D&D Edition Wars

[mercerxiv]

What do yall think about female heroes in fantasy?

solid 80% of tabletop products that have a character on the cover are female now, the propaganda is tiring and it all has an opposite effect on me

Yeah, I've been feeling it a bit, although I don't even play tabletop. I used to be fine/whatever with female led games way back when, but by today I think there's quite a bit of fatigue with that, even if it's "done well".

[WaterMage]

What do yall think about female heroes in fantasy?

solid 80% of tabletop products that have a character on the cover are female now, the propaganda is tiring and it all has an opposite effect on me

Nothing against female characters when they are done right. Eg -

► Show Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/jpqOhD1.png/img][img]https://i.imgur.com/YMVYu3l.png[/img]

My very first RPG. Two women on the cover

► Show Spoiler

https://i.imgur.com/CfdF4KK.png

What I hate is the typical unattractive, incompetent "mental illness haircut" woman that companies like to push in **** products like PF2e and D&D 4e/5e. Seriously, compare the woman that I posted here with the PHB for 5e. BTW, below, comparing the 5e PHB cover and the PF2e PHB cover with AD&D

► Show Spoiler

Some people say, "Don't judge a book by its cover." The cover is a way to promote the product. If the writer couldn't even make a proper attractive cover, can we expect him to be able to deliver a good story or rulebook? By merely looking the cover, is clear that AD&D > modern D&D. And that retroclones are more D&D than anything published by WoTC.

I used to be fine/whatever with female led games way back when, but by today I think there's quite a bit of fatigue with that, even if it's "done well".

Any case of it "done well"?

[UltraFan123]

At least back then, when females where shown in the cover the artists put the effort to make her attractive. Now the artists are purposely told to make the women in the cover as unattractive as possible.

So not even gooners are interested in it.

[mercerxiv]

Any case of it "done well"?

To be honest, none that come to mind. But again, I've not been playing TTRPG much, less so lately due to hardship and moving.
In video games.... I think the best we get these days is just games where you get to make your own character and there's no prescribed persona.
Someone may be able to pitch in on Stellar Blade protagonist, I'm unfamiliar.
Out of the stuff I play - none really. Most games I play are either not the type to have a protagonist (flight sims, strategy) or have uncharacterised player made protagonist (souls games, crpg, mmo). I guess FFXIV has some decent support cast female characters that are not cringe to listen to/look at, but so does it have obnoxious ones too. FFVI has pretty good portrayals, but is far from recent.
Yeah, nothing comes to mind at this time. I meant it more in a sense that "even if there was a game with a female cover art lead that's done well, I would still not be too keen". And given modernity - what are the odds it's neither mental health haircut or gooner bait?

[WaterMage]

Comparing edition art of some creatures.
Minotaur :


D&D Wizard. From TSR and from WoTC.

[mercerxiv]

Comparing edition art of some creatures.
Minotaur :


D&D Wizard. From TSR and from WoTC.

That 5e Minotaur(???).... is nauseating. Looks like some furry commission ripped straight off reddit.

[Tangerine]

Comparing edition art of some creatures.
Minotaur :


D&D Wizard. From TSR and from WoTC.

They hired the Pinkertons? Cool. I hope it was for union busting.

[Rand]

They hired the Pinkertons? Cool. I hope it was for union busting.

Nope. It was to go and try to defraud a guy to get Magic The Gathering cards he was legally sold that they decided they didn't want him to have.
They lied to and intimidated the owner. (He was the legal owner of those cards under the law).

► Show Spoiler

The Pinkertons and Wizards of the Coast: The 2023 MTG Leak Scandal

In April 2023, Wizards of the Coast (WotC), the publisher of Magic: The Gathering (MTG) and a subsidiary of Hasbro, made headlines for hiring the infamous Pinkerton agency—a private security and investigation firm with a notorious history of aggressive tactics—to retrieve leaked unreleased MTG cards from a YouTuber's home. The incident, which involved a surprise visit that reportedly terrified the creator's wife, sparked widespread backlash for being an over-the-top corporate power play. It wasn't even the first time WotC had reportedly used Pinkertons for similar enforcement. Here's the full story, broken down chronologically and with context.

Background: What Led to the Leak?

