Dragon Quest XII: Beyond Gay

[aweigh]

Blaming FF16 is absurd because it was not the first dark FF game. This is not a binary. There are levels here. What was unprecedented about FF16 was how gratuitous it was like a Western television show or videogame with cursing, sex scenes, homosexuality, gore, etc. A lot of people flocked to Asian entertainment because it wasn't that.

FF16's financial disappointment also due to a combination of factors, not just the gratuity. It was a Playstation 5 exclusive, as if we were still operating on an economic model from 20 years ago when that was no longer case. The Switch had long since supplanted Playstation as the console you bought if you wanted to play JRPGs, and it had also become expected that you would be able to play most JRPGs on PC (except for Nintendo exclusives like Xenoblade). The FF7 remake series has also suffered similarly in sales due to this exclusivity. FF16 also had forgettable aesthetics and alienating gameplay design such as no command based combat, no party, no world to explore, etc. It was developed by the FF14 dev team and the same game designers, and exhibits a lot of the same issues that FF14 players have complained about. Pointless sidequests. Empty zones. A lot of the runtime is squandered on excessive conversations that are not presented in an engaging manner. Etc. The game is not that fun outside of the godzilla battles.

beautiful summary of the many faults of ff16, in my opinion the single worst game Squeenix has ever made. Yes, worse than FF13. I'd also like to add that i think the kaiju battles are awful, though i'd like to really stress and hammer on the awful combat in ff16. it is the ONLY time in my life when i have felt a combat system prevented me from enjoying a game. I literally think skyrim combat is "fine", and i could not stand 16. My thumb got tired from pressing the button so much that i couldn't physically get through some segments without having to rest my thumb. (Though i also do have arthritis so, you know, but still).

A lot of meaningless exposition in conversation as well, lots of circular writing. I really hate 16. Some good graphics tho. i'm a big graphics *****.

Why were you hammering buttons? Most of the damage comes from the spells.

the 16 combat was bad

the best thing i can say about ff16 is that the first few hours were solid, in fact up until he cuts off Klupka's hands (probably misspelt his name). That was pretty shocking and energizing. but then the game just kinda peters off... put me to sleep. Needed some party members and a less action-y combat system. I'm not even asking for something silly like "should've been turn based!!!", the combat could've been similar to the Kingdom Hearts and FF7 Remake games, the so-called "command-menu combat". Even that would've been enough.

[J1M]

beautiful summary of the many faults of ff16, in my opinion the single worst game Squeenix has ever made. Yes, worse than FF13. I'd also like to add that i think the kaiju battles are awful, though i'd like to really stress and hammer on the awful combat in ff16. it is the ONLY time in my life when i have felt a combat system prevented me from enjoying a game. I literally think skyrim combat is "fine", and i could not stand 16. My thumb got tired from pressing the button so much that i couldn't physically get through some segments without having to rest my thumb. (Though i also do have arthritis so, you know, but still).

A lot of meaningless exposition in conversation as well, lots of circular writing. I really hate 16. Some good graphics tho. i'm a big graphics *****.

Why were you hammering buttons? Most of the damage comes from the spells.

the 16 combat was bad

the best thing i can say about ff16 is that the first few hours were solid, in fact up until he cuts off Klupka's hands (probably misspelt his name). That was pretty shocking and energizing. but then the game just kinda peters off... put me to sleep. Needed some party members and a less action-y combat system. I'm not even asking for something silly like "should've been turn based!!!", the combat could've been similar to the Kingdom Hearts and FF7 Remake games, the so-called "command-menu combat". Even that would've been enough.

It was almost like a rhythm game due to the diarrhea Christmas lights particle effects obscuring the screen during combat. And all of the dialog was 3x longer than it needed to be as characters repeated themselves to summarize the conversation we just witnessed and then restated their intentions after the summary in case you somehow forgot. Japanese studios are awful at writing. Probably why their most notable games have near-zero story/dialog.

