Should WIZards use WISdom or intelligence?

[J1M]

So ahn. Can we talk about Wisdom? What is it even supposed to represent? Faith? Perception? And don't be a ****** and quote some manual's definition of that stat, I read those and they suck. I can tolerate Charisma being a measure of how well people react to your presence, regardless of source (looks, leadership, "presence" or whatever), but Wisdom? How can a moron be wise? Why are clerics and druids better at seeing and hearing things? To me this has always been a failed stat and no wonder other systems don't bother reproducing it.

They don't see and hear better, they know what to pay attention to.

A person with life experience can impart wisdom on you that a college student with high grades can't.

Etc

Same problem as with the previous post: the two things are not mechanically connected. A 15 y/o can have maxed out wisdom and a veteran warrior can dump it. Every attempt to justify the stat does so by attempting to tie it to something else, which just proves my point: WIS doesn't stand on its own.

Any individual with max wisdom is an exceptional individual. Often existing in a setting where one or more gods or other celestial creatures speak directly to or through mortals. It doesn't matter if the wisdom is from life experience, genetics, or divine inspiration.

[Eyestabber]

Some attributes are innate, some are partially innate and partially learned, some entirely learned. It's a bit of a mess.
There's no effective way to increase your intelligence outside of fantasy magic. It is pretty much entirely genetic past a certain minimum environmental threshold.

Intelligence often doubles for knowledge however, which is very different. Knowledge is learned. Likewise, wisdom(somewhat similar but not quite) is learned. Both are closer to skills than attributes.

An example that blurs the line is strength. Potential strength is genetic (ehh, let's ignore steroids), but actual strength is 'learned'.

Another good topic to do... Maybe mix with another one here...

You can increase your intelligence by watching Rick and Morty and playing Paradox games. But anyway, we all know the answer on Wisdom: it's a gamey stat that groups together Perception (noticing things), Intuition and divine connection or "faith" or whatever. Sawyer and his ilk would later look into this and go "huh, I can make my own gamey stat" and that's how we got muscle wizard (the "power" attribute from Pillars of Eternity).

"Power" is gamey but so is strength itself. What stops a wizard from just pumping iron and gaining a bunch of strength over the course of half a year?

What!? No! Strength is a measurable reality that directly impacts things like punching and weight lifting. It's the quintessential stat. "Power" is a bizarro abstraction that just adapts to the context of your character, so it can be strength, magical damage or the ability to press the trigger of a musket really hard and make the shots hit HARDER, somehow. As for the second part, the answer is point-buy limitations, kek. Also, ask this guy:

Jon Irenicus - A Baldur\u0027s Gate II Cut-scene Collection

[rusty_shackleford]

You can increase your intelligence by watching Rick and Morty and playing Paradox games. But anyway, we all know the answer on Wisdom: it's a gamey stat that groups together Perception (noticing things), Intuition and divine connection or "faith" or whatever. Sawyer and his ilk would later look into this and go "huh, I can make my own gamey stat" and that's how we got muscle wizard (the "power" attribute from Pillars of Eternity).

"Power" is gamey but so is strength itself. What stops a wizard from just pumping iron and gaining a bunch of strength over the course of half a year?

What!? No! Strength is a measurable reality that directly impacts things like punching and weight lifting. It's the quintessential stat. "Power" is a bizarro abstraction that just adapts to the context of your character, so it can be strength, magical damage or the ability to press the trigger of a musket really hard and make the shots hit HARDER, somehow. As for the second part, the answer is point-buy limitations, kek. Also, ask this guy:

Jon Irenicus - A Baldur\u0027s Gate II Cut-scene Collection

Right, "the second part" is just as gamey as power's explanation. Strength is clearly not a physical equivalent of intelligence, potential strength would be.

[Eyestabber]

"Power" is gamey but so is strength itself. What stops a wizard from just pumping iron and gaining a bunch of strength over the course of half a year?