• March of the Machine: The Aftermath was an upcoming MTG expansion set, scheduled for official release on May 12, 2023. It was meant to be a surprise-packed conclusion to a major storyline, with strict embargoes to prevent spoilers from ruining the hype.
• On April 19–21, 2023, YouTuber Dan Cannon (channel: @oldschoolmtg) posted three unboxing videos revealing the set's contents early. The videos went viral, racking up views and doubling his channel's audience overnight.
• Cannon claimed he innocently bought the boxes for about $4,000 from an acquaintance at a game store, who mistakenly handed over Aftermath packs instead of the already-released March of the Machine set (the two had similar names). Cannon, a history buff and MTG fan, said he had no idea they were embargoed and wasn't trying to profit or sell them—he just wanted to review them.

The Pinkerton Visit: "Easy Way or the Hard Way"

• On the morning of April 22, 2023 (just one day after the last video), Cannon's wife answered a knock at their door to find two Pinkerton agents—described by Cannon as "big heavy-hitter guys"—demanding entry.

• According to Cannon's follow-up videos (since deleted but widely reported), the agents:
• Insisted on searching his home for any MTG cards, threatening jail time and fines up to $200,000 if he didn't comply.
• Took nearly two dozen boxes of the leaked product, including empty packaging and tokens—leaving him with nothing.
• Handed him a contact number for a WotC employee, explaining they were there to "investigate unauthorized distribution."

• Cannon called the number on the spot while the agents were inside. The WotC rep claimed they'd tried calling him the day before (via an unlisted number he ignored) and offered free replacement cards as compensation. Cannon pulled down his videos immediately, citing warnings about copyright infringement.
• The encounter left his wife in tears, with Cannon later joking darkly about it on stream: "As a history buff, I know all about the Pinkertons... this is wild."

WotC's Response and Confirmation

• Initially, WotC stayed silent, but after media inquiries from outlets like Polygon and io9/Gizmodo, they confirmed the Pinkertons' involvement on April 25, 2023.
• Official statement: They hired an "investigator" (not denying it was Pinkerton) as part of an probe into "the unauthorized distribution and disclosure of embargoed product," only after "several phone calls went unanswered." They emphasized: "Under no circumstances would we instruct any employee or contracted agency to intimidate an individual," and "strongly refute" claims of threats or overreach.
• WotC framed it as standard protocol for protecting IP, but critics called it intimidation theater—especially since Cannon wasn't a thief or scalper; it was a shipping mix-up.

Not the First Time: A Pattern of Pinkerton Use

• Reporting from io9 revealed this wasn't isolated. Anonymous sources claimed WotC had sent Pinkertons to fans' homes, businesses, and even game stores multiple times before to recover leaked or stolen MTG cards.
• Former Pinkerton employees were reportedly on Hasbro's payroll, blurring lines between the companies.
• The Pinkertons' dark legacy (think: union-busting strikes in the 1800s, Wild West detective work, and modern spying for Amazon) amplified the outrage. As one Reddit thread put it: "Why not just ask nicely? Instead, they send historical mercenaries."

[rusty_shackleford]

Comparing edition art of some creatures.
Minotaur :


D&D Wizard. From TSR and from WoTC.

one of my dream jobs is being a pinkerton

[Tweed]

Comparing edition art of some creatures.
Minotaur :


D&D Wizard. From TSR and from WoTC.

5th edition minotaur talks in a soto voce at least one octave higher than his natural voice and quotes ******* like Ginsberg, thinking that he's culturued.

[AmericanMonarchist]

3e refers to the player as "she" so it was broken from the start

True, actually this kind of resurrected an old random thought I had:
What do yall think about female heroes in fantasy? Not the she-hulk/"really a dude" type, but decently and above written/portrayed ones? Do you think a female wizard or fighter are acceptable? Can they be successful protagonists/participants in a campaign/story/game/you get it/etc.? Ofc going under assumption that none of the "modern audiences" and/or feminist writing is present. I'm not particularly well acquainted with pieces of media like that (I got the impression it's very common in anime, almost to the point of some 90% of the cast being female, but that's not necessarily what I'm talking about), most of the games that come to my mind are either more recent additions that don't qualify, games with chargen when the character is (let's be honest) a dude in writing regardless, and maybe something like old old Tomb Raider which I'm not so sure qualifies (although feel free to correct me).