[Mordred]

I don't love it don't get me wrong, it's still a 7/10, still not Final Fantasy, still not an RPG, etc, but I knew all that going into it since I played it on PC and read the discourse prior so I wasn't disappointed

FF16 Cid was ******* kino

wasnt ff16 the one with the geh kissing? i dewishlisted after that went public

Looks the same as everything else out of japan. Did japan change or did you?

that is an objectively false statement and you know that very well.

I was making a legitimate point in a signature way. I'm sure a lot of people were 13 when they liked some of this anime stuff and now at 24 they find it somewhat off-putting.

I do think it would be interesting to have someone explain what is good vs bad design in this style using similar-fidelity examples though. I can explain the subtleties of why ice cream or bread is good, but not Dragonball character designs.

How is: "Looks the same as everything else out of japan" a legitimate point?

Even when we only look at anime or games this does not hold up.

Out of my head currently running "Fist of the North Star" or "Jujutsu Kaisen" already invalidate this statement.
When we incorperate Games we can just pick some random capcom or fromsoft chars which also invalidate this statement.

What you wrote was simply ********.

[Valter]

wasnt ff16 the one with the geh kissing? i dewishlisted after that went public



that is an objectively false statement and you know that very well.

I was making a legitimate point in a signature way. I'm sure a lot of people were 13 when they liked some of this anime stuff and now at 24 they find it somewhat off-putting.

I do think it would be interesting to have someone explain what is good vs bad design in this style using similar-fidelity examples though. I can explain the subtleties of why ice cream or bread is good, but not Dragonball character designs.

How is: "Looks the same as everything else out of japan" a legitimate point?

Even when we only look at anime or games this does not hold up.

Out of my head currently running "Fist of the North Star" or "Jujutsu Kaisen" already invalidate this statement.
When we incorperate Games we can just pick some random capcom or fromsoft chars which also invalidate this statement.

What you wrote was simply ********.

He clarified he didn't mean it literally

[Mordred]

that does not change that he wrote ********.

[Valter]

I don't love it don't get me wrong, it's still a 7/10, still not Final Fantasy, still not an RPG, etc, but I knew all that going into it since I played it on PC and read the discourse prior so I wasn't disappointed

FF16 Cid was ******* kino

wasnt ff16 the one with the geh kissing? i dewishlisted after that went public

Looks the same as everything else out of japan. Did japan change or did you?

that is an objectively false statement and you know that very well.

I was making a legitimate point in a signature way. I'm sure a lot of people were 13 when they liked some of this anime stuff and now at 24 they find it somewhat off-putting.

I do think it would be interesting to have someone explain what is good vs bad design in this style using similar-fidelity examples though. I can explain the subtleties of why ice cream or bread is good, but not Dragonball character designs.

Basically he looks dead inside, it's the eyes man. He either hasn't slept for 30 days or is smoking that good ****. The hairstyle doesn't help but it's not the main culprit

Here's the previous DQ's characters, for reference.

[Mordred]

yeah the current mc looks miserable in the material so far.

i have sylvando flashbacks now it annoys me very much.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

It is a combination of many different things, not just the face but also the terribly modelled/textured outfit and its designed. But for the face specifically: He has sanpaku eyes combined with an eye window shape that is unusually wide/long but also oval which looks weak. He also has an unusually small width mouth, which is what moe girls usually have. And ofcourse, you have the shaved sides of his head.

For comparison with DQ11 characters: wide eyes, but rectangular shape so they look hard and strong. Mouth width is wider. Also okay hair and outfit.




Eye shape is oval similar to DQ12's MC, but here the width is not as wide. Mouth width is wider. And better hair and outfit.




Shorter width eyes with a hard straight line bottom to them. Wider mouth. Etc.

[aweigh]

god i loved DQ 11.

only DQ game i've finished 3 times.

[Norfleet]

And all of the dialog was 3x longer than it needed to be as characters repeated themselves to summarize the conversation we just witnessed and then restated their intentions after the summary in case you somehow forgot. Japanese studios are awful at writing. Probably why their most notable games have near-zero story/dialog.

