D&D Edition Wars

[Cipher]

The main differences in the older works I did and 3E are style of writing, reliance on archetypes, limitatations on character advancement, availability of and creation of magic items, and general single-class play for human characters.

Additionally, I find no soul in the new D&D game, no archetypes, just seek and destroy play and too much of the comic book superhero in characters.

Rest in peace, Mr. Gygax.

[WaterMage]

About what I personally would do with magic in 4e, I wouldn't make casters exactly like martials, but I would "nerf" casters from 3.5e. By the following ways:

• Themed casters. After the spell plague, magic became more unstable; wizards needed to attune themselves with an elemental plane to channel its energy. So, we would have Pyromancers, Aeromancers, Nethermancers (Demi-plane of Shadows), Necromancers (Realm of the Dead), Demonologists (Abyss), Enchanters (Dreams), etc.
• Casters would need secondary attributes for DC, eg - An Enchantress would need INT to learn spells and CHA for its DC. An Nethermancer, needs INT and DEX. Pyromancers, INT and STR. Aeromancers, INT and WIS or DEX. It would introduce Martial MAD(Multi attribute dependency) to casters in a way that makes sense.
• Being a mage would incur some debuffs. For example, pyromancers would be weak against cold. Nethermancers would have sunlight sensitivity, etc.
• Also arcane marks.
• The strongest spells would require multiple turns to cast. A spell like Meteor Swarm would take 3 turns to cast.
• Misscasts and being interrupted while channeling and failing a concentration roll would be dangerous. Demonologists losing control over his demons, pyromancers being hit by their own fireballs
• Lots of metaplot consequences for the spellplague. In the Forgotten realms, Thay should suffer a slave rebellion.

More closer to the "paths" in world of darkness, spell schools in GURPS and WFRP "color" mages and less "generic mmo".

[enisey]

I learned on 3.5e, then Pathfinder. I didn't like 4e mainly because of the minions and rest mechanics that made resource management less interesting.

5e felt too streamlined, but it was alright, I suppose. Better than 4e. I prefer having more options/conditions in combat and more variety in character creation, but I haven't kept up with any supplemental books or 5.5e.

Everything Paizo and WOTC does now is gay anyway.

I haven't tried anything else sadly, but I'd love to try older editions.

[Cipher]

Everything Paizo and WOTC does now is gay anyway.

Always has been for Paizo. For WotC one could argue that not always, but those times are so far removed they may as well be whispers of a long lost civilization at this point.

[enisey]

Everything Paizo and WOTC does now is gay anyway.

Always has been for Paizo. For WotC one could argue that not always, but those times are so far removed they may as well be whispers of a long lost civilization at this point.

I looked it up and you're right, Adventure Paths had a bunch of gay **** in them. I must not have remembered them in Rise of the Runelords. I usually make up my own campaign settings anyway.

[Acrux]

Paizo literally started so they could add gay and ****** materials to modules when they took over Dragon.

[SiMtRy]

I learned on 3.5e, then Pathfinder. I didn't like 4e mainly because of the minions and rest mechanics that made resource management less interesting.

5e felt too streamlined, but it was alright, I suppose. Better than 4e. I prefer having more options/conditions in combat and more variety in character creation, but I haven't kept up with any supplemental books or 5.5e.

Everything Paizo and WOTC does now is gay anyway.

I haven't tried anything else sadly, but I'd love to try older editions.

BX is easy to pick up and learn. Seek out The BX dnd Omnibus. Use OSE Classic for referring only, i don't find much use for it to learn the game.

1e is a labyrinth. Horribly edited, but it is a great read. The DMG is worth its weight in gold. If you do decide to pick up 1e, read it alongside OSRIC 1e.

