Are Estus Flasks good design?

[Vergil]

estrus flask

[Brother Michael]

estrus flask

***

[KnightoftheWind]

I am an estus flask enjoyer. I even appreciate what Grim Dawn does with it's healing/mana system, instead of filling up your inventory with health potions, it works on a cooldown. So you can heal and get yourself back in the fight but you still have to be cautious, especially on Veteran difficulty.

[J1M]

uterus flask

[Rigwort]

If you don't want to make an interesting inventory system, then sure, I guess. Though I think Ocarina of Time already got the "limited consumable" pretty bang-on (do any notable games copy this?)

[wndrbr]

Are you aware of any non-dork souls/soulslop games that use a similar mechanic? What about with things other than healy potions?

witcher 3 restores all of your potions after a rest as long as you have a bottle of alcohol in your inventory (i.e. always), you don't need to re-brew them. This is, however, a bad thing, since withcer 3 is an open world game, and resource management mechanics should be encouraged in the open world games. Estus flask /vancian charges mechanis are only good in linear games where you can't rest or travel to a merchant for a restock at any time.

[Xenich]

Other than usage time and being able to be interrupted while used, how do estus flasks differ from just giving more HP?

Those are already pretty big differences, but another is that max health determines your threshold for being downed in one hit even if your total health is effectively higher because of estus.

If we are discussing being downed in one hit as a serious game mechanic in an action game things are already in the state known as dumpster fire.

Well, souls games are for the most part just 3D 80's arcade games with an "RPG" system to reduce difficulty. One shot mechanics are a core part of that style of game.

[Yankee Zulu]

You dont need them anyway when you have dodge roll. You can play these games with no armor and weapons with one leg on the piano and another in a buthtub.

[A Chinese opium den]

with one leg on the piano and another in a buthtub

What a strange phrase.

[Acrux]

with one leg on the piano and another in a buthtub

What a strange phrase.

Ancient Chinese idiom.

Actually, it's pretty ironic that the ***** calls himself "Yankee" and the American calls himself "Chinese".

[Vergil]

with one leg on the piano and another in a buthtub

What a strange phrase.

清冲

[A Chinese opium den]

with one leg on the piano and another in a buthtub

What a strange phrase.

Ancient Chinese idiom.

Actually, it's pretty ironic that the ***** calls himself "Yankee" and the American calls himself "Chinese".

Life moves in mysterious ways...

[J1M]

Those are already pretty big differences, but another is that max health determines your threshold for being downed in one hit even if your total health is effectively higher because of estus.

If we are discussing being downed in one hit as a serious game mechanic in an action game things are already in the state known as dumpster fire.

Well, souls games are for the most part just 3D 80's arcade games with an "RPG" system to reduce difficulty. One shot mechanics are a core part of that style of game.

Peak 2020s gameplay: DDR with a gamepad.

[Yankee Zulu]

I knew you gays will get excited by what I say.

[DemoGraph]

Other than usage time and being able to be interrupted while used, how do estus flasks differ from just giving more HP?

IIRC, there're weapons. whose damage is dependent on %HP remaining.

[WhiteShark]

清冲

I was excited to find that this is a real but extremely obscure word, and then disappointed when I realized why you actually posted it.

[Vergil]

清冲

I was excited to find that this is a real but extremely obscure word, and then disappointed when I realized why you actually posted it.

平陵叮咚

[The_Mask]

It's kind of sad that Dark Souls doesn't telegraph the fact that its stats are very D&D-like a lot better, because if people would understand that pointing VIT from 8 (or 9) to 18 (or 19) things would be a lot more clear.

You can't be one-shotted that easily if you actually invest souls to get to 18 VIT. Within reason. If you disrespect the game, you'll still get rekt.

[DDC]

I like them. They are actually sort of necessary in a game that doesn't have game overs or restart checkpoints. Otherwise, the player can blow through their entire stash of healing if they get stuck and and something takes too many attempts. Then it follows that they need to be buyable and pretty cheap (because who wants to grind healing items for a boss attempt), and from there it follows that the carrying inventory must be limited to keep the player from brute-forcing the boss with 100 cheap potions. Since they already need to be cheap but limited, why not just cut the BS out and have them recharge automatically, for free?