It's not that Japanese studios are specifically awful at writing. It's because they are writing in Japanese, and this is how the Japanese actually talk, so when the dialogue is translated to English, perhaps a bit too faithfully in this case, this aspect of Japanese is retained. The entire "repeat back what was said" is just the way Japanese talk. WhiteSquare can confirm this.

[Val the Moofia Boss]

Cultural differences. The American preference is for shorter, "punchy" and "clever" lines. The most popular JRPG localizations take a Japanese script and Americanize that way, aka FFT and FF12 where every line in the American version is punchy.

[Vlajdimir Ermenović]

This is a game for brown people

[J1M]

"Cultural differences" isn't a magic spell that turns bad writing into good writing. "But the writers have never experienced good writing!" is just evidence that they aren't well-read. It's also not a good excuse for never thinking critically about the writing's impact on the overall game's pace when it is too repetitive.

[Tangerine]

"Cultural differences" isn't a magic spell that turns bad writing into good writing. "But the writers have never experienced good writing!" is just evidence that they aren't well-read. It's also not a good excuse for never thinking critically about the writing's impact on the overall game's pace when it is too repetitive.

You just don't understand why the goofy mascot character giving a eulogy is meant to be taken seriously.

[DecadeRiptide]

yeah the current mc looks miserable in the material so far.

i have sylvando flashbacks now it annoys me very much.

his music was funny

[DecadeRiptide]

wasnt ff16 the one with the geh kissing? i dewishlisted after that went public



that is an objectively false statement and you know that very well.

I was making a legitimate point in a signature way. I'm sure a lot of people were 13 when they liked some of this anime stuff and now at 24 they find it somewhat off-putting.

I do think it would be interesting to have someone explain what is good vs bad design in this style using similar-fidelity examples though. I can explain the subtleties of why ice cream or bread is good, but not Dragonball character designs.

Basically he looks dead inside, it's the eyes man. He either hasn't slept for 30 days or is smoking that good ****. The hairstyle doesn't help but it's not the main culprit

Here's the previous DQ's characters, for reference.

they look so much brighter and full of life.
dont know what the hell was going through their head with the new design

[rusty_shackleford]

Why were you hammering buttons? Most of the damage comes from the spells.

the 16 combat was bad

the best thing i can say about ff16 is that the first few hours were solid, in fact up until he cuts off Klupka's hands (probably misspelt his name). That was pretty shocking and energizing. but then the game just kinda peters off... put me to sleep. Needed some party members and a less action-y combat system. I'm not even asking for something silly like "should've been turn based!!!", the combat could've been similar to the Kingdom Hearts and FF7 Remake games, the so-called "command-menu combat". Even that would've been enough.

It was almost like a rhythm game due to the diarrhea Christmas lights particle effects obscuring the screen during combat. And all of the dialog was 3x longer than it needed to be as characters repeated themselves to summarize the conversation we just witnessed and then restated their intentions after the summary in case you somehow forgot. Japanese studios are awful at writing. Probably why their most notable games have near-zero story/dialog.

jap dialogue.png

[Tangerine]

Needs more random gasps.

[J1M]

the 16 combat was bad

the best thing i can say about ff16 is that the first few hours were solid, in fact up until he cuts off Klupka's hands (probably misspelt his name). That was pretty shocking and energizing. but then the game just kinda peters off... put me to sleep. Needed some party members and a less action-y combat system. I'm not even asking for something silly like "should've been turn based!!!", the combat could've been similar to the Kingdom Hearts and FF7 Remake games, the so-called "command-menu combat". Even that would've been enough.

It was almost like a rhythm game due to the diarrhea Christmas lights particle effects obscuring the screen during combat. And all of the dialog was 3x longer than it needed to be as characters repeated themselves to summarize the conversation we just witnessed and then restated their intentions after the summary in case you somehow forgot. Japanese studios are awful at writing. Probably why their most notable games have near-zero story/dialog.

Missing the part where a character summarizes what the first character said, then agrees, and the first person repeating that summarization before they both nod.

[rusty_shackleford]

Missing the part where a character summarizes what the first character said, then agrees, then the first person repeating the summarization before they both nod.

