Loghain was the good guy, actually.

[fkirenicus]

Loghain being right about Ostagar doesn't make up for him being so wrong about everything else afterwards.

The guy sends people to kill you, even hiring that *** Zevran.

Well, to be fair, the schmuck who did that was actually Howe. Though Loghain did not protest it, true

[Roguey]

Loghain being right about Ostagar doesn't make up for him being so wrong about everything else afterwards.

The guy sends people to kill you, even hiring that *** Zevran.

Well, to be fair, the schmuck who did that was actually Howe. Though Loghain did not protest it, true

Zevran: So, err...is it Lord Loghain?
Loghain: I am no longer a teyrn, nor even a knight. Address me without a title, as you would any other Grey Warden.
Zevran: So just Loghain, then.
Loghain: Correct. What's on your mind?
Zevran: You know who I am, yes? I was one of the Crows you hired to kill the Grey Wardens.
Loghain: I thought you looked familiar.
Zevran: Well, I just wanted to report that I failed my mission, Loghain.
Loghain: You don't say.
Zevran: I'm terribly broken up over it.
Loghain: Hmm. Well thank you kindly for informing me.

[rusty_shackleford]

No, it really isn't. Antiva and the Free Marches are much farther away and Orlais literally shares a border with Ferelden. Calling for help from the closest outpost is much, much more sensible then waiting for reinforcements that might be months away while an army is beating down your door.

Again, Poland in 1939. Orlais was not going to leave once they crossed that border.

And before you bring up Genevieve again: The architect isn't leading the blight and is, in fact, trying to prevent them from happening again

"Well, akshually, that dark spawn was not as bad so it's not like they were working with the darkspawn!"
99.9% of the people in the game's world don't even know that the archdemon can direct the darkspawn, let alone the idea of a darkspawn being sapient.

---

And the idea of it being harder to cross troops and supplies over water than terrain is ridiculous history revisionism. Waterways were how most things were transported until modern times. Look at how troops were transported during the crusades. Guess nobody told them it was just easier to march across terrain than sail! D'oh!

[rusty_shackleford]

quick napkin math suggests it would take the orlais troops at least 45 days marching — ~450 miles from the border to Ostagar(dao has some real autists, just google it.) This is discounting that half the route is mountainous, by the way.
That is, if they marched at the speed of Civil war troops. Since this is medieval fantasy, they certainly would not have. So we're probably looking at 2-3 months for Orlais troops to arrive in Ostagar, not counting all the time they spend raping and pillaging.

It would have almost guaranteed been faster to transport troops from the marches and march them down the pilgrim's path/roads than march troops from Orlais through a mountainous pass.


Sorry, but Duncan — a born thief who became a gray warden because he was a murderer — is just not a good tactician nor a good people person. Loghain still did nothing wrong.

[edit]
In fact, the fastest route to get troops to Ostagar ASAP would almost certainly be this:

If the troops were ready to move, that would probably take less than a month, maybe 2 weeks.

[SoLong]

99.9% of the people in the game's world don't even know that the archdemon can direct the darkspawn, let alone the idea of a darkspawn being sapient.

Irrelevant; Loghain and other leaders of their respective country knew. Their predecessors wrote contracts to give the warden free access to their countries for that reason.

Contracts which Loghain violated six ways to Sunday but I guess that's another one of his many sins that must be forgiven.

And the idea of it being harder to cross troops and supplies over water than terrain is ridiculous history revisionism. Waterways were how most things were transported until modern times. Look at how troops were transported during the crusades. Guess nobody told them it was just easier to march across terrain than sail! D'oh!

Yes rusty, it is indeed much easier to walk into a country that is your direct neighbor. Your nonsense would only make sense if Orlais were as distant from Fereldan as the Free Marches and Antiva. Considering that the Free Marches are in between Antiva and Ferelden and separated from Ferelden by the Waking Sea: yes, it's indeed much faster to go over land from Orlais. Because, you know, they are directly next to each other without a ******* ocean in between.

Do you even understand your own argument? You are saying that, for example, an England directly connected to France would be harder to reach that one that had an ocean in between.

Look here: On which map do you think is it easier to get to England? The one where England is separated from France by the sea, or the one where France is the direct neighbor of England?

Because according to you putting an ocean between two countries somehow makes it easier to go from country A to B.

Not to mention that your comparison assumes that the Free Marchers just have a giant fleet standing around that is able, willing and equipped to cart their army over to Ferelden.

