Various role-playing RPG game stuff not deserving its own thread

[rusty_shackleford]

Has any other game ever become an RPG post-release? The devs of this game overhauled most of the game and turned it from a metroid-like(?) into an RPG-metroidvania in a post-launch patch.

Here's the patch: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app ... 8732826857
Just casually adding a gear, attributes, and a skill tree system in a patch?

Also looks pretty good, btw. In both meanings, the art looks fantastic.

[Emphyrio]

Also looks pretty good, btw. In both meanings, the art looks fantastic.

The game has a sense of style. Better than wooden crates and shipping containers.

Are they really selling a collection of ai images as a "digital artbook"? Extremely ****.

[rusty_shackleford]

INSOMNIA: The Ark is pretty good. I've played much buggier & unfinished games, it doesn't warrant the rating it has on Steam(so far) imo.

[rusty_shackleford]

Has any other game ever become an RPG post-release? The devs of this game overhauled most of the game and turned it from a metroid-like(?) into an RPG-metroidvania in a post-launch patch.

Here's the patch: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app ... 8732826857
Just casually adding a gear, attributes, and a skill tree system in a patch?

Also looks pretty good, btw. In both meanings, the art looks fantastic.

Conveniently, this game just went on sale if it looks appealing to you.

[AliciaDurge]

Has any other game ever become an RPG post-release? The devs of this game overhauled most of the game and turned it from a metroid-like(?) into an RPG-metroidvania in a post-launch patch.

Here's the patch: https://store.steampowered.com/news/app ... 8732826857
Just casually adding a gear, attributes, and a skill tree system in a patch?

Also looks pretty good, btw. In both meanings, the art looks fantastic.

Conveniently, this game just went on sale if it looks appealing to you.

Thanks for recommending this, sounds good.

[rusty_shackleford]

What RPGs feature sun magic?
Only one I can think of off the top of my head is Shroud of the Avatar.

[Acrux]

Dragon Wars

[asf]

majesty

[rusty_shackleford]

main reason I hate diablo 2-clones and consider them non-RPGs is the game is designed around making optimized builds that are completely non-conductive to roleplaying
e.g., you'll have a paladin class and the game expects you to play some weird build that revolves around throwing hammers, it's stupid

what's the point of giving the player the illusion of choice? Everyone is just gonna go look builds up online because nobody wants to make a character that can't actually play the game, there is no real buildmaking actually happening.

[Humbaba]

what's the point of giving the player the illusion of choice? Everyone is just gonna go look builds up online because nobody wants to make a character that can't actually play the game, there is no real buildmaking actually happening.

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait hold on, I thought we hated balance? I think we really need a manifesto outlining our beliefs.





-Humbaba

[rusty_shackleford]

what's the point of giving the player the illusion of choice? Everyone is just gonna go look builds up online because nobody wants to make a character that can't actually play the game, there is no real buildmaking actually happening.

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait hold on, I thought we hated balance? I think we really need a manifesto outlining our beliefs.





-Humbaba

One defining feature of essentially all these games is that if you don't go look a build up online, you will almost guaranteed make a character that is irreversibly unable to play the game past a certain point. These games are made by people who broke diablo 2 and want to play other games that are just a facsimile of the broken state of that game.
Opposing this is not in favor of 'muh balance', it's opposing **** design. Nothing is actually added by giving a false illusion of choice, nobody is making broken characters at this point unless they are completely new to the genre. Everyone just looks a build up online and follows it.

[Humbaba]

Opposing this is not in favor of 'muh balance', it's opposing **** design. Nothing is actually added by giving a false illusion of choice, nobody is making broken characters at this point unless they are completely new to the genre. Everyone just looks a build up online and follows it.

You made the same point again just with more words and with no new information. A lack of balance is indicative of bad design but you're still not clear on that point. So my demand for a manifesto still stands.




-Humbaba

[rusty_shackleford]

Opposing this is not in favor of 'muh balance', it's opposing **** design. Nothing is actually added by giving a false illusion of choice, nobody is making broken characters at this point unless they are completely new to the genre. Everyone just looks a build up online and follows it.

