Should WIZards use WISdom or intelligence?

[Xenich]

I'm just saying, they ain't called an intard.

I like intelligence as the main, dexterity as a secondary to some extent for casting ability. I think a wizard with low dexterity would have trouble casting some spells due to the precise timing and motion of casting, drawing runes/glyphs, etc...

[Acrux]

Speaking of which, does Gandalf count as a cleric?

No, Gandalf was a 6th level magic user.

[rusty_shackleford]

Speaking of which, does Gandalf count as a cleric?

No, Gandalf was a 6th level magic user.

Gandalf received his spells from a higher power

[Oyster Sauce]

Speaking of which, does Gandalf count as a cleric?

No, Gandalf was a 6th level magic user.

Gandalf received his spells from a higher power

Are wizards clerics of Mystryl/Mystra?

[Xenich]

Wizards should use dex for the intricate hand gestures.

I can't remember if there is something in the rules concerning it, but my DM made this a component of game play. It was not uncommon for a Wizard to have to make a dex roll in casting spells at times (especially their dex was low) and certainly when there was a pressing situation that would impede that task (combat, climbing, swimming, etc...). Though I also played with a DM that forced you to keep stock of your spell casing components as well and account for them in your inventory like you would food and water.

[rusty_shackleford]

No, Gandalf was a 6th level magic user.

Gandalf received his spells from a higher power

Are wizards clerics of Mystryl/Mystra?

No, because that's a specific setting.
With regards to forgotten realms, I'd still say no because mystra doesn't pick who to grant spells to, which is a major distinction. A cleric is specifically granted his spells. Mystra merely maintains the weave which allows access to magic.

[Acrux]

Speaking of which, does Gandalf count as a cleric?

No, Gandalf was a 6th level magic user.

Gandalf received his spells from a higher power

Eh, maybe. It could be because he is a higher power and has them intrinsically. But Tolkien always maintained that Elven (and, by extension, Maian) magic in Middle-earth is equivalent to "Art". That really long letter he wrote to Milton Waldman goes into a lot ofvthis thoughts on it.

[rusty_shackleford]

No, Gandalf was a 6th level magic user.

Gandalf received his spells from a higher power

Eh, maybe. It could be because he is a higher power and has them intrinsically. But Tolkien always maintained that Elven (and, by extension, Maian) magic in Middle-earth is equivalent to "Art". That really long letter he wrote to Milton Waldman goes into a lot ofvthis thoughts on it.

Would you be more likely to say an angel is a cleric or a wizard?

[Acrux]

In Middle-earth? Wizard - especially knowing Tolkien's very precise use, and knowledge of, the root of that word.

[rusty_shackleford]

In Middle-earth? Wizard - especially knowing Tolkien's very precise use, and knowledge of, the root of that word.

I've been up too long to debate this but the answer is cleric

[Oyster Sauce]

In Middle-earth? Wizard - especially knowing Tolkien's very precise use, and knowledge of, the root of that word.

I've been up too long to debate this but the answer is cleric

Gandalf's magic is derived from the batteries in his staff

The Hobbit The Battle of the Five Armies Alfrid\u0027s Death \u0026 Gandalf vs Troll Extended Scene

[Karmic Acumen]

Speaking of which, does Gandalf count as a cleric?

No, Gandalf was a 6th level magic user.

Gandalf received his spells from a higher power

No he didn't, Gandalf is a Maia. In D&D terms, he's a celestial outsider with innate spell-like abilities.

The only thing the Higher Power did is limit his level and forbid him from using most of the powers he DOES have access to as a level 6 celestial template empyreal sorcerer.

[J1M]

It solves a problem in a way I don't like for a problem I don't like(MMO balance)
I'd prefer something like say, ability modifiers as item effects. These tend to appear in Diablo 2 clones mostly for whatever reason, I think path of exiles has probably the most robust system for it, maybe?

It's nice to have a stat other than stamina that everyone is interested in. It creates some variation. I wouldn't want every stat to be like that.

Agreed modifiers that change how you use an ability are more interesting.

Could have created Mastery1 through MasteryN that simply does different things for each class. So if a druid looks at a trinket with Mastery3 it says something like "Gives wrath a 37% chance to refund mana cost" but for other classes completely different.

Yes it would have taken more effort. But it also would have been cooler + blizzard made infinite money from WoW so I don't care about how difficult it would have been.

Heck, how about a system where the effect is randomized per player(but still for their class)?

They did create 34 different effects for mastery. They just don't show a dynamic tooltip for mastery on the item.

Now you could argue that of those 34 some are a bit basic, like extra frost damage, but overall mastery is probably the best change to stats they made after launch.

List of effects:
https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Mastery

[rusty_shackleford]

No, Gandalf was a 6th level magic user.

Gandalf received his spells from a higher power

No he didn't, Gandalf is a Maia. In D&D terms, he's a celestial outsider with innate spell-like abilities.

The only thing the Higher Power did is limit his level and forbid him from using most of the powers he DOES have access to as a level 6 celestial template empyreal sorcerer.

he receives his power from his boss

[Karmic Acumen]

Gandalf received his spells from a higher power

No he didn't, Gandalf is a Maia. In D&D terms, he's a celestial outsider with innate spell-like abilities.