I've not made up my mind on the topic yet, since I feel like I don't have enough examples. Going off some modern writing the answer is sure simple, but we all know it and it's a boring topic about a fleeting thing that will surely pass given time (smh passing something something...). Anyhow, I dunno what do I think about it in normal media with good writing since I barely seen any, so yall pitch in.

Human traits operates on a bell curve. Intelligence, strength, attractiveness, you name it. The average woman is weaker than the average man; but there exists women who are stronger than the average man. If we accept that the average man can take up a sword and become a warrior then it is not a stretch to accept the same with the occasional woman. However, the key thing is that it must be rare. I will accept the Lathgertha, Æthelflæd, and Boudicca who become the equivalent of max level fighters since they are 1 in 10,000,000 women who got the lucky throw of the genetic dice. They are the exception which proves the rule that women are not warriors. If a setting desires a plethora shield-maidens then they need to work hard to justify it. Is the society in such dire need of soldiers that they are willing to arm anyone? Is there some magic that makes these women more capable?

[asf]

women are usually better at whining

[Atlantico]

Why you would start at AC10 and go down as you become better armored while trying to roll a high number for success is an extremely peculiar choice by Gygax.

It is so simple and you never have to consult any tables.

Good grief

Your THAC0 12
Enamy AC 8

12 - 8 = 4

You hit at 4 and above on a d20.

Anyone needing a table to look up the result is a certified moron.

[Rand]

Why you would start at AC10 and go down as you become better armored while trying to roll a high number for success is an extremely peculiar choice by Gygax.

It is so simple and you never have to consult any tables.
Good grief
Your THAC0 12
Enamy AC 8
12 - 8 = 4
You hit at 4 and above on a d20.

Anyone needing a table to look up the result is a certified moron.

Gygax, you ******* moron, Atlantico says you don't need this table ******** at all!
What's wrong with you, putting this weak, useless garbage in your magnum opus, the 1st edition Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Dungeon Master's Guide?

► Show Spoiler

I mean, I know nobody had come up with THAC0 yet to try to simplify this nonsensical system into something barely functional, but come on, man! You should have known they would, eventually.
Ugh! And then you put them on the DM's screen, too? You fool!

► Show Spoiler

[Atlantico]

Gygax, you ******* moron, Atlantico says you don't need this table ******** at all!

I don't need the multiplication tables either, but they exist.

"Multiplication is stupid, you need to look the answer up in tables" - people on the internet in 2025

[Xenich]

They hired the Pinkertons? Cool. I hope it was for union busting.

Nope. It was to go and try to defraud a guy to get Magic The Gathering cards he was legally sold that they decided they didn't want him to have.
They lied to and intimidated the owner. (He was the legal owner of those cards under the law).

► Show Spoiler

The Pinkertons and Wizards of the Coast: The 2023 MTG Leak Scandal

In April 2023, Wizards of the Coast (WotC), the publisher of Magic: The Gathering (MTG) and a subsidiary of Hasbro, made headlines for hiring the infamous Pinkerton agency—a private security and investigation firm with a notorious history of aggressive tactics—to retrieve leaked unreleased MTG cards from a YouTuber's home. The incident, which involved a surprise visit that reportedly terrified the creator's wife, sparked widespread backlash for being an over-the-top corporate power play. It wasn't even the first time WotC had reportedly used Pinkertons for similar enforcement. Here's the full story, broken down chronologically and with context.

Background: What Led to the Leak?

• March of the Machine: The Aftermath was an upcoming MTG expansion set, scheduled for official release on May 12, 2023. It was meant to be a surprise-packed conclusion to a major storyline, with strict embargoes to prevent spoilers from ruining the hype.
• On April 19–21, 2023, YouTuber Dan Cannon (channel: @oldschoolmtg) posted three unboxing videos revealing the set's contents early. The videos went viral, racking up views and doubling his channel's audience overnight.
• Cannon claimed he innocently bought the boxes for about $4,000 from an acquaintance at a game store, who mistakenly handed over Aftermath packs instead of the already-released March of the Machine set (the two had similar names). Cannon, a history buff and MTG fan, said he had no idea they were embargoed and wasn't trying to profit or sell them—he just wanted to review them.