What!? No! Strength is a measurable reality that directly impacts things like punching and weight lifting. It's the quintessential stat. "Power" is a bizarro abstraction that just adapts to the context of your character, so it can be strength, magical damage or the ability to press the trigger of a musket really hard and make the shots hit HARDER, somehow. As for the second part, the answer is point-buy limitations, kek. Also, ask this guy:

Jon Irenicus - A Baldur\u0027s Gate II Cut-scene Collection

Right, "the second part" is just as gamey as power's explanation. Strength is clearly not a physical equivalent of intelligence, potential strength would be.

You want a less gamey answer? Fine. There's nothing stopping the wizard from being super strong, in the same sense there's nothing preventing your doctor from also being a world renowned ballet dancer. As for the second part of this post, I agree with you: stats conflate potentiality and actuality (in the aristotelian sense) more often than not. But since RPGs are all about improvement they rarely care for potentiality, I'd say a stat represents the here and now.

[rusty_shackleford]

What!? No! Strength is a measurable reality that directly impacts things like punching and weight lifting. It's the quintessential stat. "Power" is a bizarro abstraction that just adapts to the context of your character, so it can be strength, magical damage or the ability to press the trigger of a musket really hard and make the shots hit HARDER, somehow. As for the second part, the answer is point-buy limitations, kek. Also, ask this guy:

Jon Irenicus - A Baldur\u0027s Gate II Cut-scene Collection

Right, "the second part" is just as gamey as power's explanation. Strength is clearly not a physical equivalent of intelligence, potential strength would be.

You want a less gamey answer? Fine. There's nothing stopping the wizard from being super strong, in the same sense there's nothing preventing your doctor from also being a world renowned ballet dancer. As for the second part of this post, I agree with you: stats conflate potentiality and actuality (in the aristotelian sense) more often than not. But since RPGs are all about improvement they rarely care for potentiality. I'd say a stat represents the here and now.

I'm not saying the wizard has to be the World's Strongest Man, but regular bodyweight exercises should be expected of any adventurer.
The difference between a warrior and a wizard should probably come down to athletic ability, skill with weapons, experience, etc., and probably not strength.

Much to think about!

[Oyster Sauce]

The difference between a warrior and a wizard should probably come down to athletic ability, skill with weapons, experience, etc., and probably not strength.

For simplicity's sake we could just categorize all of these things as "power"

[Eyestabber]

If the warrior is as strong as the wizard he should ***.

[rusty_shackleford]

The difference between a warrior and a wizard should probably come down to athletic ability, skill with weapons, experience, etc., and probably not strength.

For simplicity's sake we could just categorize all of these things as "power"

Yes, you've recreated mastery from WoW, look at all the stats that got removed to make room for it.

[rusty_shackleford]

If the warrior is as strong as the wizard he should ***.

Unless it's a game of superheroes, which most fantasy RPGs aren't despite there being magic and such, the difference won't be all that big.
Fighters aren't good at fighting because they can pick up a house and throw it.

[J1M]

The difference between a warrior and a wizard should probably come down to athletic ability, skill with weapons, experience, etc., and probably not strength.

For simplicity's sake we could just categorize all of these things as "power"

Yes, you've recreated mastery from WoW, look at all the stats that got removed to make room for it.

Might be a topic for a different thread, but I don't agree that mastery caused the removal of stats like hit rating. And I actually think that mastery is a fairly clever idea in terms of creating a new stat as long as what it does for each class is interesting. Certainly better than passive abilities that convert critical hit into parry chance and other things they've done.

[rusty_shackleford]

For simplicity's sake we could just categorize all of these things as "power"

Yes, you've recreated mastery from WoW, look at all the stats that got removed to make room for it.

Might be a topic for a different thread, but I don't agree that mastery caused the removal of stats like hit rating. And I actually think that mastery is a fairly clever idea in terms of creating a new stat as long as what it does for each class is interesting. Certainly better than passive abilities that convert critical hit into parry chance and other things they've done.