Hint: It won't because the Free Marches aren't a unified state. If you wanted their help you would have to send envoys to at least the three mayor city states; Kirkwall, Starkhaven and Tantervale.

So you get the difficulty of convincing three different city-states to help, plus needing the Wardens in those city-states to come, all while everyone else is scratching their heads and wonder why the **** the ******** Fereldans ignore the Wardens already twiddling their thumbs on their doorsteps.

This is discounting that half the route is mountainous, by the way.

I would certainly hope you discounted them considering you had no difficulty ignoring the Vinmark Mountains in your calculations.

[rusty_shackleford]

Yes rusty, it is indeed much easier to walk into a country that is your direct neighbor. Your nonsense would only make sense if Orlais were as distant from Fereldan as the Free Marches and Antiva. Considering that the Free Marches are in between Antiva and Ferelden and separated from Ferelden by the Waking Sea: yes, it's indeed much faster to go over land from Orlais. Because, you know, they are directly next to each other without a ******* ocean in between.

Do you even understand your own argument? You are saying that, for example, an England directly connected to France would be harder to reach that one that had an ocean in between.

So what's the reason they didn't just sail across the channel and walk?

[Big Red Dog]

No, it really isn't. Antiva and the Free Marches are much farther away and Orlais literally shares a border with Ferelden. Calling for help from the closest outpost is much, much more sensible then waiting for reinforcements that might be months away while an army is beating down your door.

Again, Poland in 1939. Orlais was not going to leave once they crossed that border.

And before you bring up Genevieve again: The architect isn't leading the blight and is, in fact, trying to prevent them from happening again

"Well, akshually, that dark spawn was not as bad so it's not like they were working with the darkspawn!"
99.9% of the people in the game's world don't even know that the archdemon can direct the darkspawn, let alone the idea of a darkspawn being sapient.

---

And the idea of it being harder to cross troops and supplies over water than terrain is ridiculous history revisionism. Waterways were how most things were transported until modern times. Look at how troops were transported during the crusades. Guess nobody told them it was just easier to march across terrain than sail! D'oh!

most of your arguments rely on omniscience from loghain you can't bring up "ERM TEH FRIKEN PPL DIDN NO!!!!"

[Big Red Dog]

quick napkin math suggests it would take the orlais troops at least 45 days marching — ~450 miles from the border to Ostagar(dao has some real autists, just google it.) This is discounting that half the route is mountainous, by the way.
That is, if they marched at the speed of Civil war troops. Since this is medieval fantasy, they certainly would not have. So we're probably looking at 2-3 months for Orlais troops to arrive in Ostagar, not counting all the time they spend raping and pillaging.

It would have almost guaranteed been faster to transport troops from the marches and march them down the pilgrim's path/roads than march troops from Orlais through a mountainous pass.


Sorry, but Duncan — a born thief who became a gray warden because he was a murderer — is just not a good tactician nor a good people person. Loghain still did nothing wrong.

[edit]
In fact, the fastest route to get troops to Ostagar ASAP would almost certainly be this:

If the troops were ready to move, that would probably take less than a month, maybe 2 weeks.

this is ignoring that they would be marching over mountain ranges to get to their own coast, then crossing a sea full of sea monsters that can destroy entire ships, then landing in a heavily forested region and marching through that to rugged highlands and marching through the wilderness to ostagar. all the while being harrased by darkspawn, werewolves and other beasts
where orlais just has to walk along the established maintained roads to ostagar

[fkirenicus]

Loghain being right about Ostagar doesn't make up for him being so wrong about everything else afterwards.

The guy sends people to kill you, even hiring that *** Zevran.

Well, to be fair, the schmuck who did that was actually Howe. Though Loghain did not protest it, true

Zevran: So, err...is it Lord Loghain?
Loghain: I am no longer a teyrn, nor even a knight. Address me without a title, as you would any other Grey Warden.
Zevran: So just Loghain, then.
Loghain: Correct. What's on your mind?
Zevran: You know who I am, yes? I was one of the Crows you hired to kill the Grey Wardens.
Loghain: I thought you looked familiar.
Zevran: Well, I just wanted to report that I failed my mission, Loghain.
Loghain: You don't say.
Zevran: I'm terribly broken up over it.
Loghain: Hmm. Well thank you kindly for informing me.

Yep, but see the cutscene where Zevran is introduced. Howe explicitly states that he has "arranged a solution" on behalf of Loghain - who clearly isn't exactly ecstatic about the idea.