Traditional healing inventory systems in RPGs are operating from the assumption that the game state will only ever reflect a single boss attempt. If you blew 10 megalixers dying to the Ruby Weapon, the gameworld is reset as if the fight never happened and you get them all back. And this is how it should be--the inventory system is dictated by whether losses result in a "game over" and full reversion to the prior savestate. Demons Souls tried finite healing items pre estus flasks and it sort of worked, but only because the bosses weren't very hard and would normally be beat first or second try. It sort of forced the player to build into miracles a bit to avoid burning too many healing items on the trek through the levels (which were harder than the bosses). Not the best design because a bad player would probably totally deplete their items and get stuck without a reasonable way to get their playthrough back on track.

The bad game design is all the consumables in souls games. The game can't be designed around actually needing them because they are finite, whereas the number of attempts to clear an area is theoretically infinite. So they end up going mostly unused because the player will just gravitate to the renewable resource.

[Gastrick]

Having it give you a drinking-animation is quite good design; unlike Skyrim and BotW where you can pause the game whenever and drink as many healing items as you want with no penalties or risks.

Also that unlike many modern J-ARPGs, there's hard limits on how many you can carry. You can't just stock up a hundred cheap healing items at the store, and then have a massive health bar to beat any enemies in the game.

[Lhynn]

Its a good mechanic for the game it was designed for. So really it would work well for any mission based game. Since the stretch between bonfires is basically that.

Open world im not too sure, like in Elden Ring, couldnt say how well that mechanic worked there.

[rusty_shackleford]

Clair Obscur: Expedition 33, a turn-based game, uses Estus Flask design. Multiple, actually. You have in-combat consumables, and an out of combat full-heal consumable. All have limited charges(upgraded during game), and refresh when you rest at the not-campfire.
I actually liked it. It's definitely one way to make consumables feel more …impactful? or at least, make you want to use them. Brings back a level of attrition that has been missing from RPGs.

I like the concept of bonfires, too. But I think they could be improved rather than copying wholesale. Probably the same with flasks.
Thoughts?

[DagothGeas5]

Clair Obscur: Expedition 33, a turn-based game, uses Estus Flask design. Multiple, actually. You have in-combat consumables, and an out of combat full-heal consumable. All have limited charges(upgraded during game), and refresh when you rest at the not-campfire.
I actually liked it. It's definitely one way to make consumables feel more …impactful? or at least, make you want to use them. Brings back a level of attrition that has been missing from RPGs.

I like the concept of bonfires, too. But I think they could be improved rather than copying wholesale. Probably the same with flasks.
Thoughts?

I have not played this game (possibly yet, but who knows), but to me full health consumables and so many types of ways to heal take away from my "survival" playstyle and give challenges and combat less of an impact, but it comes down to how the combat itself is, I think. For example, in Wizardry VI I am liking how I at times end up being attacked when I did not rest/heal, or even during rest!, and forced into a fight while still wounded. This adds a sense of survival and pressure to the game that I think enhances how it feels like "enemy territory", so to speak. If I could heal to full health anywhere I pleased, and the charges of said item were too many with not enough of a challenge to counteract this, I can see it as taking away this feeling of "dread", so to speak, which I would miss But I would have to play the game to say for this one. Dark Souls 1 I felt was quite alright (though I play it very loosely) and Path of Exile 2 I feel gives too many charges instead, to give two examples that come to mind.

[Vergil]

Only if it's pee

[J1M]

Clair Obscur: Expedition 33, a turn-based game, uses Estus Flask design. Multiple, actually. You have in-combat consumables, and an out of combat full-heal consumable. All have limited charges(upgraded during game), and refresh when you rest at the not-campfire.
I actually liked it. It's definitely one way to make consumables feel more …impactful? or at least, make you want to use them. Brings back a level of attrition that has been missing from RPGs.

I like the concept of bonfires, too. But I think they could be improved rather than copying wholesale. Probably the same with flasks.
Thoughts?

I think giving Dark Souls credit for rechargeable consumables or set points in the world where you can rest is goofy.

