Compressed map vs slice

[rusty_shackleford]

Something compressed map gets is you can actually walk between point A and B, it's rather necessary for slice-style design to have some sort of fast travel

e.g., taxi in VTMB

[J1M]

Developers who make cities with fake doors should be shot in the head

Imagine how awful Cyberpunk 2077 would be if you could go in every room of every building.

[Oyster Sauce]

Developers who make cities with fake doors should be shot in the head

Imagine how awful Cyberpunk 2077 would be if you could go in every room of every building.

That would rule

[Norfleet]

Imagine how awful Cyberpunk 2077 would be if you could go in every room of every building.

I wouldn't say it'd be awful, but it'd also be pointless. Imagine if you could go into every room of every building, and absolutely nothing relevant would be found there, because just as in reality, random buildings do not contain anything relevant to your interests.

That would rule

For approximately 10 minutes, anyway. Then you'd realize the city contains endless expanses of this slop, and probably never do it again. Assuming you didn't get shot for invading someone's house. As it turns out, the ability to go anywhere only matters if you can do anything there. Is there anything interesting to be found, or just more slop? Is there anything to DO there? Can you make it yours? Defend it from other actors trying to take it from you? If not, it's slop. There's nothing to be found inside Random Peasant Hut #1478 except random procgen slop. I mean, in Nomansskyy, you can visit a functionally infinite expanse of random planets and find more slop, but the novelty of doing this quickly wears off and you will stop trying to Pokeyman in short order.

[Norfleet]

Something compressed map gets is you can actually walk between point A and B

On the other hand, it also means your sniper rifle has a shorter range than a real-life throwing knife.

it's rather necessary for slice-style design to have some sort of fast travel

Unless the map is REALLY compressed, your compressed map is also going to have one. Just because it's POSSIBLE to walk real-time across the entirety of Skyrim does not make this a great experience when your goal is simply to get from point A to point B. And also, that getting launched by a giant will send to halfway back to town.

[NotAI]

There need to be more "to scale" experiments for maps. It's 2025.

[logincrash]

There need to be more "to scale" experiments for maps. It's 2025.

Yeah, and competent devs are a dying breed. Whatever "to scale" experiment is gonna come out, it'll be coded by a billion 45 IQ pajeets in Unreal Engine 5, which means it'll take up 975 GB of hard drive space, look and run like dogshit, and melt your CPU in five minutes.

[NotAI]

Developers who make cities with fake doors should be shot in the head

Imagine how awful Cyberpunk 2077 would be if you could go in every room of every building.

Why? It would be amazing.

[J1M]

Developers who make cities with fake doors should be shot in the head

Imagine how awful Cyberpunk 2077 would be if you could go in every room of every building.

Why? It would be amazing.

Because I want to infiltrate a top secret government vault, not see copious examples of how poor people live in skyboxes.

I agree it might be an interesting experiment for an immersive to do that at a smaller scale and fully detail a town in Alaska or something.

[Norfleet]

Developers who make cities with fake doors should be shot in the head

Imagine how awful Cyberpunk 2077 would be if you could go in every room of every building.

Why? It would be amazing.

Yes and no. On one hand, it would be an impressive level of autistic attention to physical detail. On the other hand, it would be entirely purposeless, because either nothing of worth will be found in some peasant's skybox, AND you will not actually be allowed to do this and will find yourself being harassed by the popo if you try, rendering it a purposeless non-option a player may only attempt once accidentally or for the lulz (and thus a total waste of dev time).

That's why this kind of thing only makes sense in post-apocalyptic survival games where you DO want what is found in a random poor's hut, AND you have the ability to thus claim this space as your own either unchallenged, or by defeating the challengers. Otherwise it just doesn't make much sense or serve any useful purpose.

[sheet]

Procedurally-generated seeded NPC generation would be one actual use for AI in scaling games up. Make every apartment enterable, write a subset of reaction chains (e.g. they get mad and pull a gun because you barged in, they're throwing a party and think you're just a guest, they think you're a drug dealer, they think you're a cop and surrender, they try and seduce you, etc.) Have them generate semi-random quests based on your dialog choices and how you handle things, such as giving them some hidden RNG disposition levels like "trusting" "hospitable" "angry" "diffusing" to determine the dice rolls.
It would be shallow, but so are many open world side quest anyways. Make the main quest actually force you to look up addresses and apartment numbers.
This would work better for some old timey 1900s setting like LA Noire than for Cyberpunk. That way you can't rely on GPS and cell phones for convenience, but you'd rely on finding actual phones, dialing numbers, looking at maps.

[Norfleet]

Procedurally-generated seeded NPC generation would be one actual use for AI in scaling games up. Make every apartment enterable, write a subset of reaction chains (e.g. they get mad and pull a gun because you barged in, they're throwing a party and think you're just a guest, they think you're a drug dealer, they think you're a cop and surrender, they try and seduce you, etc.) Have them generate semi-random quests based on your dialog choices and how you handle things, such as giving them some hidden RNG disposition levels like "trusting" "hospitable" "angry" "diffusing" to determine the dice rolls.