[UltraFan123]

About what I personally would do with magic in 4e, I wouldn't make casters exactly like martials, but I would "nerf" casters from 3.5e. By the following ways:

• Themed casters. After the spell plague, magic became more unstable; wizards needed to attune themselves with an elemental plane to channel its energy. So, we would have Pyromancers, Aeromancers, Nethermancers (Demi-plane of Shadows), Necromancers (Realm of the Dead), Demonologists (Abyss), Enchanters (Dreams), etc.
• Casters would need secondary attributes for DC, eg - An Enchantress would need INT to learn spells and CHA for its DC. An Nethermancer, needs INT and DEX. Pyromancers, INT and STR. Aeromancers, INT and WIS or DEX. It would introduce Martial MAD(Multi attribute dependency) to casters in a way that makes sense.
• Being a mage would incur some debuffs. For example, pyromancers would be weak against cold. Nethermancers would have sunlight sensitivity, etc.
• Also arcane marks.
• The strongest spells would require multiple turns to cast. A spell like Meteor Swarm would take 3 turns to cast.
• Misscasts and being interrupted while channeling and failing a concentration roll would be dangerous. Demonologists losing control over his demons, pyromancers being hit by their own fireballs
• Lots of metaplot consequences for the spellplague. In the Forgotten realms, Thay should suffer a slave rebellion.

More closer to the "paths" in world of darkness, spell schools in GURPS and WFRP "color" mages and less "generic mmo".

Something similar to this was published as a 3rd party add-on for the 1st edition of Pathfinder called Spheres of Power.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant- ... -of-power/

[WaterMage]

About what I personally would do with magic in 4e, I wouldn't make casters exactly like martials, but I would "nerf" casters from 3.5e. By the following ways:

• Themed casters. After the spell plague, magic became more unstable; wizards needed to attune themselves with an elemental plane to channel its energy. So, we would have Pyromancers, Aeromancers, Nethermancers (Demi-plane of Shadows), Necromancers (Realm of the Dead), Demonologists (Abyss), Enchanters (Dreams), etc.
• Casters would need secondary attributes for DC, eg - An Enchantress would need INT to learn spells and CHA for its DC. An Nethermancer, needs INT and DEX. Pyromancers, INT and STR. Aeromancers, INT and WIS or DEX. It would introduce Martial MAD(Multi attribute dependency) to casters in a way that makes sense.
• Being a mage would incur some debuffs. For example, pyromancers would be weak against cold. Nethermancers would have sunlight sensitivity, etc.
• Also arcane marks.
• The strongest spells would require multiple turns to cast. A spell like Meteor Swarm would take 3 turns to cast.
• Misscasts and being interrupted while channeling and failing a concentration roll would be dangerous. Demonologists losing control over his demons, pyromancers being hit by their own fireballs
• Lots of metaplot consequences for the spellplague. In the Forgotten realms, Thay should suffer a slave rebellion.

More closer to the "paths" in world of darkness, spell schools in GURPS and WFRP "color" mages and less "generic mmo".

Something similar to this was published as a 3rd party add-on for the 1st edition of Pathfinder called Spheres of Power.

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant- ... -of-power/

That is just "themed" mages, don't make magic fells otherworldy and dangerous like for eg :

Shadow Wizards from tsr02445 - Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas - page 61.


Yes, you could DIE while preparing or casting spells. And high level Shadow wizards had massive social penalties.

EDIT : In Athas, magic damages the environment. "Cheating" it by connecting a otherworldly dimension and using it as energy source shouldn't be consequence and risk free.

[J1M]

Randomly dying for casting a spell is ******** design by someone that doesn't understand math.

[WaterMage]

Randomly dying for casting a spell is ******** design by someone that doesn't understand math.

No, it is not. In Athas, there is no weave; arcane magic draws upon energy from the environment. If you are trying to "cheat" the system and get energy from another dimension, that should be dangerous. Just like trying to make a nuclear reactor in a post-apocalyptic world should be dangerous. Trying to make stuff like mercury fulminate and paper cartridges lever action rifles should also be dangerous in such world.

If your char died, so be it. Roll another. If the DM is generous, he allows you to start at the same level. It is just that players want to play as novel protagonists and not characters in dangerous fictional worlds. Players often write a 10-page backstory before Session 1. This is not how AD&D Dark Sun is played.

[Oyster Sauce]

Randomly dying for casting a spell is ******** design by someone that doesn't understand math.

No, it is not. In Athas, there is no weave; arcane magic draws upon energy from the environment. If you are trying to "cheat" the system and get energy from another dimension, that should be dangerous. Just like trying to make a nuclear reactor in a post-apocalyptic world should be dangerous. Trying to make stuff like mercury fulminate and paper cartridges lever action rifles should also be dangerous in such world.