[fkirenicus]

And the idea of it being harder to cross troops and supplies over water than terrain is ridiculous history revisionism. Waterways were how most things were transported until modern times. Look at how troops were transported during the crusades. Guess nobody told them it was just easier to march across terrain than sail! D'oh!

Again, that's in the real world, where all Roman roads (and other landbased routes) had been lost. In Thedas there is the Imperial Highway which, despite it having seen better days in spots, is/was fully operational (or so we hear) from Minrathous all the way down to Ostagar. So, it would presumably be a far more convenient route than the Waking Sea, at least.
Now, the Amaranthine Ocean is a different matter, because one could sail all the way from Antiva to Gwaren - but it is unclear how long it would take. Judging from DA:E it took 14 days (IIRC) to sail from Gwaren to Kirkwall (which I think must be "a clerical error" on the writers' behalf, but that does not matter...).

[J1M]

I'm willing to accept that the writers identified their mistake and decided at a late hour of world building that the sea is full of an improbable number of sea monsters that like to eat boats.

Seems like the kind of thing that would leave its footprints on any coastal society if it wasn't a last minute addition. (Sea slayer guild, occult items related to parts from these creatures, a skeleton mounted in the royal court, mentioned more often in passing.)

[Tweed]

LOGHAIN
DID
NOTHING
WRONG!

[Oyster Sauce]

Beginning to suspect a few of you are gigglesqueeing over a voice actor...

[Lhynn]

Lohgain was uninformed and ********. He made a bad situation worse and he did it out of arrogance.

The only reason Ferelden even stands is that the ****** mary sue witch magically teleported you out of there on a hunch.

[Tweed]

Beginning to suspect a few of you are gigglesqueeing over a voice actor...

Yeah, it was really cool being inducted into the wardens by Splinter.

[Acrux]

Beginning to suspect a few of you are gigglesqueeing over a voice actor...

Yeah, it was really cool being inducted into the wardens by Splinter.

I honestly think that's the main reason why people love Duncan so much. If his voice actor had been someone people didn't immediately connect with as a mentor I bet more people would question his wisdom.

[Silvanus]

Loghain being right about Ostagar doesn't make up for him being so wrong about everything else afterwards.

The guy sends people to kill you, even hiring that *** Zevran.

Even the assassination business has been infected with DEI..

[Tweed]

Relive the magic! Rather timely clip, only posted last month.

[Finarfin]

Beginning to suspect a few of you are gigglesqueeing over a voice actor...

Yeah, it was really cool being inducted into the wardens by Splinter.

I honestly think that's the main reason why people love Duncan so much. If his voice actor had been someone people didn't immediately connect with as a mentor I bet more people would question his wisdom.

Atleast for me it wasn't the fact he was voiced by Peter Renaday since I played it with the german voice acting (the guy that dubs Kevin James dubbed Duncan) it was the fact that he was cool, someone your character immediately forms a mentor teacher relationship with, that he was a fair man who had to do the difficult things even if people hated him

[rusty_shackleford]

Beginning to suspect a few of you are gigglesqueeing over a voice actor...

Yeah, it was really cool being inducted into the wardens by Splinter.

I honestly think that's the main reason why people love Duncan so much. If his voice actor had been someone people didn't immediately connect with as a mentor I bet more people would question his wisdom.

Duncan was a petty thief who became a warden because he killed a warden while trying to steal from him. Loghain was a war hero who won countless battles, loved by his people.
The casting was entirely on purpose, people who can't look deeper than the way someone looks or sounds.

[Element]

Sailing speed even in unfavourable winds would exceed daily marching speed: 2-3 knots per hour, for the duration of the whole day. In favourable conditions that would go to 5-6. A march on the other hand, on a good road, would be about 20-25 miles per day (really pushing it with the upper figure). Orlais would begin the march from Val Royeux, not from the border, and as such they'd have to loop around lake Celestine. It's unclear whether the bridge shortcut is still up, Gaider said it's the 'remnants'. I think its likely that landing ships from Antiva in Denerim and marching to Ostagar would be the shorter trip.