The capacity for this already existed pre-AI and has been attempted before, but ultimately, it runs into a core problem: Either the player is encouraged to do this, in which case the setting gets a little silly with the player barging into everyone's houses with impunity, or the player is discouraged from doing this with realistic levels of consequences, which rapidly extinguishes the behavior and renders the effort of coding it rather wasted. Like I said: It makes more sense in a open-ended sandbox where the player is there to simply exist and do whatever, than a more directed setting where the player must or must not follow certain paths. If your setting is Fallout or GTA where it's perfectly valid gameplay to be a violent raider or a criminal, then yes, this is really a thing that SHOULD be in the game. If your setting is any kind of civilized setting where the consequences of such a thing quickly pigeonholes the player into a gameplay path that leads to a dead end, then this is a waste of both player and developer time.

This would work better for some old timey 1900s setting like LA Noire than for Cyberpunk.

I'd say it works better in Cyberpunk than a more contemporary or historical setting: In Cyberpunk, half the population is on drugs anyway, so when the AI starts hallucinating madly, at least it won't break character too much.

[Demonic Fate]

One little trick Cyberpunk uses is the speedometer. You'll drive around in a sports car that goes pleasantly VROOOOM and the in-game speedometer will tell you that you're doing 150km/h or whatever, but if youwere to measure distance divided by time you'd see you are actually doing a sleepy 30-40 km/h, like a moped.

Granted, this is probably less for scale and more because realistic speeds would be impossible to control; most Cyberpunk players already slaughter a dozen civilians every time they drive to the corner store. But it definitely helps if your 5-minute cross-city drive feels fast because you think you drove like Verstappen and not because the city is 1/8th its real size.

[Norfleet]

One little trick Cyberpunk uses is the speedometer. You'll drive around in a sports car that goes pleasantly VROOOOM and the in-game speedometer will tell you that you're doing 150km/h or whatever, but if youwere to measure distance divided by time you'd see you are actually doing a sleepy 30-40 km/h, like a moped.

Wouldn't that mean that the player could thus potentially RUN faster than the car? 30km/h is the speed of a running man (Usain Bolt does 100m in 10 seconds), and I can't imagine a cybernetically augmented runner would be slower, given that vidya game characters already tend to have very high movement speeds relative to real humans.

[Demonic Fate]

One little trick Cyberpunk uses is the speedometer. You'll drive around in a sports car that goes pleasantly VROOOOM and the in-game speedometer will tell you that you're doing 150km/h or whatever, but if youwere to measure distance divided by time you'd see you are actually doing a sleepy 30-40 km/h, like a moped.

Wouldn't that mean that the player could thus potentially RUN faster than the car? 30km/h is the speed of a running man (Usain Bolt does 100m in 10 seconds), and I can't imagine a cybernetically augmented runner would be slower, given that vidya game characters already tend to have very high movement speeds relative to real humans.

Yep. With the "flash" cyberware (Sandevistan) it's trivial, though it only provides burst of superspeed.

There are also cybernetic legs that just give you a flat running speed increase, but no idea how fast they are because they take the same slot as the double-jump cyberware which is much too fun/useful to ever skip.

[rusty_shackleford]

One little trick Cyberpunk uses is the speedometer. You'll drive around in a sports car that goes pleasantly VROOOOM and the in-game speedometer will tell you that you're doing 150km/h or whatever, but if youwere to measure distance divided by time you'd see you are actually doing a sleepy 30-40 km/h, like a moped.

Granted, this is probably less for scale and more because realistic speeds would be impossible to control; most Cyberpunk players already slaughter a dozen civilians every time they drive to the corner store. But it definitely helps if your 5-minute cross-city drive feels fast because you think you drove like Verstappen and not because the city is 1/8th its real size.

I used the mod that removed most cars because I found driving to be annoying

[stormvermin]

One little trick Cyberpunk uses is the speedometer. You'll drive around in a sports car that goes pleasantly VROOOOM and the in-game speedometer will tell you that you're doing 150km/h or whatever, but if youwere to measure distance divided by time you'd see you are actually doing a sleepy 30-40 km/h, like a moped.

Granted, this is probably less for scale and more because realistic speeds would be impossible to control; most Cyberpunk players already slaughter a dozen civilians every time they drive to the corner store. But it definitely helps if your 5-minute cross-city drive feels fast because you think you drove like Verstappen and not because the city is 1/8th its real size.

There's a dash-jump technique that can make the player move faster than most of the in game vehicles. I can't remember if it requires the fortified ankles or not but it basically catapults you at dash speed. Also, I don't think the 30-40 km/h figure is entirely correct but I get your point; the in game speedometer is woefully inaccurate.

[Norfleet]

I used the mod that removed most cars because I found driving to be annoying

Are you SURE you're not a Europeon?

