability to ignore sharpened steel hitting your face is too powerful to forgo.

As I've concluded prior, HP is your luck meter and therefore you aren't actually getting hit until you die

https://rpghq.org/gygax-enworld-qa.html

3) How do you explain hit points, or do you even bother?

3) That's easy. HPs represent not only the physical person, but that one's luck, skill in avoiding damage. As luck runs low, muscles tire, and reflexes slow their measure, HPs. are lost to reflect this. The last few remaining are the actual physical body being harmed. Okay, its rationalizing, but it works pretty well, I think ;-)

It was meant to partially represent a person's luck.

ergo,
vampires drain luck

[Brother Michael]

Also, plate armor is added weight. As much as people want to post videos of a guy not even in full armor(or the padding beneath it) doing somersaults, you get tired not even wearing any armor when fighting. Look at how winded boxers, MMA fighters, etc., are into matches. Do you think wearing an extra 30lbs across their body would make zero difference?
So if you wanted to do full 'simulationism', have armor add severe fatigue penalties.

Also, don't forget to simulate heat and have him enter a heatstroke because he can't adequately cool down in armor

Problem is you already made him a superhuman. If you want to add in those downsides, sure, but we can clearly see historically that the protection vastly outweighed them.

The superhuman dodge skills go away when he's encumbered by the armor. It says so in the rules.

Not in 1E/2E

[Oyster Sauce]

So if you wanted to do full 'simulationism', have armor add severe fatigue penalties.

Thinking on it, other than actual magic, this is probably the most unrealistic aspect of RPG combat — not being able to dodge really well. I can't think of any RPGs that actually try to simulate fatigue as something that wears you down in a fight, sometimes you get an 'energy bar' that just refills after a breath or two.

► Show Spoiler

[rusty_shackleford]

So if you wanted to do full 'simulationism', have armor add severe fatigue penalties.

Thinking on it, other than actual magic, this is probably the most unrealistic aspect of RPG combat — not being able to dodge really well. I can't think of any RPGs that actually try to simulate fatigue as something that wears you down in a fight, sometimes you get an 'energy bar' that just refills after a breath or two.

► Show Spoiler

Just an energy gauge

[Oyster Sauce]

Thinking on it, other than actual magic, this is probably the most unrealistic aspect of RPG combat — not being able to dodge really well. I can't think of any RPGs that actually try to simulate fatigue as something that wears you down in a fight, sometimes you get an 'energy bar' that just refills after a breath or two.

► Show Spoiler

Just an energy gauge

Fatigue plays a part in many actions, so the lower a character's Fatigue gets, the more difficult it becomes to fight, cast spells, or do anything else effectively. A low fatigue will even reduce the height of jumps. Surprisingly, even Mercantile is affected by fatigue. Similarly, with Fatigue raised above the derived total, skills become more effective.

If the maximum fatigue of an NPC is set to a zero or negative value (mainly through Damage Attribute), that NPC will collapse to the ground in the same manner of exhausting their stamina through hand-to-hand combat, until the three-day cycle resets. If this happens to the player (mainly through Reflecting this aggression), it will count as a death.

Apologize.

[Rand]

As I've concluded prior, HP is your luck meter and therefore you aren't actually getting hit until you die

And what if I say part of it is your "fatigue meter" and you get less good at dodging as you get tired and finally take a solid, devastating hit you couldn't dodge or block in time?

[rusty_shackleford]

As I've concluded prior, HP is your luck meter and therefore you aren't actually getting hit until you die

And what if I say part of it is your "fatigue meter" and you get less good at dodging as you get tired and finally take a solid, devastating hit you couldn't dodge or block in time?

Guy in armor was already fatigued so I pushed him over and he drowned in the mud

[TKVNC]

Also, plate armor is added weight. As much as people want to post videos of a guy not even in full armor(or the padding beneath it) doing somersaults, you get tired not even wearing any armor when fighting. Look at how winded boxers, MMA fighters, etc., are into matches. Do you think wearing an extra 30lbs across their body would make zero difference?
So if you wanted to do full 'simulationism', have armor add severe fatigue penalties.

Also, don't forget to simulate heat and have him enter a heatstroke because he can't adequately cool down in armor

This is true. But at the same time, you don't have to expend as much energy on blocking, or avoiding attacks, since the armour can simply take some of them. This then gives you more time to plan attacks, and logically, spend less time running out of energy.

[rusty_shackleford]

Also, plate armor is added weight. As much as people want to post videos of a guy not even in full armor(or the padding beneath it) doing somersaults, you get tired not even wearing any armor when fighting. Look at how winded boxers, MMA fighters, etc., are into matches. Do you think wearing an extra 30lbs across their body would make zero difference?
So if you wanted to do full 'simulationism', have armor add severe fatigue penalties.

Also, don't forget to simulate heat and have him enter a heatstroke because he can't adequately cool down in armor

This is true. But at the same time, you don't have to expend as much energy on blocking, or avoiding attacks, since the armour can simply take some of them. This then gives you more time to plan attacks, and logically, spend less time running out of energy.