If your char died, so be it. Roll another. If the DM is generous, he allows you to start at the same level. It is just that players want to play as novel protagonists and not characters in dangerous fictional worlds. Players often write a 10-page backstory before Session 1. This is not how AD&D Dark Sun is played.

cool I'll be a fighter

[WaterMage]

cool I'll be a fighter

For athas, good choice. The less dangerous and socially acceptable path.

[Norfleet]

Yes, you could DIE while preparing or casting spells. And high level Shadow wizards had massive social penalties.

Emphasis on COULD, but only if you're ******* STUPID, because 1d4 damage is not considered to be fatal under normal circumstances. If you're casting on your last few hitpoints, sure, you COULD die. But realistically, taking 1d6+1 damage doesn't kill you, especially not when you get a Con check to avoid (and if you're playing a class that has to make constant checks like this, you **** well better have a decent score).

Randomly dying for casting a spell is ******** design by someone that doesn't understand math.

You don't randomly die. You randomly take DAMAGE, but not at levels that are especially fatal. There's no save-or-die here. All you have to do to have a 0% chance of dying from this is simply never to do so while you are single digit HP.

[mercerxiv]

(Referring to the thread name) I don't care who wins, I only care that 5e and beyond loses absolutely.

[J1M]

Randomly dying for casting a spell is ******** design by someone that doesn't understand math.

No, it is not. In Athas, there is no weave; arcane magic draws upon energy from the environment. If you are trying to "cheat" the system and get energy from another dimension, that should be dangerous. Just like trying to make a nuclear reactor in a post-apocalyptic world should be dangerous. Trying to make stuff like mercury fulminate and paper cartridges lever action rifles should also be dangerous in such world.

If your char died, so be it. Roll another. If the DM is generous, he allows you to start at the same level. It is just that players want to play as novel protagonists and not characters in dangerous fictional worlds. Players often write a 10-page backstory before Session 1. This is not how AD&D Dark Sun is played.

Or you just use the equivalent psionic powers in that setting.

Why are you so high on this idea if you can just replace your character with another the same level? Your verisimilitude sounds like a free respec.

[UltraFan123]

When it comes to "balancing classes" or whatever, the more common paths are either nerfing spellcasters or buffing the martial classes.

Nerfing is usually easier, but if I were to design an RPG, I would just give cool stuff to the warriors, like the combat maneuvers alternate system that 3.5 introduced in the Tomes of Battle books.

[Stack of Turtles]

(Referring to the thread name) I don't care who wins, I only care that 5e and beyond loses absolutely.

It won't

[WaterMage]

Nerfing is usually easier, but if I were to design an RPG, I would just give cool stuff to the warriors, like the combat maneuvers alternate system that 3.5 introduced in the Tomes of Battle books.

I agree that martials should have more cool stuff. Decapitation, mutilation, maneuvers that can cleave multiple enemies. I expect mid level ones to have this stuff. But imo "Nerfing" casters is not that problem if instead of looking at **** systems like 4e, they looked at GURPS, VtM Tremere(paths and rituals), WFRP, etc. IE - Themed and dangerous casters.

Meteor Swarm in D&D is a standard action. In Warhammer, Comet of Casandora is a spell for only the Celestial order that takes so long to cast that is worthless outside a siege. In GURPS, it would be a artillery spell that requires a coven and a long ritual to cast. In 4e, is 8d6+INT MOD spell in a game where mobs have thousands of hp.

Or you just use the equivalent psionic powers in that setting.

Yes. Psionics in Athas are quite powerful.

In AD&D, I think that Psionics are broken at low levels. Like, you can get disintegrate at 3rd level. And contrary to magic, it does not check MR.

because 1d4 damage is not considered to be fatal under normal circumstances. If you're casting on your last few hitpoints, sure, you COULD die. But realistically, taking 1d6+1 damage doesn't kill you

You are ignoring that magic users in AD&D have d4 hit dice and they con at best give +1.

Dark Sun recommends starting at lv 3. So, if the user rolled 2,3,2 and had +1 con, he could have 10 hp(3+4+3). Without it, is 7. So, d6+1 can kill someone at full hp albeit it is very rare. But in Dark Sun, you will rarely be at full hp. Healing herbs, items and divine magic is much rarer.