The Pinkerton Visit: "Easy Way or the Hard Way"

• On the morning of April 22, 2023 (just one day after the last video), Cannon's wife answered a knock at their door to find two Pinkerton agents—described by Cannon as "big heavy-hitter guys"—demanding entry.

• According to Cannon's follow-up videos (since deleted but widely reported), the agents:
• Insisted on searching his home for any MTG cards, threatening jail time and fines up to $200,000 if he didn't comply.
• Took nearly two dozen boxes of the leaked product, including empty packaging and tokens—leaving him with nothing.
• Handed him a contact number for a WotC employee, explaining they were there to "investigate unauthorized distribution."

• Cannon called the number on the spot while the agents were inside. The WotC rep claimed they'd tried calling him the day before (via an unlisted number he ignored) and offered free replacement cards as compensation. Cannon pulled down his videos immediately, citing warnings about copyright infringement.
• The encounter left his wife in tears, with Cannon later joking darkly about it on stream: "As a history buff, I know all about the Pinkertons... this is wild."

WotC's Response and Confirmation

• Initially, WotC stayed silent, but after media inquiries from outlets like Polygon and io9/Gizmodo, they confirmed the Pinkertons' involvement on April 25, 2023.
• Official statement: They hired an "investigator" (not denying it was Pinkerton) as part of an probe into "the unauthorized distribution and disclosure of embargoed product," only after "several phone calls went unanswered." They emphasized: "Under no circumstances would we instruct any employee or contracted agency to intimidate an individual," and "strongly refute" claims of threats or overreach.
• WotC framed it as standard protocol for protecting IP, but critics called it intimidation theater—especially since Cannon wasn't a thief or scalper; it was a shipping mix-up.

Not the First Time: A Pattern of Pinkerton Use

• Reporting from io9 revealed this wasn't isolated. Anonymous sources claimed WotC had sent Pinkertons to fans' homes, businesses, and even game stores multiple times before to recover leaked or stolen MTG cards.
• Former Pinkerton employees were reportedly on Hasbro's payroll, blurring lines between the companies.
• The Pinkertons' dark legacy (think: union-busting strikes in the 1800s, Wild West detective work, and modern spying for Amazon) amplified the outrage. As one Reddit thread put it: "Why not just ask nicely? Instead, they send historical mercenaries."

It never occurred to them to shut the door and call the cops?

[asf]

Gygax, you ******* moron, Atlantico says you don't need this table ******** at all!

I don't need the multiplication tables either, but they exist.

"Multiplication is stupid, you need to look the answer up in tables ask chatgpt" - people on the internet in 2025

zoomers are all doomed

[mercerxiv]

3e refers to the player as "she" so it was broken from the start

True, actually this kind of resurrected an old random thought I had:
What do yall think about female heroes in fantasy? Not the she-hulk/"really a dude" type, but decently and above written/portrayed ones? Do you think a female wizard or fighter are acceptable? Can they be successful protagonists/participants in a campaign/story/game/you get it/etc.? Ofc going under assumption that none of the "modern audiences" and/or feminist writing is present. I'm not particularly well acquainted with pieces of media like that (I got the impression it's very common in anime, almost to the point of some 90% of the cast being female, but that's not necessarily what I'm talking about), most of the games that come to my mind are either more recent additions that don't qualify, games with chargen when the character is (let's be honest) a dude in writing regardless, and maybe something like old old Tomb Raider which I'm not so sure qualifies (although feel free to correct me).

I've not made up my mind on the topic yet, since I feel like I don't have enough examples. Going off some modern writing the answer is sure simple, but we all know it and it's a boring topic about a fleeting thing that will surely pass given time (smh passing something something...). Anyhow, I dunno what do I think about it in normal media with good writing since I barely seen any, so yall pitch in.

Human traits operates on a bell curve. Intelligence, strength, attractiveness, you name it. The average woman is weaker than the average man; but there exists women who are stronger than the average man. If we accept that the average man can take up a sword and become a warrior then it is not a stretch to accept the same with the occasional woman. However, the key thing is that it must be rare. I will accept the Lathgertha, Æthelflæd, and Boudicca who become the equivalent of max level fighters since they are 1 in 10,000,000 women who got the lucky throw of the genetic dice. They are the exception which proves the rule that women are not warriors. If a setting desires a plethora shield-maidens then they need to work hard to justify it. Is the society in such dire need of soldiers that they are willing to arm anyone? Is there some magic that makes these women more capable?