Even Dungeons & Dragons Online had those 5 years earlier.

But I agree that having consumables that act similar to healing surges from 4e D&D is good. Without that the tension is lower because there is no partial failure or degrees of success for an encounter.

[rusty_shackleford]

Clair Obscur: Expedition 33, a turn-based game, uses Estus Flask design. Multiple, actually. You have in-combat consumables, and an out of combat full-heal consumable. All have limited charges(upgraded during game), and refresh when you rest at the not-campfire.
I actually liked it. It's definitely one way to make consumables feel more …impactful? or at least, make you want to use them. Brings back a level of attrition that has been missing from RPGs.

I like the concept of bonfires, too. But I think they could be improved rather than copying wholesale. Probably the same with flasks.
Thoughts?

I think giving Dark Souls credit for rechargeable consumables or set points in the world where you can rest is goofy.

Even Dungeons & Dragons Online had those 5 years earlier.

It heavily popularized the mechanic, I'm not going to pretend they pulled it from anywhere else. Especially when you can travel between not-campfires, resting respawns enemies, etc.,

DDO rest points are also different — and objectively better design because they're limited to one usage, but it's also very different type of game because it's mission-based. You can(and will) hit points where you cannot progress in DDO, tough cookie, leave the mission.

[rusty_shackleford]

DDO rest points are also different — and objectively better design because they're limited to one usage, but it's also very different type of game because it's mission-based. You can(and will) hit points where you cannot progress in DDO, tough cookie, leave the mission.

I can't really think of a good way to incorporate this into a more traditional CRPG structure. It's much closer to the new Shadowrun games where you go on missions, which does not facilitate something like say… Fallout or Arcanum design.

[TKVNC]

It's too arcade for an RPG, but Rollslopsouls isn't an RPG anyway.

[Cipher]

Its a good mechanic for the game it was designed for. So really it would work well for any mission based game. Since the stretch between bonfires is basically that.

Open world im not too sure, like in Elden Ring, couldnt say how well that mechanic worked there.

Armored Core 6 added estus flask and its ****. The idea of AC was to gauge your options and make the most with the cards you are dealt and with enough skill, quick thinking and moxie you get ahead and progress through the game.

You had to pay for expended ammo and repairs for any damage incurred to your mech. Sometimes that meant not going for targets or objectives not required to complete the mission. This new AC is literally Dork Souls but with mechs. The game even gives you an autosave and replenish before a boss so you can ram into the wall until you learn the pattern and then progress.

So, I disagree that the system works for "any" mission based game. And the worst part is that FromSoft are the original developers of Armored Core so is not like some wannabe devs soulyified Armored Core, they did it themselves.

[Cipher]

Clair Obscur: Expedition 33, a turn-based game, uses Estus Flask design. Multiple, actually. You have in-combat consumables, and an out of combat full-heal consumable. All have limited charges(upgraded during game), and refresh when you rest at the not-campfire.
I actually liked it. It's definitely one way to make consumables feel more …impactful? or at least, make you want to use them. Brings back a level of attrition that has been missing from RPGs.

I like the concept of bonfires, too. But I think they could be improved rather than copying wholesale. Probably the same with flasks.
Thoughts?

I prefer when RPGs have limited storage so you have to actually make decisions. But then, people complain they can't loot everything that is not bolted to the walls or the ground. Or that they dislike having to not be able to decide which loot to take.

I even prefer when there's a general inventory, but individual characters can only use items in their own "quick slots" or "belt" or "backpack. Funnily enough, both Lunar games did this and that feature was changed in the remasters and gamers are calling it a "quality of life".

No, it was to make sure you used those consumables when needed without having the ability to just abuse them. For example, one character would have a very limited number of slots for consumables, I think 4 or 5. So, if you wanted a remove poison antidote, 2 healing potions, 1 gem that restores MP and then one other thing that was it.

I like this. It makes sense that characters can only use stuff that they have in their person. Also, it makes it so there is decision making as you can't just buy 99 Hi-Potions and mostly trivialize anything that is not a one hit KO. But, it seems I am in the minority for that one.