Armor types are a failed RPG concept

[Niggler]

I would like to be a smug person and state that this discussion does not affect Monks.

And it feels good.

Monks are fun

okay, so to you gay = fun

revealing

I enjoy punching the **** outta things with comparable damage to a paladin + being able to jump everywhere + having awesome dialogue. I bet you play sorlock lmao.

[maidenhaver]

More to the concept of armor, one of the best worldbuilding moments in Elder Scrolls was discovering the advanced, magical armor of the legendary Snow Prince, devil of the North, harrier of mankind, was just steel plate. Steel was magic, metalurgy was arcane. By the time you discover his tomb, it isn't even worth the encumbrance. Even low fantasy games fall into the itemization pit, when armor should be rarer.

[DemoGraph]

Tolkine was an Early Middle-Ages scholar, and very much liked Beowulf, and the Anglo-Saxons, so I'd very much assume mail armour was what he had in mind.

Plate cuirasses are still possible (and likely).
I had an impression (maybe movie-derived) that orcs tended to wear cuirasses on top of leather armor.

I wouldn't have thought so, the Early Middle-Ages, the 4th Century AD (give or take) till the 11th Century AD was dominated by mail armour. Breastplates only began to appear in the 13th Century AD. From what I understand Tolkien was aiming for the haubergeon, or byrnie styled armour, it may be possible to consider lamellar, such that the Eastern Romans, or late Western Romans used, but plate I would discount.

Dunno, cuirasses definitely predate chainmail. I see no reason for them to not exist in the setting.

[TKVNC]

Plate cuirasses are still possible (and likely).
I had an impression (maybe movie-derived) that orcs tended to wear cuirasses on top of leather armor.

I wouldn't have thought so, the Early Middle-Ages, the 4th Century AD (give or take) till the 11th Century AD was dominated by mail armour. Breastplates only began to appear in the 13th Century AD. From what I understand Tolkien was aiming for the haubergeon, or byrnie styled armour, it may be possible to consider lamellar, such that the Eastern Romans, or late Western Romans used, but plate I would discount.

Dunno, cuirasses definitely predate chainmail. I see no reason for them to not exist in the setting.

Yes, that's fine. But in the context of Early Middle Ages, it is analogous to going to war with a battle rifle wearing a set of mail armour. They predate mail, but they are not contemporaneous.

[Havitner]

As I've concluded prior, HP is your luck meter and therefore you aren't actually getting hit until you die

The HP system clearly models the idea that higher level characters can fight on with far more severe injuries.

A cracked rib would incapacitate a level 1 warrior, but a level 5 warrior can keep going.

That's why a cure light wounds spell can heal low level characters but not high level characters back to full in a single casting. 5/100 HP represents far more serious injuries than 5/10 HP. The former is 95 points below full health (and close to death/incapacitation), while the latter is only 5 points below full health (but close to death/incapacitation).

[J1M]

As I've concluded prior, HP is your luck meter and therefore you aren't actually getting hit until you die

The HP system clearly models the idea that higher level characters can fight on with far more severe injuries.

A cracked rib would incapacitate a level 1 warrior, but a level 5 warrior can keep going.

That's why a cure light wounds spell can heal low level characters but not high level characters back to full in a single casting. 5/100 HP represents far more serious injuries than 5/10 HP. The former is 95 points below full health (and close to death/incapacitation), while the latter is only 5 points below full health (but close to death/incapacitation).

I don't agree that hit points = meat and neither does the definition in the books.

[Stack of Turtles]

In D&D 6e, hit points will be defined as your chances of being clocked.

[Havitner]

As I've concluded prior, HP is your luck meter and therefore you aren't actually getting hit until you die

The HP system clearly models the idea that higher level characters can fight on with far more severe injuries.

A cracked rib would incapacitate a level 1 warrior, but a level 5 warrior can keep going.

That's why a cure light wounds spell can heal low level characters but not high level characters back to full in a single casting. 5/100 HP represents far more serious injuries than 5/10 HP. The former is 95 points below full health (and close to death/incapacitation), while the latter is only 5 points below full health (but close to death/incapacitation).

I don't agree that hit points = meat and neither does the definition in the books.

How do you lose hit points? By taking damage.

[J1M]

The HP system clearly models the idea that higher level characters can fight on with far more severe injuries.

A cracked rib would incapacitate a level 1 warrior, but a level 5 warrior can keep going.

That's why a cure light wounds spell can heal low level characters but not high level characters back to full in a single casting. 5/100 HP represents far more serious injuries than 5/10 HP. The former is 95 points below full health (and close to death/incapacitation), while the latter is only 5 points below full health (but close to death/incapacitation).

I don't agree that hit points = meat and neither does the definition in the books.

How do you lose hit points? By taking damage.