And I think this is solved rather easily by the way old stat spreads were - female characters get a -x to strength and +x to charisma (or something) compared to males of the same race. It did exactly that - with that stat reallocation you are statistically less likely to be as good of a fighter as a male, and can never be as good of a fighter as the best male fighter (both are reflective of reality). For a middling fighter then a man needs to roll just about a 16 in cumulative STR, while a woman would need a 16+x to be comparable, and assuming a limit (for example 1d20, or 2d10, or whatever else) that would mean a female character always has a ceiling that is lower by x than man (which once again makes perfect sense). And with a system like that I imagine the problem would more or less address itself - you can play as many woman fighters as you want but more of them will be bad at their job simply due to inferior bell curve for stats that matter, which will result in more of them getting rather dead in fights sooner or later. Adjusting how large x also provides pretty good control over plausibility - make at 2 and it's a somewhat soft difference, make it a 4 or a 6 and now you have to stop and think if you really want to play that character.

That is ofc assuming rational GMs and certain standards of rulekeeping, but even if the players are allowed unlimited rerolls/point buys, they would still run against the hard Max-X ceiling which would prevent equality. Unless ofc they just homebrew the rules, but at that point it's really their own business that they can sort out within their own group, rather than the norm.

Using your army example - this still works just fine. Assuming middling man would have around 12-14 STR (and an exceptional man 16-18/00 STR), your female recruit army would then sit at something like 8-12 STR, which is fairly reasonable IMO. Can they still be a threat in an asymmetrical encounter? Sure. But in a XvX fight against army of men that will be a walloping, even though they may get some hits due to dice rng.

[mercerxiv]

Why you would start at AC10 and go down as you become better armored while trying to roll a high number for success is an extremely peculiar choice by Gygax.

It is so simple and you never have to consult any tables.

Good grief

Your THAC0 12
Enamy AC 8

12 - 8 = 4

You hit at 4 and above on a d20.

Anyone needing a table to look up the result is a certified moron.

This. Never understood what's the bloody big deal with people crying rivers over THAC0. You really don't need a table for this ****, and the only time the math gets harder is if you have magical effects like +X weapons or buffs. With a +3 sword it would simply be: roll above your THAC0 - 3 - enemy AC, or better yet since it won't change unless you level up/get a new sword you just pre-calculate your THAC0 for the weapon (so let's say if you are a lvl 10 Warrior class with 18/00 STR: 11-3-3=5, so THAC0 of 5 unless you jump to like 21 STR suddenly, lose your weapon, or level up) and just keep doing THAC0 - enemy AC = roll that and above.

I guess if you make an argument that subtraction is harder than addition, you can then make an argument that this is harder too. But I would not agree. Now we just have: roll above enemy AC - added up attack score. Or as most people do it: roll, then add your attack, and then compare it to enemy AC. Which is more or less the same ****? You will always have your attack score pre-calculated (be that THAC0 or Attack), and you will always need to compare it to enemy AC together with your roll.

I think the biggest reason some people complain really is the conditioning that "bigger number=better" and therefore falling into stupor when it turns out that less AC is better.

[DemoGraph]

I think the biggest reason some people complain really is the conditioning that "bigger number=better" and therefore falling into stupor when it turns out that less AC is better.

It's not about stupidity. It's about unnecessary fiddling. Realistically speaking, the average adult group has a session every 1-3 weeks, and maybe slightly drunk. The more exceptions you expect your players to remember, the worse is your game.
I've seen physics PhD say **** it to obtuse mechanics of Oath, even though the guy is capable of managing much more complex problems at work.

[Atlantico]

It's not about stupidity. It's about unnecessary fiddling.

So: autism.

I've heard this argument before. Why does a +3 sword *subtract* 3 from the THAC0. ***autistic screeches***

Also: don't play while drinking alcohol. What the **** are you doing with your life.

[Rand]

They hired the Pinkertons? Cool. I hope it was for union busting.

Nope. It was to go and try to defraud a guy to get Magic The Gathering cards he was legally sold that they decided they didn't want him to have.
They lied to and intimidated the owner. (He was the legal owner of those cards under the law).