It solves a problem in a way I don't like for a problem I don't like(MMO balance)
I'd prefer something like say, ability modifiers as item effects. These tend to appear in Diablo 2 clones mostly for whatever reason, I think path of exiles has probably the most robust system for it, maybe?

[rusty_shackleford]

There's also the issue that we've simply accepted that being really smart means you are just a good wizard automatically, which is the reason for the push for strength to be a physical equivalent.
Most adventurers would probably be well above average intelligence anyways.

Attribute systems always cause far more problems than they solve, and the problems they do solve can usually be solved in other ways (eg. talents/flaws).

Skills-first is the way.

They hated him because he was right!

[J1M]

Yes, you've recreated mastery from WoW, look at all the stats that got removed to make room for it.

Might be a topic for a different thread, but I don't agree that mastery caused the removal of stats like hit rating. And I actually think that mastery is a fairly clever idea in terms of creating a new stat as long as what it does for each class is interesting. Certainly better than passive abilities that convert critical hit into parry chance and other things they've done.

It solves a problem in a way I don't like for a problem I don't like(MMO balance)
I'd prefer something like say, ability modifiers as item effects. These tend to appear in Diablo 2 clones mostly for whatever reason, I think path of exiles has probably the most robust system for it, maybe?

It's nice to have a stat other than stamina that everyone is interested in. It creates some variation. I wouldn't want every stat to be like that.

Agreed modifiers that change how you use an ability are more interesting.

[rusty_shackleford]

Might be a topic for a different thread, but I don't agree that mastery caused the removal of stats like hit rating. And I actually think that mastery is a fairly clever idea in terms of creating a new stat as long as what it does for each class is interesting. Certainly better than passive abilities that convert critical hit into parry chance and other things they've done.

It solves a problem in a way I don't like for a problem I don't like(MMO balance)
I'd prefer something like say, ability modifiers as item effects. These tend to appear in Diablo 2 clones mostly for whatever reason, I think path of exiles has probably the most robust system for it, maybe?

It's nice to have a stat other than stamina that everyone is interested in. It creates some variation. I wouldn't want every stat to be like that.

Agreed modifiers that change how you use an ability are more interesting.

Could have created Mastery1 through MasteryN that simply does different things for each class. So if a druid looks at a trinket with Mastery3 it says something like "Gives wrath a 37% chance to refund mana cost" but for other classes completely different.

Yes it would have taken more effort. But it also would have been cooler + blizzard made infinite money from WoW so I don't care about how difficult it would have been.

Heck, how about a system where the effect is randomized per player(but still for their class)?

[Acrux]

Point buy systems have ruined your minds. The best comment rusty made was that it was better when you had to roll for stats and then choose a class. All the rest of this discussion really becomes fallout from that. Just like in real life, some characters might be exceptional in many areas. Some are average at everything.

[rusty_shackleford]

Point buy systems have ruined your minds. The best comment rusty made was that it was better when you had to roll for stats and then choose a class. All the rest of this discussion really becomes fallout from that. Just like in real life, some characters might be exceptional in many areas. Some are average at everything.

Average characters are working the field or dead. Adventurers are exceptional, and unless making a game where the intention is otherwise, you should start from there.

[Oyster Sauce]

Pick your class and then roll for stats like a man

[Boontaker]

Sounds like a bunch of ****** sorcerers in this thread trying to say wizardry is just feeling the magic. Real wizards are required to know each magical sigil, sign, movement in order to cast a simple light spell. Expanding into higher magic requires intimate knowledge and understanding of every possible reaction that comes not only from a proper spell cast but the consequences of an improper cast as well. Unless your ancestors were some furry ******* then you need to be a top tier scientist in order to cast magic missile more than once in your life without blowing your own fingers off.

[rusty_shackleford]

knowledge

Right, it's a skill to be practiced and studied.

[Oyster Sauce]

Sounds like a bunch of ****** sorcerers in this thread trying to say wizardry is just feeling the magic. Real wizards are required to know each magical sigil, sign, movement in order to cast a simple light spell. Expanding into higher magic requires intimate knowledge and understanding of every possible reaction that comes not only from a proper spell cast but the consequences of an improper cast as well. Unless your ancestors were some furry ******* then you need to be a top tier scientist in order to cast magic missile more than once in your life without blowing your own fingers off.