That viewpoint falls apart if you think about it a bit.

For example, what is psychic damage?
How does one fully repair their meat via a non-magical short rest?

[rusty_shackleford]

The HP system clearly models the idea that higher level characters can fight on with far more severe injuries.

A cracked rib would incapacitate a level 1 warrior, but a level 5 warrior can keep going.

That's why a cure light wounds spell can heal low level characters but not high level characters back to full in a single casting. 5/100 HP represents far more serious injuries than 5/10 HP. The former is 95 points below full health (and close to death/incapacitation), while the latter is only 5 points below full health (but close to death/incapacitation).

I don't agree that hit points = meat and neither does the definition in the books.

How do you lose hit points? By taking damage.

Damage to your luck.

[Havitner]

For example, what is psychic damage?

Brain damage. Why do you think psykers and their victims keep getting those nosebleeds?

How does one fully repair their meat via a non-magical short rest?

Natural injury recovery is faster than expected for gameplay reasons.

[Sinfield]

I don't agree that hit points = meat and neither does the definition in the books.

How do you lose hit points? By taking damage.

That viewpoint falls apart if you think about it a bit.

For example, what is psychic damage?
How does one fully repair their meat via a non-magical short rest?

Wait, what do you think HP is?

[J1M]

For example, what is psychic damage?

Brain damage. Why do you think psykers and their victims keep getting those nosebleeds?

How does one fully repair their meat via a non-magical short rest?

Natural injury recovery is faster than expected for gameplay reasons.

You heal brain damage with a short rest? So a short rest makes you smarter?

[J1M]

How do you lose hit points? By taking damage.

That viewpoint falls apart if you think about it a bit.

For example, what is psychic damage?
How does one fully repair their meat via a non-magical short rest?

Wait, what do you think HP is?

This definition from the D&D Player's Handbook is close enough. I guess most people don't read past the classes section?

Over the course of a battle, you take damage from
attacks. Hit points (hp) measure your ability to stand
up to punishment, turn deadly strikes into glancing
blows, and stay on your feet throughout a battle. Hit
points represent more than physical endurance. They
represent your character’s skill, luck, and resolve—all
the factors that combine to help you stay alive in a
combat situation.

[rusty_shackleford]

therefore, vampires drain luck (luckpires)

[J1M]

therefore, vampires drain luck (luckpires)

And also explains why D&D vampires need to sleep in lucky soil from their grave.

[Havitner]

For example, what is psychic damage?

Brain damage. Why do you think psykers and their victims keep getting those nosebleeds?

How does one fully repair their meat via a non-magical short rest?

Natural injury recovery is faster than expected for gameplay reasons.

You heal brain damage with a short rest? So a short rest makes you smarter?

How does one fully repair their meat via a non-magical short rest?

Natural injury recovery is faster than expected for gameplay reasons.

[Rand]

I enjoy punching the **** outta things with comparable damage to a paladin + being able to jump everywhere + having awesome dialogue. I bet you play sorlock lmao.

That monk **** is so gay It makes Baldur's Gate 3 companions look like Baldur's Gate companions.

[Rand]

The original natural healing rate, as written by Gygax, is 1hp per full day of rest.


What he thought about HP:

► Show Spoiler

[Brother Michael]

They represent more than physical endurance. Hence they include physical injuries.

[WhiteShark]

It's a dumb abstraction that conflicts with the actual mechanics. HP is ultimately more plausible as meat points than luck points. Yes, it means a high level character can be stabbed several times and live, but Gygax himself wrote that high level characters have divine aid, and that's easier to accept than the mental contortions necessary to interpret HP any other way.

[rusty_shackleford]

Problem with HP is as designed it really was simulating multiple things which can and typically are now simulated individually in computer RPGs.

[Tweed]

Didn't Examina do full body armor simulation?

[Atlantico]

or like D&D, make light armor superior to heavy armor due to fewer drawbacks and superior scaling

There have been so many D&D editions, but the one's I played didn't have "light/medium/heavy" armor.

Just types of armor, i.e. studded leather armor, plate mail, ring mail, etc. Type could affect AC against certain weapon types and some armor would not allow DEX bonuses, but that's about it. Seemed to work fine IIRC

[Norfleet]

I like systems where lighter armor is avoidance based (harder to hit) and heavier armor is damage reduction based (easier to hit, harder to damage).

The reality: Heavy armor has superior combat performance offers no real penalties to combat mobility or avoidance over light armor. You can run, jump, dodge, and generally fight just as well in heavy armor, if not better, than lighter armor.

So what are the advantages of light armor?

1. Cost. Something like a gambeson is simply much cheaper to manufacture when you need to equip an entire army.

2. Ease of use: You can put it on unassisted. Knights had squires to help them get dressed in their armor. It took forever.