► Show Spoiler

The Pinkertons and Wizards of the Coast: The 2023 MTG Leak Scandal

In April 2023, Wizards of the Coast (WotC), the publisher of Magic: The Gathering (MTG) and a subsidiary of Hasbro, made headlines for hiring the infamous Pinkerton agency—a private security and investigation firm with a notorious history of aggressive tactics—to retrieve leaked unreleased MTG cards from a YouTuber's home. The incident, which involved a surprise visit that reportedly terrified the creator's wife, sparked widespread backlash for being an over-the-top corporate power play. It wasn't even the first time WotC had reportedly used Pinkertons for similar enforcement. Here's the full story, broken down chronologically and with context.

Background: What Led to the Leak?

• March of the Machine: The Aftermath was an upcoming MTG expansion set, scheduled for official release on May 12, 2023. It was meant to be a surprise-packed conclusion to a major storyline, with strict embargoes to prevent spoilers from ruining the hype.
• On April 19–21, 2023, YouTuber Dan Cannon (channel: @oldschoolmtg) posted three unboxing videos revealing the set's contents early. The videos went viral, racking up views and doubling his channel's audience overnight.
• Cannon claimed he innocently bought the boxes for about $4,000 from an acquaintance at a game store, who mistakenly handed over Aftermath packs instead of the already-released March of the Machine set (the two had similar names). Cannon, a history buff and MTG fan, said he had no idea they were embargoed and wasn't trying to profit or sell them—he just wanted to review them.

The Pinkerton Visit: "Easy Way or the Hard Way"

• On the morning of April 22, 2023 (just one day after the last video), Cannon's wife answered a knock at their door to find two Pinkerton agents—described by Cannon as "big heavy-hitter guys"—demanding entry.

• According to Cannon's follow-up videos (since deleted but widely reported), the agents:
• Insisted on searching his home for any MTG cards, threatening jail time and fines up to $200,000 if he didn't comply.
• Took nearly two dozen boxes of the leaked product, including empty packaging and tokens—leaving him with nothing.
• Handed him a contact number for a WotC employee, explaining they were there to "investigate unauthorized distribution."

• Cannon called the number on the spot while the agents were inside. The WotC rep claimed they'd tried calling him the day before (via an unlisted number he ignored) and offered free replacement cards as compensation. Cannon pulled down his videos immediately, citing warnings about copyright infringement.
• The encounter left his wife in tears, with Cannon later joking darkly about it on stream: "As a history buff, I know all about the Pinkertons... this is wild."

WotC's Response and Confirmation

• Initially, WotC stayed silent, but after media inquiries from outlets like Polygon and io9/Gizmodo, they confirmed the Pinkertons' involvement on April 25, 2023.
• Official statement: They hired an "investigator" (not denying it was Pinkerton) as part of an probe into "the unauthorized distribution and disclosure of embargoed product," only after "several phone calls went unanswered." They emphasized: "Under no circumstances would we instruct any employee or contracted agency to intimidate an individual," and "strongly refute" claims of threats or overreach.
• WotC framed it as standard protocol for protecting IP, but critics called it intimidation theater—especially since Cannon wasn't a thief or scalper; it was a shipping mix-up.

Not the First Time: A Pattern of Pinkerton Use

• Reporting from io9 revealed this wasn't isolated. Anonymous sources claimed WotC had sent Pinkertons to fans' homes, businesses, and even game stores multiple times before to recover leaked or stolen MTG cards.
• Former Pinkerton employees were reportedly on Hasbro's payroll, blurring lines between the companies.
• The Pinkertons' dark legacy (think: union-busting strikes in the 1800s, Wild West detective work, and modern spying for Amazon) amplified the outrage. As one Reddit thread put it: "Why not just ask nicely? Instead, they send historical mercenaries."

It never occurred to them to shut the door and call the cops?

Strangely not. Even gamer-adjacent normiefags are panicky idiots, it seems.

[asf]

is that in murica, it is a wonder they werent shot

[Rand]

Okay, since there are too many posters who clearly can't process basic information, let me try to simplify the point.