This is an actual thing Japanese people do in speaking apparently

[methoxetamine]

the 16 combat was bad

the best thing i can say about ff16 is that the first few hours were solid, in fact up until he cuts off Klupka's hands (probably misspelt his name). That was pretty shocking and energizing. but then the game just kinda peters off... put me to sleep. Needed some party members and a less action-y combat system. I'm not even asking for something silly like "should've been turn based!!!", the combat could've been similar to the Kingdom Hearts and FF7 Remake games, the so-called "command-menu combat". Even that would've been enough.

It was almost like a rhythm game due to the diarrhea Christmas lights particle effects obscuring the screen during combat. And all of the dialog was 3x longer than it needed to be as characters repeated themselves to summarize the conversation we just witnessed and then restated their intentions after the summary in case you somehow forgot. Japanese studios are awful at writing. Probably why their most notable games have near-zero story/dialog.

jap dialogue.png

[Tangerine]

Missing the part where a character summarizes what the first character said, then agrees, then the first person repeating the summarization before they both nod.

This is an actual thing Japanese people do in speaking apparently

They should stop doing that.

[J1M]

Missing the part where a character summarizes what the first character said, then agrees, then the first person repeating the summarization before they both nod.

This is an actual thing Japanese people do in speaking apparently

It is infuriating in games.

PS: I also don't want my game dialog to be like talking to the average person in the land of the rock, flag, and eagle either. I want it to be appropriate for a game.

[rusty_shackleford]

Missing the part where a character summarizes what the first character said, then agrees, then the first person repeating the summarization before they both nod.

This is an actual thing Japanese people do in speaking apparently

It is infuriating in games.

PS: I also don't want my game dialog to be like talking to the average person in the land of the rock, flag, and eagle either. I want it to be appropriate for a game.

Giving each character a unique style of speaking is probably difficult, I'd assume it's natural that the writer will always bleed thru. LLMs could probably be used to enforce a style guide.

[Oyster Sauce]

Missing the part where a character summarizes what the first character said, then agrees, then the first person repeating the summarization before they both nod.

This is an actual thing Japanese people do in speaking apparently

IRL they constantly do it while you're speaking instead of politely waiting for you to finish. It's toned down a lot in media for the sake of... audio channels maybe? I'm not actually sure.

[rusty_shackleford]

Missing the part where a character summarizes what the first character said, then agrees, then the first person repeating the summarization before they both nod.

This is an actual thing Japanese people do in speaking apparently

IRL they constantly do it while you're speaking instead of politely waiting for you to finish. It's toned down a lot in media for the sake of... audio channels maybe? I'm not actually sure.

Barbarians

[rusty_shackleford]

@Yuzo get in here and explain yourself

[Stack of Turtles]

Missing the part where a character summarizes what the first character said, then agrees, then the first person repeating the summarization before they both nod.

This is an actual thing Japanese people do in speaking apparently

IRL they constantly do it while you're speaking instead of politely waiting for you to finish. It's toned down a lot in media for the sake of... audio channels maybe? I'm not actually sure.

I see, so you're saying that the Japanese constantly repeat back what you said while you're speaking instead of staying politely silent like a westerner would. I agree that this is something the Japanese do.

[Oyster Sauce]

This is an actual thing Japanese people do in speaking apparently

IRL they constantly do it while you're speaking instead of politely waiting for you to finish. It's toned down a lot in media for the sake of... audio channels maybe? I'm not actually sure.

I see, so you're saying that the Japanese constantly repeat back what you said while you're speaking instead of staying politely silent like a westerner would. I agree that this is something the Japanese do.

Un

[J1M]

Missing the part where a character summarizes what the first character said, then agrees, then the first person repeating the summarization before they both nod.

This is an actual thing Japanese people do in speaking apparently

IRL they constantly do it while you're speaking instead of politely waiting for you to finish. It's toned down a lot in media for the sake of... audio channels maybe? I'm not actually sure.

That explains why they say nothing of consequence and have to repeat themselves. Thank you!