3. Comfort. Walking around in your metal suit is hot and uncomfortable. You can't scratch anything that itches. Can you imagine that horrible back itch and being unable to scratch it? For this reason, knights only put on their full plate for special occasions like going into battle or a tournament or a parade. Combine with point 2, and you see how full plate armor is manifestly unsuitable for an adventureman, who operates without a squire to help him dress for battle, nor an expectation of a moment of battle, as he can be attacked at any time. A dragon will not wait 20 minutes for you to get dressed.

In a vidya game, of course, you don't see any of this come into play. Thus there are arbitrary, unrealistic rules to try to buff "light" and "medium" armor into some kind of parity that doesn't exist. Plate armor is just BETTER at facing any kind of threat profile involving humanoids trying to stab you with sharp things.

Also, leather armor isn't real. People did not make suits of "leather armor". If you wanted "light armor", you just wore the linen gambeson you were going to be using as underarmor for your "medium" and "heavy" armor. Leather was just used as a backing material for other armoring materials. "Leather armor" is basically just wearing a fashionable motorcycle jacket into battle. The protection isn't completely nonexistent, but it's not really armor.

[fork]

Didn't Examina do full body armor simulation?

Who cares what Exanima does?
Absolute bottom of the barrel **** scam.
I pirated that crap and feel ripped off.

[TKVNC]

It took forever.

Not necessarily true. Again, refer to Rusty's view on internet overcorrection. It depends on time period, and type of armour. It could be as quickly as a few minutes up to 10 minutes at the extreme end.

Also, leather armor isn't real.

This is not also true. Leather has been used for armour in history. Boiled leather armour was even fashioned into hard plates much like metal. It's also true that leather boots, gloves, and jackets such as buffcoats were used at various times. Do they perform as well as metal? No, not entirely - are they better than no armour? Absolutely.

[Norfleet]

Not necessarily true. Again, refer to Rusty's view on internet overcorrection. It depends on time period, and type of armour. It could be as quickly as a few minutes up to 10 minutes at the extreme end.

Considering that a combat round is 6 seconds, "a few minutes" is essentially forever. Think about how long it takes an armored sportsball player to get all his gear on. Now imagine that you're doing that on the approximately zero notice of a monster attack. No, you need something that's tolerable to wear constantly as your baseline, and the fancy stuff is your wargear, not your "normal adventureman armor".

[TKVNC]

Not necessarily true. Again, refer to Rusty's view on internet overcorrection. It depends on time period, and type of armour. It could be as quickly as a few minutes up to 10 minutes at the extreme end.

Considering that a combat round is 6 seconds, "a few minutes" is essentially forever. Think about how long it takes an armored sportsball player to get all his gear on. Now imagine that you're doing that on the approximately zero notice of a monster attack. No, you need something that's tolerable to wear constantly as your baseline, and the fancy stuff is your wargear, not your "normal adventureman armor".

It's naturally going to be different if you're just roaming about and a monster attacks you, but if you're actively looking for danger, you'll be wearing your armour. If you're surprised, you're probably going to die. That was true in history, and it's also true in the modern world.

Will you be wearing less than your full harness if you're intending to be travelling? Sure - but likewise, you won't be rushing to get it on, historically speaking it would be in your baggage train (in this case, on, or in your horses packs) - with results not too dissimilar to Crécy. If you're in fortifications, such as a walled town, or a castle, you rush into cover, then equip yourself accordingly. Very few threats short of a dragon would properly concern you from behind such defences - however, if it is something such a dragon that could cause you grief inside a fortress, what armour you have is truly the least of your worries.

[Norfleet]

It's naturally going to be different if you're just roaming about and a monster attacks you, but if you're actively looking for danger, you'll be wearing your armour. If you're surprised, you're probably going to die. That was true in history, and it's also true in the modern world.

But the thing is, a murderhobo is ALWAYS looking for danger. When your typical murderhobo adventurer is descending into the bowels of the monster-infested depths and roaming around in the caves for days at a time, he does not get downtime to prep for battle. Full plate is thus rather inconvenient for the job, a point consistently overlooked.

Very few threats short of a dragon would properly concern you from behind such defences - however, if it is something such a dragon that could cause you grief inside a fortress, what armour you have is truly the least of your worries.

There's a pretty large number of threat profiles that a murderhobo adventureman faces. Many of these do NOT involve humanoids trying to stab you with sharp objects. That is, unfortunately, another problem with medieval heavy armor: It's very optimized for this specific threat environment, which is not the same as the environment of a murderhobo. However, none of these issues are actually covered in the rulesets, which tend to be bland and non-realistic things like "heavy armor nukes your speed and evasion", as rules for extended discomfort don't exist.