• There was no THAC0 for over 15 years of the game, just Gygax's tables
• The tables are badly designed, with counterintuitive mechanics
• THAC0 was made to paper over this stupid, unnecessary problem
• To get it to use the dumb reference numbers and provide the same outcome, you have to do more complex math than what a quick, common roll should entail

Ascending AC as an increase to a base difficulty, as first introduced in house rules in the 80s, and finally officially in the 1990s 3rd edition, makes the simple system that should have been obvious from the start.

I think the biggest reason some people complain really is the conditioning that "bigger number=better" and therefore falling into stupor when it turns out that less AC is better.

Consistency helps. They're called bonuses to hit. Weapons have "plusses". You want to roll high on the D20 and you add all the bonuses. Armor has "plusses" that increase defense, but they lower a reference number from a related table. WTF?
Why design a system that increases numbers with bonuses on one side, but decreases numbers with bonuses on the other?

To be clear, this isn't THAC0's fault. It's inherited the idiocy of the conception of Gygax's tables where, for no good reason, you subtract the armor class from the target number, where it starts at a presumptive 20 .

To help you understand: the ACs start at 10 because that is the base target number (or DC) that an average basic warrior needs to roll "to hit" someone without any defenses at all.
Nobody has ever made a coherent explanation why Gygax decided the next armor class should be 9, instead of 11, despite the fact that the next harder to hit armor class' to-hit number is... 11.
(A related issue is why a trained average warrior misses easy attacks for a full minute 45% of the time, and whiffs for three minutes straight almost 10% of the time...)

But there's a million rabbit-holes of D&D's baffling design that we can go down.
Here's a related one for you.
A stunned sheep, an unarmored peasant, and an equally unarmored elite warrior with decades of martial training and experience are all equally hard to hit for the militia rookie: 55%
All the training in the world doesn't make the slightest difference to your defense ability. Even if the warrior had a shield, it would only reduce the chance he was hit from 55% to 50%. That's NOT how real shields work, statistically.
The only difference is how many times each must be hit.
The peasant takes from one to four hits, up to eight if REALLY tough.
The sheep is from one to two. Up to four for the toughest sheep in the land.
The warrior, however, even if he has no bonuses from constitution, takes from about 12 to 90 hits to take down.
So being good at defending makes you somehow literally tougher, and by up to an order of magnitude (x10) or more.
And remember, a melee round is a minute.
"I've been stabbing this guy for an hour and a half and he WON'T DIE!"

[J1M]

Maybe he really liked the number 10. Or was trying to make it consistent with the way attributes baseline at 10 and then have modifiers applied.

[Kalarion]

JD did some research on this for me when I was asking him about it awhile back, and he posits that the way AC originally worked was a stayover from Prussian wargames, where AC was used to directly represent what needed to be rolled on a d10 to hit. Hence why it started at 10 and went down (10 or lower to hit unarmored infantry, down to a 1 to hit the most mobile and armored troops).

[Rand]

JD did some research on this for me when I was asking him about it awhile back, and he posits that the way AC originally worked was a stayover from Prussian wargames, where AC was used to directly represent what needed to be rolled on a d10 to hit. Hence why it started at 10 and went down (10 or lower to hit unarmored infantry, down to a 1 to hit the most mobile and armored troops).

That makes some sense on the face of it.

STILL it doesn't explain Gygax making the kludgy d20 tables based off of it as a base input.
He actually did it harder than he needed to and it requires reinterpreting armor class numbers because in D&D high rolls hit more.
In that Prussian system, it's lower rolls that hit more.

[Cedric]

I like descending AC, weird tables and THAC0 because it helped keep undesirables from playing these games.

Look at what making it more accessible has done.

[Cedric]

It is so simple and you never have to consult any tables.

Good grief

Your THAC0 12
Enamy AC 8

12 - 8 = 4

You hit at 4 and above on a d20.

Anyone needing a table to look up the result is a certified moron.

I've tried explaining this to zoomers before and they told me this explanation isn't good because subtraction is much harder to do than addition.

Yes really.

[Rand]

I like descending AC, weird tables and THAC0 because it helped keep undesirables from playing these games.

Look at what making it more accessible has done.

There were always ******* and storyfags.
I mean, there is Ed Greenwood... what other evidence do you need?

It's who owns it and who they market it to.
Anyone decent would have shut down Critical Role instantaneously by sending a cease and desist.