[Cliff Racer]

Pages obessing about some derivative Game! you see how my pointi s good when ther is only talk about some forgettable npc for FIVE PAGES!!1
Logan this logan that so boring you should feel Shame for yrself for liking Derviative game so much lmao lol @ liking voice actor, morrowind vas easily kick the *** of this game they got some feel to it esp dunmer va

[Finarfin]

Pages obessing about some derivative Game! you see how my pointi s good when ther is only talk about some forgettable npc for FIVE PAGES!!1
Logan this logan that so boring you should feel Shame for yrself for liking Derviative game so much lmao lol @ liking voice actor, morrowind vas easily kick the *** of this game they got some feel to it esp dunmer va

>some forgettable npc
>still got about 5 pages full of discussion about him
I don't think you thought this through.

[Reichspepe]

Pages obessing about some derivative Game! you see how my pointi s good when ther is only talk about some forgettable npc for FIVE PAGES!!1
Logan this logan that so boring you should feel Shame for yrself for liking Derviative game so much lmao lol @ liking voice actor, morrowind vas easily kick the *** of this game they got some feel to it esp dunmer va

Holy crap man, hold yourself to a higher standard with your writing. This **** hurts to read.

[BosanskiSeljak]

Pages obessing about some derivative Game! you see how my pointi s good when ther is only talk about some forgettable npc for FIVE PAGES!!1
Logan this logan that so boring you should feel Shame for yrself for liking Derviative game so much lmao lol @ liking voice actor, morrowind vas easily kick the *** of this game they got some feel to it esp dunmer va

Go on tell me how the most overrated franchise in gaming is the pinnacle of gaming when some German jank is infinitely superior.

[KOS-MOS]

I thought we all agreed 20 years ago to not feed the trolls on the internet.. This bait is so obvious it's painful to read

[Element]

Pages obessing about some derivative Game!

You're in the wrong neighbourhood, fren

[WhiteShark]

To all those criticizing Cailan as a gloryhound for 'recklessly' fighting on the frontline: this was actually pretty normal, historically. It was beneficial to morale and it let the king respond quickly to changes in the state of battle. Eventually this stopped being the norm, but there are examples right up into modern times: Albert I of Belgium personally fought during WWI as well as his son.

[rusty_shackleford]

To all those criticizing Cailan as a gloryhound for 'recklessly' fighting on the frontline: this was actually pretty normal, historically. It was beneficial to morale and it let the king respond quickly to changes in the state of battle. Eventually this stopped being the norm, but there are examples right up into modern times: Albert I of Belgium personally fought during WWI as well as his son.

He was doing it for glory, the people didn't love him and had a much higher regard for the queen. He was trying to become a war hero like Loghain so that he could annul his marriage and marry the Orlesian empress.
If this is all starting to sound like a very specific ingerlan' king, well, that was probably the point. Catherine was loved by the people. Cailan is basically a "What if Henry VIII wasn't a charismatic leader? What if the War of the Roses wasn't still vaguely fresh in people's minds?"

[Cliff Racer]

@Finarfin @Reichspepe @bosniakseiak
More like the truth hurts lmao! even morrowind tut npc like fargoth is more Memorable!!

Much more Adorable, still recall his quest chain after all yrs that ring lol also the guy who falls from teh sky is more intresting to me
Pretty muc heverything about dargon age is Derivative the devs set out to make Game, had no clue and said lets maek baldurs gate 2 that popular!
We got shitt like:
Leilana is imoen, same haircut and pink hair, same forgettablepersonality
Boring va like the one from tv show Rome with horse teeth
Main enemy char race is like orcs but more Boring also wit hfull plate carier that dosnt stop blows lmao
Tehy tried to make same gameplay as baldurs gate 2 but out of ideas no Cool mage duels also the main attacks system is just Bad
But with MORE BLOOD like jam in faces to atract Dumbest crowd who only want graphic Mature conent
Also really dumb ads ran on internet its llike beginning of "games are movies" trend with drama no Gameplay just running clashing armies wow thedrama
Alaso as some other Say teh devs like gameofthrones made by sea elephant on scooter, so tehy try to capt that feeling just... Derivative no thought of theri own just sux
Just edgy shitt for small minds, add baldurs gate 2 but more sux, more shallow syustem of combat

I thought we all agreed 20 years ago to not feed the trolls on the internet.. This bait is so obvious it's painful to read

Lol

Enough ******** on dargonage sorry to say, but its a Bad Game, maybe its good if you like Derivative stuff like npcs ingame lol my King is fighting in front line, lets type like 5 pages of boring to read texta bout it

Dont want to say Tes3 Morrowind is flawles sbut its much better, more thought out Systems, like butes, star signs etc also more Immersive wolrd, more unqiue Setting
Also more phun, not serious darma like dragon age, Im just saying SPEARS and leave liek that