The only thing the Higher Power did is limit his level and forbid him from using most of the powers he DOES have access to as a level 6 celestial template empyreal sorcerer.

he receives his power from his boss

No he doesn't, I just told you, his boss actually limits his powers. His powers are all his, just like Sauron's powers are all his. They are the same type of creature, and in fact Gandalf would have a 50/50 change of beating Sauron in a direct fight, if he wasn't nerfed by Eru. That's per Word of God.

[rusty_shackleford]

No he didn't, Gandalf is a Maia. In D&D terms, he's a celestial outsider with innate spell-like abilities.

The only thing the Higher Power did is limit his level and forbid him from using most of the powers he DOES have access to as a level 6 celestial template empyreal sorcerer.

he receives his power from his boss

No he doesn't. His powers are all his, just like Sauron's powers are all his. They are the same type of creature.

If God sends you back to earth after you die with new powers, are you really going to say those powers are all yours and not given to you?

[DemoGraph]

Speaking of which, does Gandalf count as a cleric?

No, Gandalf was a 6th level magic user.

Gandalf received his spells from a higher power

He didn't. He was extraplanar being, maia, akin to angel. But he got his spellcasting ability from his nature, not as a gift from the gods.
Saruman and Sauron didn't lose their spellcasting when they converted. And Sauron retained his skills when Morgoth was banished into astral.

[rusty_shackleford]

But he got his spellcasting ability from his nature, not as a gift from the gods.

If God sends you back to earth after you die with new powers, are you really going to say those powers are all yours and not given to you?

[DemoGraph]

But he got his spellcasting ability from his nature, not as a gift from the gods.

If God sends you back to earth after you die with new powers, are you really going to say those powers are all yours and not given to you?

Yes, because provider can't turn them off if I sin.

If engine in my car gets upgraded, the car still belongs to me, not to the mechanic.

[Karmic Acumen]

he receives his power from his boss

No he doesn't. His powers are all his, just like Sauron's powers are all his. They are the same type of creature.

If God sends you back to earth after you die with new powers, are you really going to say those powers are all yours and not given to you?

First off, you were clearly arguing for Gandalf working like a cleric until this point, so don't try this goal-shifting nonsense now.

Secondly, if those powers are powers I can use just because I can, then yes, they're mine. Even IF they were given to me. Because they were given. That's what a gift is.

Thirdly, this isn't what happened with Gandalf. Gandalf had a temporary death experience during which he got to rest with big daddy, and then was sent back until his task is done. He didn't get any new powers, he was allowed to use more of the ones he already had all along as a literal ANGEL DEMIGOD. In DnD terms, his geas was lightened a bit so he could take the place of Saruman.

[rusty_shackleford]

Yes, because provider can't turn them off if I sin.

?
Yes Eru can

[DemoGraph]

Yes, because provider can't turn them off if I sin.

?
Yes Eru can

He didn't do it to Saruman. Or Sauron.
If he could, LOTR wouldn't exist.

[rusty_shackleford]

Yes, because provider can't turn them off if I sin.

?
Yes Eru can

He didn't do it to Saruman. Or Sauron.
If he could, LOTR wouldn't exist.

Why do you think he sent Gandalf the White?

[Karmic Acumen]

All else aside, it's kind of cool how often and regularly this debate about Gandalf happens, and Maia in general. It gives me hope that maybe this IP won't be forever tarnished by all the ******** Hollywood is trying to do to it.

[DemoGraph]

?
Yes Eru can

He didn't do it to Saruman. Or Sauron.
If he could, LOTR wouldn't exist.

Why do you think he sent Gandalf the White?

Because he's colorblind.

[rusty_shackleford]

No he doesn't. His powers are all his, just like Sauron's powers are all his. They are the same type of creature.

If God sends you back to earth after you die with new powers, are you really going to say those powers are all yours and not given to you?

First off, you were clearly arguing for Gandalf working like a cleric until this point, so don't try this goal-shifting nonsense now.

Secondly, if those powers are powers I can use just because I can, then yes, they're mine. Even IF they were given to me. Because they were given. That's what a gift is.

Thirdly, this isn't what happened with Gandalf. Gandalf had a temporary death experience during which he got to rest with big daddy, and then was sent back until his task is done. He didn't get any new powers, he was allowed to use more of the ones he already had all along as a literal ANGEL DEMIGOD. In DnD terms, his geas was lightened a bit so he could take the place of Saruman.

Gandalf dies, he does not have a "temporary death experience".

He didn't get any new powers,

Yes, he did.

Letter 156

The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. 'Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.' Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater. When he speaks he commands attention; the old Gandalf could not have dealt so with Théoden, nor with Saruman. He is still under the obligation of concealing his power and of teaching rather than forcing or dominating wills, but where the physical powers of the Enemy are too great for the good will of the opposers to be effective he can act in emergency as an 'angel' – no more violently than the release of St Peter from prison.

[Tweed]

But where are all the DUMBards?

[Karmic Acumen]

Yes, he did.

Ok, I'll grant you that the 'enhanced' in that letter can be interpreted to mean Gandalf's baseline is bigger now, instead of just a 'release from prison' as he says after.

They're still his powers though, not cleric mechanics.

[DemoGraph]

But where are all the DUMBards?

Fighters, duh.

[Stack of Turtles]

Speaking of which, does Gandalf count as a cleric?

No, Gandalf was a 6th level magic user.

Gandalf received his spells from a higher power

Gandalf WAS the higher power.

He had an even higher power, but Eru was't personally loading his spells or communing with him, so I don't think Cleric makes sense. Besides, that's really only canon to the Extended Universe.