I adjust the rules to say getting hit makes you more tired than simply moving out of the way

[rusty_shackleford]

► Show Spoiler

Just an energy gauge

Fatigue plays a part in many actions, so the lower a character's Fatigue gets, the more difficult it becomes to fight, cast spells, or do anything else effectively. A low fatigue will even reduce the height of jumps. Surprisingly, even Mercantile is affected by fatigue. Similarly, with Fatigue raised above the derived total, skills become more effective.

If the maximum fatigue of an NPC is set to a zero or negative value (mainly through Damage Attribute), that NPC will collapse to the ground in the same manner of exhausting their stamina through hand-to-hand combat, until the three-day cycle resets. If this happens to the player (mainly through Reflecting this aggression), it will count as a death.

Apologize.

The issue is it regenerates far too fast and isn't something that slowly builds up.

[J1M]

quick gewgle suggests top-tier defensive fighters in MMA sit around a 60-65% avoidance rate, being a bit faster in your reflexes seems more likely than just magicking some lightning

Dodging a sword blow is significantly harder. And getting hit once is enough if you don’t have any armor.

And I'm saying we can breed(incl. genetic engineering) someone to have superhuman reflexes right now, but we can't breed someone to call down lightning bolts from the sky on demand(which would require external devices)

Why would it need to come from the sky?

[Niggler]

I would like to be a smug person and state that this discussion does not affect Monks.

And it feels good.

Monks are fun

[TKVNC]

Dodging a sword blow is significantly harder. And getting hit once is enough if you don’t have any armor.

And I'm saying we can breed(incl. genetic engineering) someone to have superhuman reflexes right now, but we can't breed someone to call down lightning bolts from the sky on demand(which would require external devices)

Why would it need to come from the sky?

Also, what is a gun?

[DemoGraph]

He still wears plate though

I don't think Tolkien describes anyone as wearing plate armor at all, it likely did not exist

Tolkine was an Early Middle-Ages scholar, and very much liked Beowulf, and the Anglo-Saxons, so I'd very much assume mail armour was what he had in mind.

Plate cuirasses are still possible (and likely).
I had an impression (maybe movie-derived) that orcs tended to wear cuirasses on top of leather armor.

[TKVNC]

I don't think Tolkien describes anyone as wearing plate armor at all, it likely did not exist

Tolkine was an Early Middle-Ages scholar, and very much liked Beowulf, and the Anglo-Saxons, so I'd very much assume mail armour was what he had in mind.

Plate cuirasses are still possible (and likely).
I had an impression (maybe movie-derived) that orcs tended to wear cuirasses on top of leather armor.

I wouldn't have thought so, the Early Middle-Ages, the 4th Century AD (give or take) till the 11th Century AD was dominated by mail armour. Breastplates only began to appear in the 13th Century AD. From what I understand Tolkien was aiming for the haubergeon, or byrnie styled armour, it may be possible to consider lamellar, such that the Eastern Romans, or late Western Romans used, but plate I would discount.

[Ranselknulf]

Armor restrictions by class do not make sense.

I think its fine to have diablo / path of exile style armor restrictions though.

Plate Mail requires 80 STR, or Female Imbued Chainmail Bikini requires 90 INT.

I don't think it should be universal though, but only on specific armors that have massive bonuses. Base plain armors should be wearable by anyone. Only armors with special modifiers should be restricted somehow. Could possibly add a mechanic where bad things have a random chance to happen if you wear gear outside of your skill or ability range.

Anyways, I think the path to specialization via armor would be adding role / archetype specific abilities to armor types. Ie.. Cloth Armor of Fireballs could increase your fireball skills. Cloth armor would be fairly common, but maybe there is a platemail of fireballs that is rare and obtainable through a deep dungeon dive.

It would balance everyone being a platemail fireball wizard, but still give people the opportunity to try and be one.

[Brother Michael]

Thinking on it, other than actual magic, this is probably the most unrealistic aspect of RPG combat — not being able to dodge really well. I can't think of any RPGs that actually try to simulate fatigue as something that wears you down in a fight, sometimes you get an 'energy bar' that just refills after a breath or two.

I had this debate with that one unpleasant fella with a Chinese mindset last year. I can dig up the posts, but the point is that even if the fatigue is real, the ability to ignore sharpened steel hitting your face is too powerful to forgo.

As I've concluded prior, HP is your luck meter and therefore you aren't actually getting hit until you die

https://rpghq.org/gygax-enworld-qa.html

3) How do you explain hit points, or do you even bother?

3) That's easy. HPs represent not only the physical person, but that one's luck, skill in avoiding damage. As luck runs low, muscles tire, and reflexes slow their measure, HPs. are lost to reflect this. The last few remaining are the actual physical body being harmed. Okay, its rationalizing, but it works pretty well, I think ;-)

It was meant to partially represent a person's luck.

ergo,
vampires drain luck

Right, because it hit your helmet and not your brain.

[Rand]

I would like to be a smug person and state that this discussion does not affect Monks.

And it feels good.

Monks are fun

okay, so to you gay = fun

revealing