[Norfleet]

You are ignoring that magic users in AD&D have d4 hit dice and they con at best give +1.

I'm pretty sure it was +2 for non-warriors. And Darksun uses 4d4+4 for stats instead of 3d6, so you can rack up some more stats there.

Dark Sun recommends starting at lv 3. So, if the user rolled 2,3,2 and had +1 con, he could have 10 hp(3+4+3). Without it, is 7. So, d6+1 can kill someone at full hp albeit it is very rare. But in Dark Sun, you will rarely be at full hp. Healing herbs, items and divine magic is much rarer.

None of which matters because you KNOW when you have less than 7 HP to spare.

[WaterMage]

None of which matters because you KNOW when you have less than 7 HP to spare.

Yep. But many people underestimate how harsh Dark Sun is. You will rarely be at full hp. Divine magic works differently, clerics spells are a bit different....

Journeys across cities are expensive, requires beasts of burden, water is expensive, food too. Slavers and raiders are a threat and trying to tame beasts of burden is not easy. For example, the closest animal to a "horse" in Athas is the Crodlu.


If the party wants to "tame" one wild Crodlu, he has :

• 2 claws for 1d6 damage each
• 1 bite for 1d10 damage

Or 3 minimum, 12.5 average and 22 maximum damage.

Stuff that is common in other settings are incredible rare in Athas. A rusty metal sword, a low level divine magic that can heal wounds, a mere beast of burden is much rarer and scarcer in Athas. Most weapons are made of bones, stones or obsidian.

[Norfleet]

Most weapons are made of bones, stones or obsidian.

Yeah, but obsidian is a hell of a thing for making a weapon out of. An obsidian weapon like the Aztec macuahuitl, is reputed in the accounts of Spanish Conquistadors for its ability to decapitate a horse in one shot.

[Norfleet]

For example, the closest animal to a "horse" in Athas is the Crodlu.


If the party wants to "tame" one wild Crodlu, he has :

• 2 claws for 1d6 damage each
• 1 bite for 1d10 damage

Or 3 minimum, 12.5 average and 22 maximum damage.

On the other hand, it probably has a relatively docile and amiable personality, or else it wouldn't be a domesticable animal at all. I mean, I'm not sure you fully appreciate just how much damage a horse or a cow will do to you. Even in D&D rules, a horse is anything from 2x1d4 to 1d8, and cows are 2x1d4 + 1d10 + charge attack. All this is plenty to **** up the typical random peasant animal herder, so causing MORE damage isn't making him more dead. Managing an animal is about convincing it NOT to attack you at all, rather than overcoming its combat stats. So given that it is a "widely used" domesticated animal, it must necessarily fulfill the characteristics of of a domesticable animal, meaning it doesn't attempt to murder people on sight by nature.

[Killagain665]

As someone not really a part of the argument but does have experience in breaking wild horses. Let me tell you the

If the party wants to "tame" one wild Crodlu, he has :
2 claws for 1d6 damage each
1 bite for 1d10 damage
Or 3 minimum, 12.5 average and 22 maximum damage.

is something the 7HP normal citizen that is just trying to tame it is very worried about. They try to run away from you, failing that they then try to stomp, kick, or bite you. (and apparently claw if you are whatever this is) Being bit by a horse hurts very bad and usually breaks bones when done in the mind set of "GET THE **** OFF ME YOU ARE NOT TAKING ME ALIVE YOU HUMAN PIECE OF ****" levels of mentality. When you finally get them chased into pens to break them, you then pull out a very, very cruel act. You starve them of water forcing them to be extremely dehydrated (in all seriousness it is less then to no worse than most pro athletes do for weigh ins or models to have pictures of them taken to look a certain way). Then you have a bucket of water. They want that water cause they are ******* dying so they eventually walk up to you for water. *Insert a few days to month cause each horse is different* Eventually after making them loose the fear they have for you they will start allowing you to touch them and walk close to them without the immediate reaction to **** you up. And still then they sometimes spook and someone winds up with cracked or broken ribs. This is where you start training them to pull or ride, lead or follow. It is a really dangerous thing to do. Especially when two horses who have been trained to lead start trying to get ahead of one another and you and your friend are riding them and start to laugh knowing what they are doing until they are both wildly sprinting and you are both just holding on for dear life hoping it doesn't hit a hole in the pasture killing you and/or the horse before it stops before tiring out. Good times I swear. I would like to have 5~7 levels of HP to shake that **** off if given the option but alas we are all NPC classed and level 1 in this world. Anyway, yeah I left some stuff out but taming and training a horse is ******* dangerous and should not be done by an idiot that watched a boob-tube video and read a self help article to boost their confidence. And subjecting the character you are running to it is pretty assholish to me, unless they have some kind of druid, ranger, profession: Horse Trainer, something more than just the catch all Handle Animal/Animal Handling cause that is usually how you use/father train an already broken animal and it can take a month easily to just break/domesticate an animal. Druids and Ranger have a magic rituals and get around that. Profession have to take time, as well as if you convinced someone and came to terms that Handle Animal does that, still it takes time and the animal is going to be very disagreeable for a while even after your supposed success moment. Animals like horses and cows are stupidly intelligent and it scares me sometimes.