You made the same point again just with more words and with no new information. A lack of balance is indicative of bad design but you're still not clear on that point. So my demand for a manifesto still stands.




-Humbaba

'muh balance' would be demanding Fighters and Wizards be equally good in combat. 'Balance' would be pointing out fighters should be better at combat because wizards are much better outside of combat.
Opposing Diablo 2-clone retardation is neither of these, it's pointing out that these games are purposefully designed to have many trap choices that lead to bad characters. 3.5e and pathfinder are quite similar to this, btw.

[Oyster Sauce]

what's the point of giving the player the illusion of choice? Everyone is just gonna go look builds up online because nobody wants to make a character that can't actually play the game, there is no real buildmaking actually happening.

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait hold on, I thought we hated balance? I think we really need a manifesto outlining our beliefs.





-Humbaba

One defining feature of essentially all these games is that if you don't go look a build up online, you will almost guaranteed make a character that is irreversibly unable to play the game past a certain point.

Yeah but the "certain point" is just killing the same bosses you've already killed but on a higher difficulty. There's no way to **** up so badly in Diablo 2 that it's impossible to complete the 5 acts, kill Baal, and see the end credits. Not every build needs to be able to beat the game on Very Very Hard Nightmare Skullfuck mode.

[rusty_shackleford]

Another common example of illusion of choice:
Lots of weapon types, but they don't actually do anything different. But people would complain if you just had 'Sword' rather than 10 different reskins of 'Sword'.

[Humbaba]

'muh balance' would be demanding Fighters and Wizards be equally good in combat. 'Balance' would be pointing out fighters should be better at combat because wizards are much better outside of combat.

That's not true, balance would mean that fighter A is just as viable as fighter B but have different strengths and weaknesses. Roosty I'll be honest you're not doing much to appease my need for a manifesto.




-Humbaba

[rusty_shackleford]

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait hold on, I thought we hated balance? I think we really need a manifesto outlining our beliefs.





-Humbaba

One defining feature of essentially all these games is that if you don't go look a build up online, you will almost guaranteed make a character that is irreversibly unable to play the game past a certain point.

Yeah but the "certain point" is just killing the same bosses you've already killed but on a higher difficulty. There's no way to **** up so badly in Diablo 2 that it's impossible to complete the 5 acts, kill Baal, and see the end credits. Not every build needs to be able to beat the game on Very Very Hard Nightmare Skullfuck mode.

You didn't explain what being able to choose talents actually adds to the game.
If, as you say, people who don't care will just assign points randomly and quit after beating the game on easy.
People who do care just go look a build up online.

How is this better than just assigning predefined classes with no talent choices?

[Xenich]

Opposing this is not in favor of 'muh balance', it's opposing **** design. Nothing is actually added by giving a false illusion of choice, nobody is making broken characters at this point unless they are completely new to the genre. Everyone just looks a build up online and follows it.

You made the same point again just with more words and with no new information. A lack of balance is indicative of bad design but you're still not clear on that point. So my demand for a manifesto still stands.




-Humbaba

Balance how though? A balance of pros/cons, strengths and weaknesses which will make each encounters difficulty a result of those choices? Or balance in that every build has to excel equally as well as every other regardless of the situation and choice?

The latter isn't balance, its just hiding images and names behind one singular build design.

[Oyster Sauce]

One defining feature of essentially all these games is that if you don't go look a build up online, you will almost guaranteed make a character that is irreversibly unable to play the game past a certain point.

Yeah but the "certain point" is just killing the same bosses you've already killed but on a higher difficulty. There's no way to **** up so badly in Diablo 2 that it's impossible to complete the 5 acts, kill Baal, and see the end credits. Not every build needs to be able to beat the game on Very Very Hard Nightmare Skullfuck mode.

You didn't explain what being able to choose talents actually adds to the game.
If, as you say, people who don't care will just assign points randomly and quit after beating the game on easy.
People who do care just go look a build up online.

How is this better than just assigning predefined classes with no talent choices?