[Galdred]

This might be a bit extreme, but I really liked how Darklands did everything but combat through text and illustrations in cities. I realized I didn't miss walking through towns. I suppose slice compression (edit: sorry for the typo) can work if the represented settlement is not that large to begin with, but that would seldom be the case (it made sense in the Gothic series among others, for instance).

[rusty_shackleford]

This might be a bit extreme, but I really liked how Darklands did everything but combat through text and illustrations in cities. I realized I didn't miss walking through towns. I suppose slice can work if the represented settlement is not that large to begin with, but that would seldom be the case (it made sense in the Gothic series among others, for instance).

I think Gothic is probably one of the few rpgs that is actually to scale, or kinda close to it(OK it's probably a bit compressed).
It just happens to be a full scale of a small area.

Don't know if you were calling Gothic a "slice" style game or not, just didn't think of this before when discussing games that are to scale.

[Galdred]

This might be a bit extreme, but I really liked how Darklands did everything but combat through text and illustrations in cities. I realized I didn't miss walking through towns. I suppose slice can work if the represented settlement is not that large to begin with, but that would seldom be the case (it made sense in the Gothic series among others, for instance).

I think Gothic is probably one of the few rpgs that is actually to scale, or kinda close to it(OK it's probably a bit compressed).
It just happens to be a full scale of a small area.

Don't know if you were calling Gothic a "slice" style game or not, just didn't think of this before when discussing games that are to scale.

Right, indeed, I misstyped. I meant compressed, but it is indeed barely compressed in this case.

[Rand]

I think Gothic is probably one of the few rpgs that is actually to scale, or kinda close to it(OK it's probably a bit compressed).

The distance from the Old Camp castle fort to the Orcs' temple is less than a kilometer. I'd estimate about 500 meters. The only thing stopping you from walking there in a minute is the horde of orcs and orc dogs in the way.

[rusty_shackleford]

I think Gothic is probably one of the few rpgs that is actually to scale, or kinda close to it(OK it's probably a bit compressed).

The distance from the Old Camp castle fort to the Orcs' temple is less than a kilometer. I'd estimate about 500 meters. The only thing stopping you from walking there in a minute is the horde of orcs and orc dogs in the way.

Yea, that's why they're in the way. The area is meant to be small.

[Rand]

I think Gothic is probably one of the few rpgs that is actually to scale, or kinda close to it(OK it's probably a bit compressed).

The distance from the Old Camp castle fort to the Orcs' temple is less than a kilometer. I'd estimate about 500 meters. The only thing stopping you from walking there in a minute is the horde of orcs and orc dogs in the way.

Yea, that's why they're in the way. The area is meant to be small.

It's much too small for believability.
The orcs have no room for farms or livestock.
And they get nothing from outside.

It would be better if it was zoned. At least 3 zones, and probably more. Each at least the size of the current worldmap.

[rusty_shackleford]

It would be better if it was zoned. At least 3 zones, and probably more. Each at least the size of the current worldmap.

It being small is part of the story itself. It was never even meant to be as big as it is(that was a mistake from the mages), but it's still way too small for all the people caught there.
It's one of the few RPGs I can think of that actually has a to-scale(or nearly so) game world.

[stormvermin]

I think Gothic is probably one of the few rpgs that is actually to scale, or kinda close to it(OK it's probably a bit compressed).
It just happens to be a full scale of a small area.

Don't know if you were calling Gothic a "slice" style game or not, just didn't think of this before when discussing games that are to scale.

How about Ultima Underworld?

[Rand]

It being small is part of the story itself. It was never even meant to be as big as it is(that was a mistake from the mages), but it's still way too small for all the people caught there.
It's one of the few RPGs I can think of that actually has a to-scale(or nearly so) game world.

It's TOO small, even so.
Especially for that number of orcs without a sufficient food source.

[stormvermin]

It's not an RPG but Prey (Arkane edition) is also to scale or is almost at scale. The only things I can think of that are off are the crew quarters not being able to accommodate all station residents and the shuttleport/space shuttles being comically small and impractical. Apart from those, I think everything else lines up; the player can track down every station member save the ones that are off station, the entire station is modeled with the exterior being its own area, etc. There's stuff like maintenance tunnels besides the GUTS and other internal small areas that aren't included but I think that's acceptable. I'd be curious how well the dimensions of the interior cells match up with the exterior model of the station.

[rusty_shackleford]

Compressed map (Ultima games, Skyrim)

Perhaps I should have specified only the later Ultima games? I'm not quite sure that having separate map zoom levels is the same thing. In Ultima VII the world is decidedly smaller than it used to be because the towns are on the same map as the rest of the world.
I'm not necessarily against traveling on a world map.

[DemoGraph]

Sliced is definitely more modder-friendly. It's always off-putting to see a mod for Morrowind or Kenshi that adds a cozy little mansion with NPC population larger than faction capitol. And sliced (instanced) map is definitely easier for devs to expand.

OTOH, seamless world is much better for immersion, especially for medieval-style games. Invisible walls every 50 meters are ***.