Imagine working that hard to be exactly as powerful as the guy who just genetically knows magic

[Boontaker]

knowledge

Right, it's a skill to be practiced and studied.

You could leave 8 INT grognard in the best arcane library in existence and he would never get past the most basic of Magic for dummies 101 spells, detect magic.

Wis is should be for sorcerers/psychics
Cha should be for those who commune with others. IE clerics, warlocks,druids
Int for people who figure it out the hard way, by knowing magic down to its very fabric, molecules, atoms.

[Boontaker]

Sounds like a bunch of ****** sorcerers in this thread trying to say wizardry is just feeling the magic. Real wizards are required to know each magical sigil, sign, movement in order to cast a simple light spell. Expanding into higher magic requires intimate knowledge and understanding of every possible reaction that comes not only from a proper spell cast but the consequences of an improper cast as well. Unless your ancestors were some furry ******* then you need to be a top tier scientist in order to cast magic missile more than once in your life without blowing your own fingers off.

Imagine working that hard to be exactly as powerful as the guy who just genetically knows magic

Modern d&d is completely backwards imo. Why would the cleric of the evil goddess of baby murder have a high wisdom? Sorcerers shouldn't have enough understanding to do meta magic but should have infinitely more magic available than wizards

[Acrux]

Ever heard of someone who is "worldly wise"?

[Sinfield]

I'm just saying, having Magic scale off of WIS makes it seem more mystical.
This would nuke class balance though

[Tweed]

Sounds like a bunch of ****** sorcerers in this thread trying to say wizardry is just feeling the magic. Real wizards are required to know each magical sigil, sign, movement in order to cast a simple light spell. Expanding into higher magic requires intimate knowledge and understanding of every possible reaction that comes not only from a proper spell cast but the consequences of an improper cast as well. Unless your ancestors were some furry ******* then you need to be a top tier scientist in order to cast magic missile more than once in your life without blowing your own fingers off.

Imagine working that hard to be exactly as powerful as the guy who just genetically knows magic

Modern d&d is completely backwards imo. Why would the cleric of the evil goddess of baby murder have a high wisdom? Sorcerers shouldn't have enough understanding to do meta magic but should have infinitely more magic available than wizards

Might and Magic used personality.

[Stack of Turtles]

Some attributes are innate, some are partially innate and partially learned, some entirely learned. It's a bit of a mess.
There's no effective way to increase your intelligence outside of fantasy magic. It is pretty much entirely genetic past a certain minimum environmental threshold.

Intelligence often doubles for knowledge however, which is very different. Knowledge is learned. Likewise, wisdom(somewhat similar but not quite) is learned. Both are closer to skills than attributes.

An example that blurs the line is strength. Potential strength is genetic (ehh, let's ignore steroids), but actual strength is 'learned'.

Another good topic to do... Maybe mix with another one here...

You can increase your intelligence by watching Rick and Morty and playing Paradox games. But anyway, we all know the answer on Wisdom: it's a gamey stat that groups together Perception (noticing things), Intuition and divine connection or "faith" or whatever. Sawyer and his ilk would later look into this and go "huh, I can make my own gamey stat" and that's how we got muscle wizard (the "power" attribute from Pillars of Eternity).

"Power" is gamey but so is strength itself. What stops a wizard from just pumping iron and gaining a bunch of strength over the course of half a year?

Wizards all have EDS.

[Tangerine]

I like piety as a stat, but it shouldn't be as sticky as it is in most games.

[Dorateen]

In original D&D and AD&D, intelligence based spell casters were called Magic Users.

"Wizard" was a class title only earned at 10th level.

[rusty_shackleford]

"Wizard" was a class title only earned at 10th level.

But they were not wise...

[rusty_shackleford]

Speaking of which, does Gandalf count as a cleric?