[Cipher]

As someone not really a part of the argument but does have experience in breaking wild horses. Let me tell you the

If the party wants to "tame" one wild Crodlu, he has :
2 claws for 1d6 damage each
1 bite for 1d10 damage
Or 3 minimum, 12.5 average and 22 maximum damage.

is something the 7HP normal citizen that is just trying to tame it is very worried about. They try to run away from you, failing that they then try to stomp, kick, or bite you. (and apparently claw if you are whatever this is) Being bit by a horse hurts very bad and usually breaks bones when done in the mind set of "GET THE **** OFF ME YOU ARE NOT TAKING ME ALIVE YOU HUMAN PIECE OF ****" levels of mentality. When you finally get them chased into pens to break them, you then pull out a very, very cruel act. You starve them of water forcing them to be extremely dehydrated (in all seriousness it is less then to no worse than most pro athletes do for weigh ins or models to have pictures of them taken to look a certain way). Then you have a bucket of water. They want that water cause they are ******* dying so they eventually walk up to you for water. *Insert a few days to month cause each horse is different* Eventually after making them loose the fear they have for you they will start allowing you to touch them and walk close to them without the immediate reaction to **** you up. And still then they sometimes spook and someone winds up with cracked or broken ribs. This is where you start training them to pull or ride, lead or follow. It is a really dangerous thing to do. Especially when two horses who have been trained to lead start trying to get ahead of one another and you and your friend are riding them and start to laugh knowing what they are doing until they are both wildly sprinting and you are both just holding on for dear life hoping it doesn't hit a hole in the pasture killing you and/or the horse before it stops before tiring out. Good times I swear. I would like to have 5~7 levels of HP to shake that **** off if given the option but alas we are all NPC classed and level 1 in this world. Anyway, yeah I left some stuff out but taming and training a horse is ******* dangerous and should not be done by an idiot that watched a boob-tube video and read a self help article to boost their confidence. And subjecting the character you are running to it is pretty assholish to me, unless they have some kind of druid, ranger, profession: Horse Trainer, something more than just the catch all Handle Animal/Animal Handling cause that is usually how you use/father train an already broken animal and it can take a month easily to just break/domesticate an animal. Druids and Ranger have a magic rituals and get around that. Profession have to take time, as well as if you convinced someone and came to terms that Handle Animal does that, still it takes time and the animal is going to be very disagreeable for a while even after your supposed success moment. Animals like horses and cows are stupidly intelligent and it scares me sometimes.

I just wanted to say thank you for sharing your first hand experience.

[Norfleet]

I would like to have 5~7 levels of HP to shake that **** off if given the option but alas we are all NPC classed and level 1 in this world.

Heh, that's not really true either. When you hear of people who have survived ridiculous amounts of damage, beyond what can be explained by even a high Con modifier, you know THOSE guys have some serious class levels under their belt. Ain't no way Evil Knievel was a level 1 anything.

[WaterMage]

Not about spells.

Psionics(revised) in AD&D come very late to the game. Only on the Dark Sun Campaign Setting Revised. With MTHAC0, MAC, and PSP points regenerating 1/8 max PSP/h powers scaling with PSP invested up to the psion level, etc. If presented to the average 5e player, how much would it melt his brain?