It's better because they don't pick talents randomly, they pick ones they think are cool and fun

[rusty_shackleford]

The main issue with any notion of 'balance' in these games is that they have exactly one way to play them: clear the map as fast as possible. Anything that does not optimize for map clearing is therefore an inferior choice.
The only reason hardcore is interesting in these games is because it adds a new dimension to it("also, don't die").

[rusty_shackleford]

Yeah but the "certain point" is just killing the same bosses you've already killed but on a higher difficulty. There's no way to **** up so badly in Diablo 2 that it's impossible to complete the 5 acts, kill Baal, and see the end credits. Not every build needs to be able to beat the game on Very Very Hard Nightmare Skullfuck mode.

You didn't explain what being able to choose talents actually adds to the game.
If, as you say, people who don't care will just assign points randomly and quit after beating the game on easy.
People who do care just go look a build up online.

How is this better than just assigning predefined classes with no talent choices?

It's better because they don't pick talents randomly, they pick ones they think are cool and fun

like 80% of talent choices in these games are "do 3% more damage".
This is a talent tree calculator for the most recent cookie clicker clone to release and is quite popular: https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/
Most of the passives are just "do 3%5% more damage"

[Humbaba]

The main issue with any notion of 'balance' in these games is that they have exactly one way to play them: clear the map as fast as possible. Anything that does not optimize for map clearing is therefore an inferior choice.
The only reason hardcore is interesting in these games is because it adds a new dimension to it("also, don't die").

That's also not true, not dying is a dimension on all difficulties and some builds may excel at map clearing in certain situations better than other builds. Roosty, just release the **** manifesto!





-Humbaba

[rusty_shackleford]

The main issue with any notion of 'balance' in these games is that they have exactly one way to play them: clear the map as fast as possible. Anything that does not optimize for map clearing is therefore an inferior choice.
The only reason hardcore is interesting in these games is because it adds a new dimension to it("also, don't die").

That's also not true, not dying is a dimension on all difficulties and some builds may excel at map clearing in certain situations better than other builds. Roosty, just release the **** manifesto!





-Humbaba

The penalty for dying goes from 'teleport back' to 'create an entirely new character'. This is kinda different.

[Humbaba]

The penalty for dying goes from 'teleport back' to 'create an entirely new character'. This is kinda different.

Avoiding death is still a dimension regardless of the repercussions of dying. If that weren't true, there'd be builds that account for dying and those don't exist. I'll have that manifesto now.





-Humbaba

[rusty_shackleford]

The penalty for dying goes from 'teleport back' to 'create an entirely new character'. This is kinda different.

Avoiding death is still a dimension regardless of the repercussions of dying. If that weren't true, there'd be builds that account for dying and those don't exist. I'll have that manifesto now.





-Humbaba

Manifesto:
Classes good, subclasses better, illusion of choice bad.

[Humbaba]

Manifesto:
Classes good, subclasses better, illusion of choice bad.

Parsimonious definitions usually are the best.





-Humbaba

[Oyster Sauce]

You didn't explain what being able to choose talents actually adds to the game.
If, as you say, people who don't care will just assign points randomly and quit after beating the game on easy.
People who do care just go look a build up online.

How is this better than just assigning predefined classes with no talent choices?

It's better because they don't pick talents randomly, they pick ones they think are cool and fun

like 80% of talent choices in these games are "do 3% more damage".
This is a talent tree calculator for the most recent cookie clicker clone to release and is quite popular: https://www.lastepochtools.com/planner/
Most of the passives are just "do 3%5% more damage"

I don't have much experience with POE style 1000 node webs, but I believe they're more generous with the points to compensate and you wind up getting active skills at roughly the same rate (I could be wrong hehe)

[aweigh]

[rusty_shackleford]

It's hard to understate the amount of damage done to RPGs(tabletop and CRPGs) due to Magic: The Gathering.
https://web.archive.org/web/20080221174 ... mc_los_142

The idea of having a choice that is intentionally subpar is considered good design by these people.

[Acrux]

That's gonna be the Monte Cook thing, isn't it?





It was.